Dutch barge style narrowboats

[jupiter1124]

What do you reckon?

 

I know they aren't authentic. I know there is a fair amount of tutting on boats lacking tumblehome due to possible infrastructure damage. And I get that there are probably fewer builders out there who would want to take it on (and would likely charge a premium for them).

 

Never been on one but I love the look of them. Especially when they have a vertical bow and long sweeping gunwales that start high and then dip low in the middle. And having a wheelhouse just feels like it would be a great use of space.

 

Anyone have any experience of them? How do they handle? I imagine they would be better than narrowboats at estuary crossings and maybe even coastal cruising, not that I have any experience of that but I understand dutch barges cross the north sea pretty regular like?

[Tony1]

 

I don't have any experience of them but I agree with you that they are a truly lovely sight to behold. Its a matter of personal taste of course, but I find their lines much more appealing than any narrowboat.

The ones that will be capable of a channel crossing (in mild weather) will be those with a V shaped hull, like this one:

 

https://www.dutch-barges.net/katherine.html

 

The dutch barges that have flat bottoms like narrowboats will be just as unsafe as a normal narrowboat in a channel crossing. 

 

I tend to think of the flat-bottom ones as narrowboats (or widebeams) that are styled as dutch barges, and for some reason that limits their appeal to me personally.

The ones I think of as dutch barges are the ones with a more V shaped hull. But with a draft approaching 3ft, there might be issues cruising some canals. 

 

 

 

[MrsM]

I absolutely love a Dutch barge style widebeam, or even better a real Dutch barge, but haven't seen a narrow beam one I like ... yet.

[Bargebuilder]

20 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

The ones I think of as dutch barges are the ones with a more V shaped hull.

Although most genuine Dutch Barges were largely flat bottomed of course!

 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I absolutely love a Dutch barge style widebeam, or even better a real Dutch barge, but haven't seen a narrow beam one I like ... yet.

 

Agreed. They look like a 'proper' Dutch barge replica thats been squished in a very big vice.

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Although most genuine Dutch Barges were largely flat bottomed of course!

 

 

 

Well I'm certainly not going to contradict a barge builder 😄

Its just the way I personally think of them, as I said.

I do love the lines of the ones where the stern sweeps inward down to the waterline. 

The dutch barges seen on UK canals are probably no more authentic than a 'trad' narrowboat built in 1995 that has 'fake' rivets in the hull, and the names of long gone trading companies painted on the side- but I spent many months dreaming of owning a barge like Timothy Spall's, that could do some coastal cruising or cross the channel, and in my mind that has become fixed as the idea of a proper dutch barge - and I dont really care what the actual dutch say!

 

[jupiter1124]

54 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

The ones that will be capable of a channel crossing (in mild weather) will be those with a V shaped hull

Is that really the case though, my understanding is that flat bottoms are actually more resistant to rolling because when a corner dips there is more buoyancy in that corner, and when a corner is raised there is more weight out of the water?

 

Although it would look particularly ridiculous on a narrowbeam, what about adding those rotating leeboards?

 

 

44 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Dutch barge, but haven't seen a narrow beam one I like

 

I don't know, the widebeam Dutch barges are much more attractive than the narrowbeam ones, but I find the narrowbeam Dutch barges much more attractive than British narrowboats.

 

 

It's probably just a pipe dream but I am enamoured with the idea of a boat in the dimensions of the narrow English waterways but still designed to be capable of safely navigating lumpy water, imagine being able to cruise from Llangollen to Lyon. Or even all the way down to the Black Sea!

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Although it would look particularly ridiculous on a narrowbeam, what about adding those rotating leeboards?

 

 

And a mast and sail

7 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

 

It's probably just a pipe dream but I am enamoured with the idea of a boat in the dimensions of the narrow English waterways but still designed to be capable of safely navigating lumpy water, imagine being able to cruise from Llangollen to Lyon. Or even all the way down to the Black Sea!

Its been done, mind you one of them sank

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Is that really the case though, my understanding is that flat bottoms are actually more resistant to rolling because when a corner dips there is more buoyancy in that corner, and when a corner is raised there is more weight out of the water?

 

Although it would look particularly ridiculous on a narrowbeam, what about adding those rotating leeboards?

 

 

 

I don't know, the widebeam Dutch barges are much more attractive than the narrowbeam ones, but I find the narrowbeam Dutch barges much more attractive than British narrowboats.

 

 

It's probably just a pipe dream but I am enamoured with the idea of a boat in the dimensions of the narrow English waterways but still designed to be capable of safely navigating lumpy water, imagine being able to cruise from Llangollen to Lyon. Or even all the way down to the Black Sea!

