CRT training vlockies today, wrongly

[Captain Pegg]

34 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I know that breaking wash was once a good test of not speeding but in today's context I would suggest that is no longer sufficient, especially with shallower canals such as the Oxford and with larger displacement boats. I think that most advice today is not just to observe speed limits but also to take into account the effect of your boat on those moored whom you are passing. I wasn't there so I don't know what happened but just speaking in general terms.

 

I am also somewhat easily annoyed by those who take delight at shouting 'slow down' to every passing boat as a sort of entertainment. Especially when I have been on tick over for several boat lengths! (And they did not move!)

 

I wonder what goes through the mind of some (near) permanent moorers. It must be stressful to fret about what other people are doing to the degree that some folk clearly do, especially those with multiple signs telling others how to boat or the (passive) aggressive signs that some love. These are the sort of folk you are better off avoiding in any walk of life. A few recent examples:

 

- approaching a boat the front doors open and a bloke peers out, simultaneously the side hatches open and a woman peers out. Both observe a boat proceeding at a speed they obviously deem satisfactory and retreat back inside, clearly lacking the manners to wait and greet me as I think would have been polite in the circumstances.

 

- rounding a sharp bend approaching the cottage and water point near bridge 5 on the north Stratford I see a bloke standing in his front doors waving his arms frantically, of course he was able to see me before I could see him. I wind back as a matter of course and Vulpes slows pretty quickly naturally so the guy calms down. At least he had the manners to stay and exchange a greeting.

 

- I draw alongside a moored boat on the Ashby and hear the clunk of a moving nappy pin. Bloke at kitchen sink looks up and instinctively shakes his head at me. I shout back that he has no business shaking his head as my speed is appropriate. Probably as a result of not hearing what i said he appears at the back deck where I am able to repeat what I'd said (and I didn't swear on either occasion). There was no response, given the circumstances were self-evident, and the exchange was not aggressive.

 

- approaching a moored boat on the south Stratford I choose to kick back the prop to clear the prop of some weed simultaneous with slowing down for the moored boat. At sound of a revving engine a woman shoots out the front and turns to look back with a massive scowl on her face. She sees an almost stationary boat and retreats back inside quickly.

 

These folk can't be happy in themselves, and I suggest it's because they don't do enough boating. One consequence of that is that they don't really have an appreciation of how to help themselves. I can't help thinking that the bloke on the Ashby tying up on nappy pins with lines at right angles to the boat on a canal with notoriously shallow sides even when it isn't 4 to 6 inches below level thought would happen when any boat went past.

 

I have never been told to slow down while steering Vulpes, the Ashby incident was the nearest I've had to that, so I generally conclude that if you genuinely slow down sufficiently folks won't still tell you to slow down further. More than once I've actually been asked to speed up to give some engine noise. I did get told to slow down with reason when steering another boat recently and that was a combination of me focussing on the lock ahead and neglecting to throttle back early enough combined with the fact I was steering a strangely configured boat that didn't really do 'slow'. It probably wasn't coincidence that I'd been delayed for seven hours earlier that day either. We're all human and any moored boat has to accept that occasionally a boat will go past inadvertently quickly.

 

The quickest I've ever been passed was undoubtedly when moored between Longford bridge and the Engine Inn (ironically within a short walk of our home) in October 1977 when a working boat - probably on the way home for tea at Sutton Stop - went past in the old style.

 

 

 

[Tacet]

If you are following the boat down the flight (with no other comings and goings) I think it would be reasonable for the ahead boat to wait in the empty lock until it could time its departure to arrive at the lower lock just as its gates were opening.   I.e. it is not unreasonable for it to avoid tying up in the pound - if it was necessary due to the wind for example.   If it sets off too early and needs to tie and untie, it will slow it - and probably you.

 

On the other hand, I don't think it should dither in the empty lock until the gates of the ahead lock are wide open; it can reasonably anticipate that event from, for example,  the drawing of paddles - all depending on the length of the intervening pound.

[davem399]

45 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

There are 5 of us, was it the Hudson one

 

I’m not sure, i didn’t pay much attention to the boat once I’d spotted the name.  It was all over quite quickly.

[nicknorman]

Perhaps another way of looking at is to answer the question:

 

”Where is the correct place to wait for a lock to be ready?”

