CRT training vlockies today, wrongly

[David Mack]

 

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

If a boat is moored on stakes on a shallow canal and boats pass at normal cruise speed, the stakes will likely be pulled out after the third boat!

On the Wey some years ago we came up on a boat very loosely moored on pins. Even though I slowed right down, the stern drifted out taking the mooring rope and pin with it. Just as we passed he came out of the stern doors, pulling his t shirt on over his head. A moment later she shot out of the bow doors, buttoning up her blouse. Obviously too interested in other things to moor up properly!

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, Goliath said:

If his crew had done it properly, the second lock would have been set ready for him to enter as soon as the first was empty. 
So I think in that respect he/they got it wrong. 
I would hope they got that sorted as they progressed down the flight. 
 

I think he should have vacated the lock and whipped his crew into action. 
 

All agreed.  Other than the possibility that there is yet another boat ahead and the boat frustrating you is being subjected to the same

 

[MtB]

43 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Its become fashionable, a contagious disease almost, to feel entitled to shout at or complain or pass comment on passing boats going too fast when moored, to the point that the expectation/target is the moored boat's movement is imperceptible.

 

 

I got bellowed at by some fishwife at Napton last year "TOO FAST, TICKOVER, TICKOVER" as I gently passed her boat. With my side doors open and she MUST have been able to see and hear the Kelvin hardly doing even 170 rpm. I asked her if she thought my engine could go any slower and she just glared at me.

 

Funny thing is I wasn't even in gear and I was going SO slow and just barely drifting past....

 

 

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I got bellowed at by some fishwife at Napton last year "TOO FAST, TICKOVER, TICKOVER" as I gently passed her boat. With my side doors open and she MUST have been able to see and hear the Kelvin hardly doing even 170 rpm. I asked her if she thought my engine could go any slower and she just glared at me.

 

Funny thing is I wasn't even in gear and I was going SO slow and just barely drifting past....

 

 

Best thing there is to reverse, then pass again but outrageously fast, something like 300rpm😱

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Best thing there is to reverse,

 

 

I do once in a while, if I get yelled at unnecessarily out of a side door and I'm in a bad mood. 

 

Last time it happend I slammed it into astern, stopped the boat and reversed right up to his side doors, but he slammed them shut and vanished inside. All I was going to do was say "Sorry mate, I couldn't hear a thing, what you were saying?"...

 

 

[cuthound]

16 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

Agreed. Its a shame it doesn't go both ways, in that everyone makes the best effort to tie up properly, so that a boat can go past full-speed and not be worried about moorers eg dropping a pan of boiling water over themselves etc.

 

My boat is moored to four bollards with spring lines when on its home mooring.

 

However when boats pass too fast, it visibly dips as the passing boat sucks the water out from under it, and when levels are low it can be heard graunching on the bottom.

 

So please slow down past moored boats, unless you know the depth of water, shape of the underwater canal, what the bottom is made of and how the boat is secured to the bank.

[Mike Todd]

23 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I didn’t say it was better. As I said, zero wind and no currents and a full pound so IMO it is not challenging to exit the lock and then cruise slowly towards the other lock. There is no need to wait for the other gate to be opened before leaving the lock.

 

The etiquette comes in not expecting people to stand around waiting for you to do something that you could do right now.

How did it inconvenience the other boater? Bearing in mind the other lock was by this time 3/4 full, it was not as if the boater would have to tie up on the lock landing (nor did he). He just did what I would have done which was to cruise slowly towards the lock until the gate was opened. 

I'm still a bit confused about how the boater letting you come down at that point would actually get you out of the bottom any quicker (or the intermediate mooring spot). Can you explain a bit more clearly?

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

My boat is moored to four bollards with spring lines when on its home mooring.

 

However when boats pass too fast, it visibly dips as the passing boat sucks the water out from under it, and when levels are low it can be heard graunching on the bottom.

 

So please slow down past moored boats, unless you know the depth of water, shape of the underwater canal, what the bottom is made of and how the boat is secured to the bank.

Do boats which go slower, also cause yours to visibly dip? But not touch the bottom? Maybe it’s that the mooring spot is just a bit too shallow; or your boat is too deep draughted for that mooring; or is just a poorly chosen spot. Quite cheap?