 

The question of how seaworthy the various hulls are I will leave to the experts, I'm just assuming based on the fact that most ocean-going boats I've seen do not have flat bottoms. 

 

I did have this dream of cruising a boat across the channel and down through Europe, but now that we are limited to 3 months from every 6, it doesnt seem feasible, or at least enjoyable, to guarantee getting your boat out of the schengen zone by a certain date. People do it in motorhomes, but a boat is a different matter.

If you are able to claim nationality of an Eu country that will open all the borders to you and remove all the restrictions, but thats not very easy. I recently discovered that there is a small chance I might be eligible to claim Dutch nationality, so if that comes up trumps then my next step, in about 2 years time, might be to sell up and buy a GRP boat in france to live on the European canals. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, Tony1 said:

 

The question of how seaworthy the various hulls are I will leave to the experts, I'm just assuming based on the fact that most ocean-going boats I've seen do not have flat bottoms. 

 

 

 

 

Look at most tankers and other large ships today 

[Tony1]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Look at most tankers and other large ships today 

Does that design principle also apply with the seaworthines of 50ft vessels? 

 

[blackrose]

Flat bottomed but not hard chined like most slab sided UK narrowboats and widebeams. 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Is that really the case though, my understanding is that flat bottoms are actually more resistant to rolling because when a corner dips there is more buoyancy in that corner, and when a corner is raised there is more weight out of the water?

 

You need to carefully consider the downflooding angle and the calssification of the boat.

Inland waterways boats are "Cat D" and are unsafe to go 'on the open sea'

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Does that design principle also apply with the seaworthines of 50ft vessels? 

 

No idea, it was in reply to "ocean-going boats I've seen do not have flat bottoms. "

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Inland waterways boats are "Cat D" and are unsafe to go 'on the open sea'

 

 

 

 

Shouldn't that be MAY BE unsafe to go to sea, just because it was built for inland waterways doesn't mean it wasn't built to a standard that would make it safe, just it hasn't been surveyed and got a piece of paper to say so.

[Bargebuilder]

23 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Is that really the case though, my understanding is that flat bottoms are actually more resistant to rolling because when a corner dips there is more buoyancy in that corner, and when a corner is raised there is more weight out of the water?

In practice, flat bottomed barges often roll like pigs in a beam sea. A 'V' profile hull is more likely to rise and fall as beam waves pass underneath rather than roll horribly. Try bringing a Tjalk over from Holland if you need convincing.

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

No idea, it was in reply to "ocean-going boats I've seen do not have flat bottoms. "

Shouldn't that be MAY BE unsafe to go to sea, just because it was built for inland waterways doesn't mean it wasn't built to a standard that would make it safe, just it hasn't been surveyed and got a piece of paper to say so.

 

Whilst its interesting to see that modern big  ships have flattish bottoms, I'm really talking about boats here, not ships- so an answer relevant to boats would be more helpful, and even more interesting. 

 

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Whilst its interesting to see that modern big  ships have flattish bottoms, I'm really talking about boats here, not ships- so an answer relevant to boats would be more helpful, and even more interesting. 

 

In fairness, he did say boats and not ships, so he is probably largely right.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

No idea, it was in reply to "ocean-going boats I've seen do not have flat bottoms. "

Shouldn't that be MAY BE unsafe to go to sea, just because it was built for inland waterways doesn't mean it wasn't built to a standard that would make it safe, just it hasn't been surveyed and got a piece of paper to say so.

 

It is always possible that someone would/could build a canal boat for Cat B or Cat A waters, but it would be very difficult to meet the requirements with a NB

 

Even Cat C with 2 metre waves and force 6 winds would be a 'little worrying' in a flat bottomed NB

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony1]

19 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

In fairness, he did say boats and not ships, so he is probably largely right.

 

I disagree. He said the word boats, but the example given was of a ship, not a boat.

(Or at least not in a boat in the sense that the OP and myself were using the word. 

As I said, it is certainly interesting to see how flat the bottoms of these big ships are, and its a positive sign that they are largely flat, but the specific issue that myself and the OP were trying to focus in on was whether a flat bottomed boat (of the size and type that could cruise our canals) was as seaworthy as a similarly sized boat that does not have a flat bottom, so any clarification on that would be really interesting. 

I'm guessing we would have to be talking about a widebeam canal boat, but as I said I know almost nothing of the subject.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Tony1

[Bargebuilder]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I disagree. He said the word boats, but the example given was of a ship, not a boat.