A. Inside a different lock

B. On a lock landing or floating around.

 

Personally I’d go for B.

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, billS said:

 

But what does that gain?

 

If he waits in the lock and Nick is tied up at the top, then neither have to faff around hovering or tying up at the second lock landing. It seems more efficient and more pleasant tor me, and does not hinder the following boater in terms of clearing the flight.

 

 

There may be some legitimate reasons to stay in the lock - such as low pounds or strong winds - but If the boat stays in the first lock until the second lock is ready they will be more than one lock cycle ahead of the following boat so I think it's reasonable to expect them to move out to allow the lock to be filled, not least because at Atherstone they will be a lot quicker to empty the second lock than the following boat will be to fill the one they are waiting in, hence the gap between them will be maintained. This is where the volockies can do their job to make sure the lead boat has locks prepared ahead all the way. Then everybody benefits.

 

Personally I'd not try to sit in a lock that someone else could be using.

 

[Stroudwater1]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Perhaps another way of looking at is to answer the question:

 

”Where is the correct place to wait for a lock to be ready?”

A. Inside a different lock

B. On a lock landing or floating around.

 

Personally I’d go for B.

I agree completely, if no boats coming given 10am, it seems genuinely selfish not to clear out, otherwise a queue may develop higher up. I do usually stay in a lock if another boat is coming into the pound though , its easier just to sail by rather than faff with lines off or hover in uncertain depth. 

 

 

[Rob-M]

I'll exit a lock as soon as the gates are open unless a boat is coming my way in the next lock, in which case I will wait until they start coming out of their lock.  If I progress all Ng a pound before the gates are open on the next lock I will go slowly, drifting out of gear if required until the gates start opening.  If it is windy or a shallow pound I will steer up to the gates and hold the boat there.  The last thing I want to do is have to come in to a lock mooring and wait.

[Captain Pegg]

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Perhaps another way of looking at is to answer the question:

 

”Where is the correct place to wait for a lock to be ready?”

A. Inside a different lock

B. On a lock landing or floating around.

 

Personally I’d go for B.

 

A is fine but before you've completed the important bit of the operation not after it i.e. filling or emptying it.

 

When single handing I'll generally prep the one ahead before I wind the paddles on the lock I'm in, but other than the first lock of a flight I'll try my best not to use a lock landing at all. At Atherstone top, prepping the second lock is a bit of a pain because the third isn't visible so you have to take a trip to find out what's going on down the flight.

[PaulJ]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No, the levels were fine. It was low further down around lock 8.

Did you have any problems getting in and out of 8 or 9 as a matter of interest?

Bottom of 8 and top of 9-both wouldnt open fully -but I thought it was no different to any other time and definetley better than some times. 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Just a quick question on lock etiquette from today. We arrived at Atherstone top. A boat in front was draining the top lock. His crew had gone ahead to set the next lock which is maybe 50yds ahead. A volockie was in attendance on the bottom gates. By the time I got there, the bottom gates had been open for a while but the boat was still in the lock not moving. I kind of hinted that he might like to vacate the lock as we were behind but he indicated that he was waiting for the next lock to be set for him before leaving this one. Bearing in mind there was zero wind, no currents etc I thought this a bit unreasonable and hinted more strongly. “Oh well, if you INSIST, I’ll go” I said “I’m not INSISTING but it is normal practice, isn’t it?”. He left anyway.

 

So was I out of order expecting him to vacate the lock straight away, bearing in mind nothing coming the other way? I suppose in the great scheme of things it didn’t affect our progress much if at all, but it just seemed a bit selfish to cling on to the lock whilst we were standing around waiting to close the gates. What says the forum?

If his crew had done it properly, the second lock would have been set ready for him to enter as soon as the first was empty. 
So I think in that respect he/they got it wrong. 
I would hope they got that sorted as they progressed down the flight. 
 

I think he should have vacated the lock and whipped his crew into action. 
 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

If his crew had done it properly, the second lock would have been set ready for him to enter as soon as the first was empty. 
So I think in that respect he/they got it wrong. 
I would hope they got that sorted as they progressed down the flight. 
 

I think he should have vacated the lock and whipped his crew into action. 
 