 

Also what is “too fast”? 5mph? Or a lower speed you’ve assigned for passing boats? Can smaller boats go faster past yours? Do boats need to slow down when yours is unoccupied too?

[frangar]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

Do boats which go slower, also cause yours to visibly dip? But not touch the bottom? Maybe it’s that the mooring spot is just a bit too shallow; or your boat is too deep draughted for that mooring; or is just a poorly chosen spot. Quite cheap?

 

Also what is “too fast”? 5mph? Or a lower speed you’ve assigned for passing boats? Can smaller boats go faster past yours? Do boats need to slow down when yours is unoccupied too?

Would you care to enlighten us with your boating history as you seem to have knowledge and experience far in excess of all of us put together….

[Captain Pegg]

5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Do boats which go slower, also cause yours to visibly dip? But not touch the bottom? Maybe it’s that the mooring spot is just a bit too shallow; or your boat is too deep draughted for that mooring; or is just a poorly chosen spot. Quite cheap?

 

Also what is “too fast”? 5mph? Or a lower speed you’ve assigned for passing boats? Can smaller boats go faster past yours? Do boats need to slow down when yours is unoccupied too?

It’s really simple. You slow down for all boats as requested by the navigation authority.

 

I’ll leave cuthound to explain why your questions are daft in his case.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[Jim Riley]

13 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s really simple. You slow down for all boats as requested by the navigation authority.

 

I’ll leave cuthound to explain why your questions are daft in his case.

Do the navigation authority specify what slow is? It isn't clear from the shouty boaters what constitutes "to fast" as @MtB pointed out. We could then avoid unnecessary arguement. 

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Do boats which go slower, also cause yours to visibly dip? But not touch the bottom? Maybe it’s that the mooring spot is just a bit too shallow; or your boat is too deep draughted for that mooring; or is just a poorly chosen spot. Quite cheap?

 

Also what is “too fast”? 5mph? Or a lower speed you’ve assigned for passing boats? Can smaller boats go faster past yours? Do boats need to slow down when yours is unoccupied too?

I wish I could get up to 5MPH on the canals I travel on

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Do the navigation authority specify what slow is? It isn't clear from the shouty boaters what constitutes "to fast" as @MtB pointed out. We could then avoid unnecessary arguement. 

No they just ask you to slow down and I think most people appreciate passing boaters simply making the effort.
 

An appropriate speed is different to every circumstance but the best indicator is to observe your own bow wash. It’s not that difficult to judge what is reasonable but it has very little to do with the status of the moored boat.

 

Generally though I’ve never found it hard to find a speed that seems to be acceptable to pretty much everyone I pass. The reason for that is because it isn’t difficult and most people are reasonable.

[cuthound]

49 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Do boats which go slower, also cause yours to visibly dip? But not touch the bottom? Maybe it’s that the mooring spot is just a bit too shallow; or your boat is too deep draughted for that mooring; or is just a poorly chosen spot. Quite cheap?

 

Also what is “too fast”? 5mph? Or a lower speed you’ve assigned for passing boats? Can smaller boats go faster past yours? Do boats need to slow down when yours is unoccupied too?

 

You are showing a compete lack of knowledge about boating and the effect that different types of boat have when passing moored boats.

 

No passing boats going slowly cause my boat to dip.

 

Smaller, lighter ones can go past a bit faster without causing it to dip, heavier, deeper draughts boats cause it to dip more at a given speed than lighter ones.

 

My local historic fuel boat when passing fully laden and doesn't cause my boat to dip and nor do the numerous deep draughts historic boats which moor nearby.

 

The mooring is about 3' 6" deep when the cut is at wier level, although it rapidly shallows after my mooring just before the adjacent bridge. The canal is well over 5' deep in the centre. My mooring is an end of garden mooring, so relatively cheap compared to a CRT on line mooring.

 

My mooring is on a common part of two popular cruising rings, so a lot of boats pass, especially this time of year.

 

95% plus of boats manage to pass without causing concern, it is just a few percent of peoe going too.fast which cause it to dip.

 

So it is just a few ignorant people who pass to fast.

Edited July 28, 2022 by cuthound
Clarification

[David Schweizer]

I have always assumed that the undewater profile of a boat can effect the amount of disturbance it cause when passing other boats. Helvetia, although deep draughted had very long graceful swims, and caused almost no wash at normal speeds. I always slowed when passing moored craft and rarely got shouted at.