(Or at least not in a boat in the sense that the OP and myself were using the word. 

As I said, it is certainly interesting to see how flat the bottoms of these big ships are, and its a positive sign that they are largely flat, but the specific issue that myself and the OP were trying to focus in on was whether a flat bottomed boat (of the size and type that could cruise our canals) was as seaworthy as a similarly sized boat that does not have a flat bottom, so any clarification on that would be really interesting. 

I'm guessing we would have to be talking about a widebeam canal boat, but as I said I know almost nothing of the subject.

 

I'm not sure above what size a boat becomes a ship, but certainly there are replica Dutch style barges that would fit on our wide canals that are capable of being built to RCD Cat B; Branson's 'Thomas' for example. This would be a very competent coastal and Channel crossing vessel, but like all wide beams, in my opinion, not well suited to regular cruising even on our wide beam canals, but great on wider rivers and estuaries.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm not sure above what size a boat becomes a ship

 

The general 'rule of thumb' is that a ship will carry many boats, but a boat cannot carry a ship.

 

Technically speaking, a mode of water transport that weighs at least 500 tonnes or above is categorised as a ship. In comparison, boats are stipulated to be quite compact in their structural size and displacement.

[Tam & Di]

50 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

The question of how seaworthy the various hulls are I will leave to the experts, I'm just assuming based on the fact that most ocean-going boats I've seen do not have flat bottoms.

What ocean-going boats are you talking about? Do you actually mean 'ocean-going' anyway? - there is quite a difference between a short-sea crossing from the UK to the continent and  trip UK - USA. River/sea cruisers do tend to have a shaped bottom, but barge-style vessels have flat bottoms with rounded chines in the same way as the ship ditchcrawler put up, and you seem to be jumbling up the two very different style vessels. As far as I know Branson boats such as Katherine have flat bottoms too, though they do market a 'coaster' style which may be more what you have in mind. However these would be too deep drafted for most canals, even continental ones.

 

Tam

[Bargebuilder]

13 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

What ocean-going boats are you talking about? Do you actually mean 'ocean-going' anyway? - there is quite a difference between a short-sea crossing from the UK to the continent and  trip UK - USA. River/sea cruisers do tend to have a shaped bottom, but barge-style vessels have flat bottoms with rounded chines in the same way as the ship ditchcrawler put up, and you seem to be jumbling up the two very different style vessels. As far as I know Branson boats such as Katherine have flat bottoms too, though they do market a 'coaster' style which may be more what you have in mind. However these would be too deep drafted for most canals, even continental ones.

 

Tam

No part of the Branson Thomas barge hull is flat, although it is quite a shallow 'V'. I believe that it's draft is about a metre, so okay for most wide canals when levels are normal and certainly capable of crossing the Channel in appropriate weather.

[Tony1]

6 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

What ocean-going boats are you talking about? Do you actually mean 'ocean-going' anyway? - there is quite a difference between a short-sea crossing from the UK to the continent and  trip UK - USA. River/sea cruisers do tend to have a shaped bottom, but barge-style vessels have flat bottoms with rounded chines in the same way as the ship ditchcrawler put up, and you seem to be jumbling up the two very different style vessels. As far as I know Branson boats such as Katherine have flat bottoms too, though they do market a 'coaster' style which may be more what you have in mind. However these would be too deep drafted for most canals, even continental ones.

 

Tam

 

The phrase 'ocean going' is not a clear expression of what I had in mind.

I am thinking about the sort of boat that would be capable of crossing the channel, or perhaps even the north sea, as many dutch barges have done. Or perhaps even cruise around the UK coasts in moderate weather, as Tim Spall did in his barge (although I dont know if his barge was able to cruise any canals). 

Most of the yachts I've seen do not have flat bottoms, nor do the offshore power boats, so my presumption was that a flat bottomed hull would not be well suited to  say a channel crossing, in a boat of about 50 or 60ft. 

The Katherine class has the potential to cross the channel as a category C vessel, but has a mostly rounded hull bottom from what I can tell, with perhaps a flattish section, but it also has a draft of 2.8ft, so it would be ok to cruise places like the Thames, but the OP was wondering if something like the Katherine could also cruise any of the canals, or indeed if any other boat could do this kind of thing. 

 

 

[Tam & Di]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

No part of the Branson Thomas barge hull is flat, although it is quite a shallow 'V'.

They do market Thomas as a specific vessel. Katherine does have a long skeg but looks otherwise to be flat.

 

Tam