 

 

Seconded. 

 

Curiously the situation only arose because he had crew bankside. Had it been a single hander, I can't imagine them opening the bottom gate, leaving the boat in there and sauntering off to set the next lock. I'm sure I'd have steered my boat up to the next lock immediately, whether or not it was set in my favour, and you too I'd imagine.

[PaulJ]

4 minutes ago, Goliath said:

If his crew had done it properly, the second lock would have been set ready for him to enter as soon as the first was empty. 
So I think in that respect he/they got it wrong. 
 

 

To be fair -when I got there the vollies asked me if I minded going down top lock slowly as they were asking people to at least start filling the lock below and then emptying using one paddle.

But having done that I was out of the lock (no one behind) and went and had a chat to the lady fisherman while I was hovering waiting for the gate to open on the next 😀

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I had a similar thing today coming down Farmers Bridge but of course I was on my own and there’s a few pounds without bollards and the locks are very close together so I did stay in my lock until I had the other set and ready to go in. 
I was keeping up with the boat in front because he was raising a paddle for me. 

And he was on the tail of another boat in front of him. 
Another boat caught me up. 
But me vacating the lock that they wanted to set in advance would have slowed me because I would have had to faff about a lot. 

if no boats were in front I would have happily let them pass me in a pound. 
 

If any of that makes sense. 
 

Also, because I kind of know the locks, I’m ok with starting my lock off with the boat going down and then setting the next lock while the first empties, so not too much of a hinderance. 
 

And another thing, those locks on the Farmers Bridge Flight are not very single hander user friendly, with the ladders on the opposite side. 

 

18 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

To be fair -when I got there the vollies asked me if I minded going down top lock slowly as they were asking people to at least start filling the lock below and then emptying using one paddle.

But having done that I was out of the lock (no one behind) and went and had a chat to the lady fisherman while I was hovering waiting for the gate to open on the next 😀

 

Ah ha, the other side of the story. 
👍

[Paul C]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Just a quick question on lock etiquette from today. We arrived at Atherstone top. A boat in front was draining the top lock. His crew had gone ahead to set the next lock which is maybe 50yds ahead. A volockie was in attendance on the bottom gates. By the time I got there, the bottom gates had been open for a while but the boat was still in the lock not moving. I kind of hinted that he might like to vacate the lock as we were behind but he indicated that he was waiting for the next lock to be set for him before leaving this one. Bearing in mind there was zero wind, no currents etc I thought this a bit unreasonable and hinted more strongly. “Oh well, if you INSIST, I’ll go” I said “I’m not INSISTING but it is normal practice, isn’t it?”. He left anyway.

 

So was I out of order expecting him to vacate the lock straight away, bearing in mind nothing coming the other way? I suppose in the great scheme of things it didn’t affect our progress much if at all, but it just seemed a bit selfish to cling on to the lock whilst we were standing around waiting to close the gates. What says the forum?

 

 

 

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Perhaps another way of looking at is to answer the question:

 

”Where is the correct place to wait for a lock to be ready?”

A. Inside a different lock

B. On a lock landing or floating around.

 

Personally I’d go for B.

 

Normally its (B) but I think, and I'm sure someone will correct me, the net effect of waiting in one lock for the next to be ready in a flight, would have been no time delay to a following boat, because the original amount of delay in the waiting, is neutralised by the time saving by not needing to moor/unmoor on the lock landing, for both the first boat and any subsequent boats which are then 'aligned' with the sequence.

 

I think there's a better way still, which is to exit the lock then judge the speed so its sufficiently slow to arrive just in time as the next lock is full/empty and the gates are only just swung open. Depending on the preparedness of the next lock and the length of the pound, this could result in a VERY slow speed needed to be done. In this instance, it would have been more efficient to exit the lock then stop the boat at the narrowest point in the pound - probably the lock mouth of either of the locks. By stopping at the narrowest point, the boat, if it swings away from aligned with the next lock, would be at the least angle away and needs the least correction. And if the lock mouth is the next lock (ie front of boat in lock mouth), that can be diligently used to 'hold' the front aligned and get the stern/rest of the boat straight.

