Cooling tank losing water

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The lowest pipe just below the immersion heater is the DOMESTIC water cold inlet so that won't have anything to do with the cooling system.

 

You do have a full width engine drip tray but, assuming the boat trims down by the stern, luckily it is clean enough to say a cooling leak is unlikely to be leaking into it and that includes from the small overflow hose.

 

I agree there is some staining on the calorifier insulation but for the leak you describe it does not look dirty enough. If this is a long term thing I would expect to see antifreeze coloured stains on the pipe work and down the calorifier. Tomorrow morning I would top up and run while keeping a close eye on those coil connections, there should be two pairs of two, but I don't know which pair is for the engine. Also follow the pipes back to the engine looking at every joint.

No, I mean the lower right hand side pipe which is above the immersion element. Would it help if I bound all the pipes with loo roll, as this would show any moisture.

I thought of a drip tray as something one removed every so often to empty.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by LadyG

[LadyG]

On 20/07/2022 at 18:14, bizzard said:

I suggest removing the filler cap from the header, fill to about half, start the engine, run up to normal temp. Keep blipping the throttle whilst watching the coolant reaction in the header filler, if air is trapped it will bubble up and bounce up and down and disperse the bubbles, keep topping up if that happens. Sniff for any engine exhaust fumes emitting from the header filler, keep alert though in case it errupts in your face. If air bubbles continue errupting for a long time there's something wrong. If any bubbles cease, top up to your usual level and replace the filler cap.

I've been topping up since the days when I let it get too low, there was a lot of gurgling at first, but not any more, I'm not sure if this test is going to be relevant at the moment.

I think I may have been adding too much, the level it settles to is covering the metal I can see, maybe an inch, 

7 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Never will unfortunately but thanks for the thought.

 

Has LadyG really had a good look for a leak? Water pump, calorifier internal coil, concealed pipework, engine hoses, radiator cap, expansion bottle and cap, et al.?

Not a full look, oh dear ....

Edited August 1, 2022 by LadyG

[LadyG]

8 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think photos are going to help in this case. We know what she has got and what is reported as happening. The only thing we do not know are the results of the "find the correct coolant level" test I posted and what happens after subsequent runs up to temperature & cooling down again. It that shows definite coolant loss the next step is a cooling system pressure test, but goodness knows how many canal engineers have the kit to do one.

I think it's all right, that is to say, I think I've found the correct level, but when I was on the river I was concerned that it would overheat, and cause panic stations, I'm now back on a canal. There are boats, there are people, and a Happy Eater!

There is even a boatyard, correction it's a marina, but they might know someone who is prepared to work on my boat.

Edited August 1, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

No, I mean the lower right hand side pipe which is above the immersion element. Would it help if I bound all the pipes with loo roll, as this would show any moisture.

I thought of a drip tray as something one removed every so often to empty.

 

 

On GRP and wooden boats possibly, as long as you can get it out from under the engine, on metal boats it is normally just part of the hull that contains any oil drips so pumping the actual bilge does not cause pollution.

 

It may help it you wrap toilet paper t kitchen towel around the suspect leaks as long as you keep checking it as the temperature rises.

 

In respect of this problem I am not concerned about the state of the small triangular bilge below the stern gland, although it could do with cleaning, but I know that when you are getting on a bit (sorry) that is not as easy as in years gone by.

 

It is the fact that you seem to have suffered an overheat on the river that concerns me in respect of the correct coolant level, although that might be caused by an undersized skin tank. Especially if the problem goes away on canals.

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[LadyG]

51 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

On GRP and wooden boats possibly, as long as you can get it out from under the engine, on metal boats it is normally just part of the hull that contains any oil drips so pumping the actual bilge does not cause pollution.

 

It may help it you wrap toilet paper t kitchen towel around the suspect leaks as long as you keep checking it as the temperature rises.

 

In respect of this problem I am not concerned about the state of the small triangular bilge below the stern gland, although it could do with cleaning, but I know that when you are getting on a bit (sorry) that is not as easy as in years gone by.

 

It is the fact that you seem to have suffered an overheat on the river that concerns me in respect of the correct coolant level, although that might be caused by an undersized skin tank. Especially if the problem goes away on canals.