[Jim Riley]

32 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

You are showing a compete lack of knowledge about boating and the effect that different types of boat have when passing moored boats.

 

No passing boats going slowly cause my boat to dip.

 

Smaller, lighter ones can go past a bit faster without causing it to dip, heavier, deeper draughts boats cause it to dip more at a given speed than lighter ones.

 

My local historic fuel boat when passing fully laden and doesn't cause my boat to dip and nor do the numerous deep draughts historic boats which moor nearby.

 

The mooring is about 3' 6" deep when the cut is at wier level, although it rapidly shallows after my mooring just before the adjacent bridge. The canal is well over 5' deep in the centre. My mooring is an end of garden mooring, so relatively cheap compared to a CRT on line mooring.

 

My mooring is on a common part of two popular cruising rings, so a lot of boats pass, especially this time of year.

 

95% plus of boats manage to pass without causing concern, it is just a few percent of peoe going too.fast which cause it to dip.

 

So it is just a few ignorant people who pass to fast.

What problem does this dippage cause? Is it worth worrying over if only a small percentage cause it? (And there I go, "an ill defined small percentage" some people claim or act as though 4% or so is a vast majority🤣🤣)

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

What problem does this dippage cause? Is it worth worrying over if only a small percentage cause it? (And there I go, "an ill defined small percentage" some people claim or act as though 4% or so is a vast majority🤣🤣)

 

Hopefully nothing, but I am concerned that if it is grating against an underwater rock or similar that the baseplate may wear more in that area and require overplaying earlier than it would otherwise.

[Paul C]

I am not sure its reassuring on not, that a lot of people do something "just because the navigation authority tell them to". And thank you, cuthound, for answering the questions as posed - I appreciate my post did come across a bit like a job interview. Its just that, with not being bothered about my online/internet status on this forum, I can pose those common questions which might be asked by those "on the other side". I think the others who have chosen to ask personal questions should question their own posting style (play the ball, not the player).

 

I am too young to remember the origin of the current trend to slow down past moored boats, I guess its an evolution from when boat ownership became popular, and the canals were used more and more for moorings rather than commercial travel. 1950s-1960s?

 

Its interesting that your bottom touches the canal, I understand a lot of EOG moorings are shallow - have you had a quote to spot dredge the area? Or looked into it?

[frangar]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

I am not sure its reassuring on not, that a lot of people do something "just because the navigation authority tell them to". And thank you, cuthound, for answering the questions as posed - I appreciate my post did come across a bit like a job interview. Its just that, with not being bothered about my online/internet status on this forum, I can pose those common questions which might be asked by those "on the other side". I think the others who have chosen to ask personal questions should question their own posting style (play the ball, not the player).

 

I am too young to remember the origin of the current trend to slow down past moored boats, I guess its an evolution from when boat ownership became popular, and the canals were used more and more for moorings rather than commercial travel. 1950s-1960s?

 

Its interesting that your bottom touches the canal, I understand a lot of EOG moorings are shallow - have you had a quote to spot dredge the area? Or looked into it?

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask you why you think you have all the answers…are you merely a bored teenager or do you have real experience that you can use to ask the questions? Some of your views and advice could be considered questionable at best if not actually dangerous…so don’t be shy…do tell…Oh and the bit about internet status is really funny. 

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I am not sure its reassuring on not, that a lot of people do something "just because the navigation authority tell them to". And thank you, cuthound, for answering the questions as posed - I appreciate my post did come across a bit like a job interview. Its just that, with not being bothered about my online/internet status on this forum, I can pose those common questions which might be asked by those "on the other side". I think the others who have chosen to ask personal questions should question their own posting style (play the ball, not the player).

 

I am too young to remember the origin of the current trend to slow down past moored boats, I guess its an evolution from when boat ownership became popular, and the canals were used more and more for moorings rather than commercial travel. 1950s-1960s?

 

Its interesting that your bottom touches the canal, I understand a lot of EOG moorings are shallow - have you had a quote to spot dredge the area? Or looked into it?

 

I've been boating in the canals since 1973 and the advice has always been to slow down past moored boats.

 

In the commercial carrying days, boats moored online during the day would have been unusual, so no need for them to slow down.