 

ETA: did the first boat shut his own gate, or leave it to Nick('s crew)? He should be shutting the gate. If going uphill, it is pretty easy to do if its one person driving, by putting in reverse just as the boat comes out the lock, stepping off and allowing the boat to go but then come back to collect the driver.

 

ETA2: on the subject of "slow down past moored boats" - where does this come from? There is no underlying legislation to support it and its possible to tie up sufficiently well so a canal boat going past at normal cruising speed causes insignificant (normal, boaty) movement. It was certainly the case hundreds of years ago, when a working boat was (rarely) moored up, other working boats didn't slow down past it. Or did the natural effect of having the tow rope need to go slack then it being raised clear of the moored boat, slow it a little?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Paul C

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, PaulJ said:

Did you have any problems getting in and out of 8 or 9 as a matter of interest?

Bottom of 8 and top of 9-both wouldnt open fully -but I thought it was no different to any other time and definetley better than some times. 

 

One of 8’s bottom gates was seriously “not fully open” but in fact we exited without problem. I guess the lock is fairly wide. Levels both above and below 8 were well down, that was our main concern!

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, PaulJ said:

To be fair -when I got there the vollies asked me if I minded going down top lock slowly as they were asking people to at least start filling the lock below and then emptying using one paddle.

But having done that I was out of the lock (no one behind) and went and had a chat to the lady fisherman while I was hovering waiting for the gate to open on the next 😀

 

The Atherstone volockies have a thing about that, but it is misguided because the lower pounds are often short of water and sending a bit more down from the top is a good thing. But in fact, thinking about it, the same amount of water is taken out of the top pound and the only difference is a slightly reduced level in the first pound down. A typical case of micromanaging volockies wanting to make their mark, pointless though it is. Of course once the micromanaging back seat driving volockies are out of sight, normal practice is resumed so it is completely pointless except for their power kick.

 

Anyway, in this specific case the top lock was already empty when I arrived

58 minutes ago, Goliath said:

 

Ah ha, the other side of the story. 
👍

Not relevant in the specific case I am talking about, and anyway not relevant in any logical sort of way at any time, just a volockie invention.

[nicknorman]

58 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

 

 

 

Normally its (B) but I think, and I'm sure someone will correct me, the net effect of waiting in one lock for the next to be ready in a flight, would have been no time delay to a following boat, because the original amount of delay in the waiting, is neutralised by the time saving by not needing to moor/unmoor on the lock landing, for both the first boat and any subsequent boats which are then 'aligned' with the sequence.

 

I think there's a better way still, which is to exit the lock then judge the speed so its sufficiently slow to arrive just in time as the next lock is full/empty and the gates are only just swung open. Depending on the preparedness of the next lock and the length of the pound, this could result in a VERY slow speed needed to be done. In this instance, it would have been more efficient to exit the lock then stop the boat at the narrowest point in the pound - probably the lock mouth of either of the locks. By stopping at the narrowest point, the boat, if it swings away from aligned with the next lock, would be at the least angle away and needs the least correction. And if the lock mouth is the next lock (ie front of boat in lock mouth), that can be diligently used to 'hold' the front aligned and get the stern/rest of the boat straight.

 

ETA: did the first boat shut his own gate, or leave it to Nick('s crew)? He should be shutting the gate. If going uphill, it is pretty easy to do if its one person driving, by putting in reverse just as the boat comes out the lock, stepping off and allowing the boat to go but then come back to collect the driver.

 

ETA2: on the subject of "slow down past moored boats" - where does this come from? There is no underlying legislation to support it and its possible to tie up sufficiently well so a canal boat going past at normal cruising speed causes insignificant (normal, boaty) movement. It was certainly the case hundreds of years ago, when a working boat was (rarely) moored up, other working boats didn't slow down past it. Or did the natural effect of having the tow rope need to go slack then it being raised clear of the moored boat, slow it a little?

Your ETA: No the first boat didn’t shut his gate, but to be fair he was anticipating the volockie doing it. Of course volockies are not allowed to step over bottom gates so it would have taken a while to walk round, but obviously I walked up to the other side gate to close it. And we were going downhill. We often offer to close gates behind a boat in front because it is much more efficient for their crew to go ahead

 

ETA2 There is no “legal requirement” but I think nearly everyone thinks it is courteous. Within reason of course, the moored party needs to be reasonably well moored too. If a boat is moored on stakes on a shallow canal and boats pass at normal cruise speed, the stakes will likely be pulled out after the third boat!