I know it sounds very erratic, but as you know by now, I'm not in the least bit interested in boat stuff, I don't mind changing the engine oil, but that's as far as I want to go. So anyway, I will take a formal tomorrow, so I know what I started with, and if it's the same at the end.

 

 

 

No, to explain, I was at the Bingley five when the overrheat alarm went off, it was probably due to me not topping the tank up!

So since then I've been faffing about , initially getting water back in. Gurgling and so on, I think I got in to a routine of adding a jug every day, and when I had an engineer person on board (not necessarily for this) he said we needed to bleed, and did so, then he said to run it for a few hours. He indicated it was not normal to add so much every day. I now have little faith in him, never seen him since.

It has never overheated on the river, it's not had any more than a good blast for a mile or so to give the engine a run. Other than that I've been moderate engine revs, but short journeys and topping up just in case. Turns out i've been adding too much, will have to level test it again!

Edited August 1, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No, to explain, I was at the Bingley five when the overrheat alarm went off, it was probably due to me not topping the tank up!

So since then I've been faffing about , initially getting water back in. Gurgling and so on, I think I got in to a routine of adding a jug every day, and when I had an engineer person on board (not necessarily for this) he said we needed to bleed, and did so, then he said to run it for a few hours. He indicated it was not normal to add so much every day. I now have little faith in him, never seen him since.

It has never overheated on the river, it's not had any more than a good blast for a mile or so to give the engine a run. Other than that I've been moderate engine revs, but short journeys and topping up just in case. Turns out i've been adding too much, will have to level test it again!

Sounds very much like you have the measure of it. Just do the test, note the level and only top up if required top that level. If that level  is out of sight then an external expansion tank may help.

[LadyG]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Sounds very much like you have the measure of it. Just do the test, note the level and only top up if required top that level. If that level  is out of sight then an external expansion tank may help.

@Tony Brooks 

The level has not gone out of sight since the initial problem, so hopefully all is now well. 

[LadyG]

It's at the calorifier, the lower pipe on the left hand side, leaking almost as soon as engine starts up.

Coolant water very low, as I did not top up today, three hours under engine. Three jugfulls now added.

Does anyone know of a knowledgeable person who can fix these things. I'm at Wakefield, heading west. The v.  mooring is extremely noisy, so won't be here long.

Edited August 2, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, LadyG said:

It's at the calorifier, the lower pipe on the left hand side, leaking almost as soon as engine starts up.

Coolant water very low, as I did not top up today, three hours under engine. Three jugfulls now added.

Does anyone know of a knowledgeable person who can fix these things. I'm at Wakefield, heading west. The v.  mooring is extremely noisy, so won't be here long.

 

Well done for finding it.  It looks to me as if there are three potential points that could leak there. A BSP to compression adapter screwed into/onto the threaded part of the calorifier, what looks like a compression fitting to a stub of copper pipe, and a solder joint where the 15mm pipework is screwed into a reducer. I fear there might be another hidden solder joint but don't know. What I think is a compression joint with an olive might be a might be a flange type joint with a soft flt washer.

 

I think you may do well to clean the area up and try to find exactly what bit is leaking. If it is from what looks like a compression fitting it would not hurt to try gently tightening the big nut but take care not to stress the calorifier skin by  excess force. I am not sure that it is wise to have what looks like an unsecured calorifier connected by solid copper pipes. At the leat I would use suitable plastic or a length of hose. Either will go  along way to ensure a moving calorifier or vibrations will not stress those joints or the calorifier itself.

 

[LadyG]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well done for finding it.  It looks to me as if there are three potential points that could leak there. A BSP to compression adapter screwed into/onto the threaded part of the calorifier, what looks like a compression fitting to a stub of copper pipe, and a solder joint where the 15mm pipework is screwed into a reducer. I fear there might be another hidden solder joint but don't know. What I think is a compression joint with an olive might be a might be a flange type joint with a soft flt washer.