 

My boat only touches the bottom when the level is low and a boat speeds past. As I said the water is about 3' 6"' deep when the canal is at weir level. My boat draws about 30".

 

When I bought the house and asked CRT permission to develop the mooring (over 8 years ago), the mooring conditions document said they could not guarantee adequate depth, that it was my responsibility to dredge it using only CRT approved contractors, and that the minimum charge would be £6,000.

[Paul C]

Thank you cuthound, for the insight into the EOG mooring.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, David Schweizer said:

I have always assumed that the undewater profile of a boat can effect the amount of disturbance it cause when passing other boats. Helvetia, although deep draughted had very long graceful swims, and caused almost no wash at normal speeds. I always slowed when passing moored craft and rarely got shouted at.

 

It's not so much the visible wash that makes other boats move, that's just waves on the surface -- what has a much bigger effect is the volume of water that has to be pushed sideways out of the way and then pulled backwards past the moving hull as the boat goes past, and this mainly depends on the displacement of the passing boat and how fast it's going. The effect of this on the moored boat then also depends on how much water space is available for this water to move backwards through (wider/deeper = more water = slower = less boat movement), and also how much water there is under the moored boat (in case it gets pulled out from underneath).

 

The way to think about this is to imagine the passing boat with its bow just approaching the moored boat. Now move it forwards by one boat length, and one boat's worth of water (e.g. 20 tons or so) has to move back by one boat length from level with the moored boat to behind it (20t boat and 20t water swap places), this means there has to be a "slope" on the water surface which you can see, the level drops towards the stern of the moving boat -- so this pulls the moored boat backwards, and this can be pretty strong. Move the boat forwards another length so its just clear of the moored boat, and another 20t of water moves from in front of the moored boat to level with it and then stops, so the water surface slopes the other way, so the moored boat is pulled forwards (but less strongly).

 

The net effect is to pull the moored boat backwards strongly and then forwards more weakly as the moving boat passes, and it's this surge that causes most of the mooring problems, not the wash as such. Long swims do help with visible wash, with short swims this can make the problem worse because the water has to accelerate faster to get out of the way (so you get a surge forwards before the big surge back), but it's mainly boat displacement and speed that has the biggest effect -- especially speed... 😉

 

It's easy to see all this if you're travelling on a shallow/narrow canal (especially with piling or walling), you can see how the water level rises then drops at the bank by watching how much wet area appears as the boat passes, and then how the water comes back to level behind the boat. This can be several inches, and it's this "slope" on the water that pulls moored boats around as they always slide "downhill"...

 

(so with a blunt bow/short swims you get a pull forwards, then a strong pull backwards, then a pull forwards, bouncing the moored boat forwards and backwards against the ropes -- which is worse than with long swims where you mainly get just the pull backwards, which is weaker anyway)

Edited July 28, 2022 by IanD

[Captain Pegg]

There’s two different motions and I’m not convinced the displacement issue is the one that really upsets people. You can feel it when holding a boat on the centre line and someone goes past and although it can cause a lot of movement it doesn’t come with any great accelerations which is what causes discomfort. It can perhaps be an issue on loose mooring lines where movement will be arrested by the mooring lines going taut rather than the more gradual change in flow of the water.

 

On the other hand when a canoe goes past those fast moving surface waves cause some fairly rapid rolling and pitching.

[LadyG]

I dont usually get shouted at, but did so the other day, I was exiting a semi-urban lock and immediately there were two or three boats in a line, on bollards or rings, I asked if they were waiting to go in to the lock, but it turned out they were not.  I assume the lock landing was on the other side,  the first boater asked me if I was in a hurry, not catching his meaning, I smiled and said no, continued at a bit over tickover as I was not up to speed, said boater then ran after me and shouted at me, I may have not been in tickover, but I would have little or no steerage at tickover from stationary, I am pretty sure his boat did not move, certainly not moving as I went past him. 

I usually approach moored boats by cutting to an appropriate speed before I arrive, and adjust according to bow wave, ie no bow wave, but in this instance I am exiting the lock. They were on rings or bollards, not pins, I would think boats mooring against concrete on bollards would have a few fenders, I think he should rename his boat "Storm in a Teacup"

Edited July 28, 2022 by LadyG

[Paul C]

moorers perception of ideal speed = 0.7 x moving boat speed