[Paul C]

Moored on pins is a particular case, granted. But if its rings or goat chains or nappy pins....in theory that boat should be secure to the point of the strength of the ropes or boat fittings (or maybe the piling, if it were damaged). 

 

It would be handy to know if a boat is unoccupied - there is no negative to going past at full speed, unless the crockery is arranged haphazardly like on frangar's boat. But alas, there is no easy way of telling from a distance if a boat is occupied or not.

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, PaulJ said:

To be fair -when I got there the vollies asked me if I minded going down top lock slowly as they were asking people to at least start filling the lock below and then emptying using one paddle.

But having done that I was out of the lock (no one behind) and went and had a chat to the lady fisherman while I was hovering waiting for the gate to open on the next 😀

 

This is how it should be done, in a flight with short pounds always fill the lock below before emptying the one you are in. Saves water going over the bywash.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

This is how it should be done, in a flight with short pounds always fill the lock below before emptying the one you are in. Saves water going over the bywash.

Yes it saves water going over the bywash. But whether that is significant depends…

In the case of Atherstone, yes a bit of water goes over the bywash, and a bit more water goes over the next bywash… But that is a good thing, because the pounds further down leak and are always low on water. There is a valve at the top of Atherstone to let water down bypassing the top lock. This is necessarily open a bit most of the time to keep the lower pounds navigable. Of course it would be better if the lower pounds around lock 8 didn’t leak - but they do, and have done for years.

[Paul C]

30 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

............... I think nearly everyone thinks it is courteous.............

 

Agreed. Its a shame it doesn't go both ways, in that everyone makes the best effort to tie up properly, so that a boat can go past full-speed and not be worried about moorers eg dropping a pan of boiling water over themselves etc.

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Agreed. Its a shame it doesn't go both ways, in that everyone makes the best effort to tie up properly, so that a boat can go past full-speed and not be worried about moorers eg dropping a pan of boiling water over themselves etc.

I think you have to bear in mind that quite large forces can be involved. If a boat on rings etc is tied up tightly, not much momentum can develop but the local level still drops a fair bit so that the boat is briefly partially suspended by the mooring lines and will tip. And of course for a boat moored unattended for a prolonged period (up to 14 days is allowed) a general change in level is not uncommon, which can either leave the boat partially suspended by the mooring lines (a large static load) or with slack lines that allow the boat to move and build up momentum resulting in a very large snatch load on the mooring lines.

 

I don’t have a problem with slowing down for moored boats so long as they do their bit too and moor sensibly. In particular I resent boats on on-line permanent moorings (attached to rings etc) that are badly moored with eg several feet of slack in the lines, or lines at 90 degrees. I do sometimes tend to go a bit faster past permanent moorings vs causal moorings, because there is less excuse for the former to be badly moored.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

In particular I resent boats on on-line permanent moorings (attached to rings etc) that are badly moored with eg several feet of slack in the lines, or lines at 90 degrees. I do sometimes tend to go a bit faster past permanent moorings vs causal moorings, because there is less excuse for the former to be badly moored.

 

I see it the same way. In fact whenever I go past permanent moorings I think to myself "No matter how fast or slow I'm going, several boats a day will go past a good deal faster." In fact the odd one occasionally will totally fly past at full speed.  This is based on my experiences when aboard on my own on-line moorings.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by MtB
Add a bit.

[PaulJ]

50 minutes ago, Loddon said:

This is how it should be done, in a flight with short pounds always fill the lock below before emptying the one you are in. Saves water going over the bywash.

Its how I always do it anyhow.

Downside to it is , as happened going up Whilton , is as I walk back to get the boat some plonker turns it back around and fills the lock back up again 🤢

[Paul C]

Its become fashionable, a contagious disease almost, to feel entitled to shout at or complain or pass comment on passing boats going too fast when moored, to the point that the expectation/target is the moored boat's movement is imperceptible. When really, those who moor online should accept that there will be some kind of movement, a not unpleasant one, and that their style of mooring greatly influences this. I am talking to you, middle rope moorers.