 

I think you may do well to clean the area up and try to find exactly what bit is leaking. If it is from what looks like a compression fitting it would not hurt to try gently tightening the big nut but take care not to stress the calorifier skin by  excess force. I am not sure that it is wise to have what looks like an unsecured calorifier connected by solid copper pipes. At the leat I would use suitable plastic or a length of hose. Either will go  along way to ensure a moving calorifier or vibrations will not stress those joints or the calorifier itself.

 

The calorifier is screwed to the floor, that is to say a wood panel with small screws. Not convinced it's much use.

I am going to tighten the nut, and see if it makes any difference, I assume thread is normal handed, I will try to loosen it first to see if it is actually loose!

Update, the nut is loose, I unscrewed it a bit, no sign of any tape, not sure if it should have that thin white ptfe? tape. I have some somewhere.

Engine is now running, four minutes and dry.

I've tightened all the nuts on the inlets/ outlets, just a squidge.

Edited August 3, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

The calorifier is screwed to the floor, that is to say a wood panel with small screws. Not convinced it's much use.

I am going to tighten the nut, and see if it makes any difference, I assume thread is normal handed, I will try to loosen it first to see if it is actually loose!

 

Hope it works. If you have another spanner that you can put on the hexagon right against the calorifier body it will help you avoid stressing the coil or calorifier skin when trying to move the nut.

[LadyG]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Hope it works. If you have another spanner that you can put on the hexagon right against the calorifier body it will help you avoid stressing the coil or calorifier skin when trying to move the nut.

I think I've managed to stop the leak, assuming this is the one causing problems.

If any more issues I could try two spanners, but I'd need to cut away insulation. I've not hard tightened the nut.

Nut is quite free on the thread, can be loosened by hand, once loosened by spanner.

Also a person is coming to visit on Friday to take note of the problems and will return to fix them!

I've heard that before, but he was adamant!

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by LadyG

[MtB]

On 20/07/2022 at 19:23, Tony Brooks said:

Remember that unless you have found the volume of coolant in the system no one knows how much it holds so no one knows how much the coolant will expand so how much space needs leaving as an air gap above the coolant in the manifold.

 

 

 

In addition to this, if there happens to be any air trapped in, say, the top of a skin tank, when the engine warms up this air expands too, increasing the amount of water that gets expelled when doing the experiment previously described by Tony to establish the cold coolant level.

 

On one of my boats, there is an air vent in the top of the skin tank (on the side of the swim), out of which I can get a whole load of air from time to time. 

 

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

In addition to this, if there happens to be any air trapped in, say, the top of a skin tank, when the engine warms up this air expands too, increasing the amount of water that gets expelled when doing the experiment previously described by Tony to establish the cold coolant level.

 

On one of my boats, there is an air vent in the top of the skin tank (on the side of the swim), out of which I can get a whole load of air from time to time. 

 

 

Yep, I think the other thing is that by now I've added maybe ten litres of water which may have diluted the coolant so that needs tested.

The first guy,  nickname "no use", did find the bleed nut, so I can do it myself if any further problem. Being me, I won't do anything unless it's essential!

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

Getting more antifreeze in is essential but on no account go above 50% or the coolant will not be able to carry as much heat away. Without antifreeze there is probably nothing to inhibit internal corrosion.

 

Despite what others are likely to say for ENGINES (not CH systems) I will perfectly happily just pour the quantity of neat antifreeze into the engine and run it for a good while, while cruising is fine. The calorifier circuit provides a bypass, so eventually it will all be mixed. There is every chance the water pump has a bypass  drilling as well.

[LadyG]

20 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Getting more antifreeze in is essential but on no account go above 50% or the coolant will not be able to carry as much heat away. Without antifreeze there is probably nothing to inhibit internal corrosion.

 

Despite what others are likely to say for ENGINES (not CH systems) I will perfectly happily just pour the quantity of neat antifreeze into the engine and run it for a good while, while cruising is fine. The calorifier circuit provides a bypass, so eventually it will all be mixed. There is every chance the water pump has a bypass  drilling as well.

OK, so still losing water. When underway yesterday it was evident on this lower left calorifier outlet, so I tightened it a bit more.

I don't know if that worked. But I'm not sure what this big nut is actually doing, what is it tightening, will it stop the leak. I don't want to end up with breaking things, but none of the nuts are tight against the calorifier itself, what is their function. At this rate I'm going to have to refer to my Nigel Calder handbook!

Edited August 4, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

OK, so still losing water. When underway yesterday it was evident on this lower left calorifier outlet, so I tightened it a bit more.

I don't know if that worked. But I'm not sure what this big nut is actually doing, what is it tightening, will it stop the leak. I don't want to end up with breaking things, but none of the nuts are tight against the calorifier itself, what is their function. At this rate I'm going to have to refer to my Nigel Calder handbook!

 

Those big nuts - the ones that screw onto the fitting with another hexagon that is then screwed onto or into the calorifier coil connection. The answer is that as we did not build the boat I doubt anyone here can answer the question. As I see it there are two likely possibilities. One, a normal compression fitting with an olive in the reducer solder fitting that has been soldered onto the main pipes. Two a bathroom style (3/4") tap connector that seals using a fibre or rubber washer between two parallel faces. If it is the second then the washer may have degraded over time and with vibration. If it is the first then the olive may not be correctly fitted  onto the pipe stub or it may have been crushed. With both solutions the big nut should not be close to the calorifier because if it were it would bean that it had "bottomed out" so  could no longer compress the olive or the soft washer.

 

I am afraid the only way you will find out is to drain the cooling system down and take the joint apart. You should only need to drain down until the level is just below the coil height. However, I have already advised that you carefully inspect the area to find out exactly where the leak is coming from.

 

It could be:

1. from the thread where the adaptor has been screwed into/onto the pipe coil

2. from between the big nut and pipe OR down the big nut thread.

3. from the solder joint.

 

If you take it apart without establishing what is leaking you will not know what you are looking for.

 

1. might be cured with a few turns of PTFE tape on the thread or silicon pipe sealant.

2. will need further inspection to see what type of coupling device has been used.

3. may need new parts and re-soldering.

[Tracy D'arth]

The Big Nut Close To The Calorifier will be the nut holding the coil in the calorifier, it should be tight else you will get a leak on the side of the calorifier that runs unseen into the insulation

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The Big Nut Close To The Calorifier will be the nut holding the coil in the calorifier, it should be tight else you will get a leak on the side of the calorifier that runs unseen into the insulation

 

But that would be domestic water, not coolant. However, the earlier talk about the domestic water pump cutting in and out a bit more frequently might indicate the leak is from the domestic water, but if so it does not explain the apparent loss of coolant. I would be smelling/tasting whatever is leaking, if there is any antifreeze left in the coolant LadyG should be able to taste it.

[LadyG]

10 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The Big Nut Close To The Calorifier will be the nut holding the coil in the calorifier, it should be tight else you will get a leak on the side of the calorifier that runs unseen into the insulation

The insulation seems clean and dry. I've cut it back a bit

I can see a hex type fitting (that a spanner would tighten), that I assume holds the coil in the vessel, it seems flat and dry.

The big nut I am talking about seems to be related to the copper piping that exits from the vessel en route to wherever it goes. It's about an inch diameter, but it is for a spanner, and 3/4 inches deep.

I will see if the guy who appears tomorrow can identify these things, if not I'll need to find someone who can.

Edited August 4, 2022 by LadyG

[Mike Hurley]

On 03/08/2022 at 10:44, LadyG said:

 

I've heard that before, but he was adamant!

 

Music world must be getting tough if Adam Ant is now a plumber🏴‍☠️😄

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Music world must be getting tough if Adam Ant is now a plumber🏴‍☠️😄

 

Maybe, knowing LadyGs policy of not paying for services received, he starts with "Stand & Deliver"

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

Music world must be getting tough if Adam Ant is now a plumber🏴‍☠️😄

As I thought, he never bothered. These guys strike me as unemployable, signing on and cash in hand to change a light bulb.

 

[LadyG]

Back on topic

 I'm sorry I was not able to carry out the definitive coolant level test, it's not easy, having found a leak, from calorifier, I had to sort that first, and I only have engine running an hour or so every other day. Now I'm off the river, where I was admittedly over filling water, I'm still not sure if I've stopped the leak totally, it's certainly not dripping out, but neither am I sure it has stopped absolutely.