Cooling tank losing water

[Tracy D'arth]

Because the canal is so short of water and LadyG keeps pouring water into her engine, the loss is due to osmosis through the skin tank membrane.

 

Does this help?   Oh, sorry.

 

 

This post is not rude. Nor is it offensive in any way. No intention to cause harm can be found in this post.

There may be an element of humour but that is subjective.

Should anyone be offended or insulted by this post, tough, its your problem, live with it.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Because the canal is so short of water and LadyG keeps pouring water into her engine, the loss is due to osmosis through the skin tank membrane.

 

Does this help?   Oh, sorry.

 

 

I think that really needs a smiley to show that perhaps it should not be taken very seriously BUT as other and perhaps you have mentioned it could turn out to be a leaking to canal skin tank. However, I think a pressure test is a better first option that getting the whole boat out to have  a look.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that really needs a smiley to show that perhaps it should not be taken very seriously BUT as other and perhaps you have mentioned it could turn out to be a leaking to canal skin tank. However, I think a pressure test is a better first option that getting the whole boat out to have  a look.

Not feeling well today, so smilies are out.  There are no grumpies in the menu!

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not feeling well today, so smilies are out.  There are no grumpies in the menu!

 

Hope you feel better soon.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not feeling well today, so smilies are out.  There are no grumpies in the menu!

 

Here are a couple you could use :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Hope you feel better soon.

Never will unfortunately but thanks for the thought.

 

Has LadyG really had a good look for a leak? Water pump, calorifier internal coil, concealed pipework, engine hoses, radiator cap, expansion bottle and cap, et al.?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Never will unfortunately but thanks for the thought.

 

Has LadyG really had a good look for a leak? Water pump, calorifier internal coil, concealed pipework, engine hoses, radiator cap, expansion bottle and cap, et al.?

 

I get the impression she ha shad a look, but how good a look I could not say. She was certainly advised to look for water pump leaks and said that she could not see any signs. She has said there are no signs of leaks from the pressure cap but has not commented on where the overflow hose (if any) runs to. I suspect coolant could be building up under floating oil in the drip tray until that is ruled out by cleaning and testing.

 

If it was a leaking calorifier coil I would expect the opposite problem, an overflowing system because the domestic water pump cut off pressure is usually at least twice a typical pressure cap pressure, but anything is possible.

[ditchcrawler]

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Also, I have not seen a report of the results of the procedure I gave to establish the correct coolant level and after subsiquent periods of running to temperature.

Sorry to say it, but did you expect to?

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Also, I have not seen a report of the results of the procedure I gave to establish the correct coolant level and after subsiquent periods of running to temperature.

Sorry to say it, but did you expect to?

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Sorry to say it, but did you expect to?

Sorry to say it, but did you expect to?

 

Not really, but that is not exclusive to the OP. Probably happens more often than not.

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

I think you need to find a good engineer.Unless he's wearing a three cornered hat and sporting a brace of pistols, you don't know what you're getting.You will need to suck him and see. (pardon the expression)

Or post as many pictures of your engine gubbins as you can get, for Tony to offer advice.

 

This last was recommended and agreed to return. I asked for him because

He had a wet n vac for mucky bilges, which is needed to clean up the bilge. I've been trying to get this sorted for nearly two years, not much more I can do. He thought it was a dirty job, and also didn't like working in a small engine hole. This is madness. 

[haggis]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This is madness. 

yes, but have you carried out the tests which have been suggested from some of our knowledgable friends on here ? I am sure it is frustrating for you having a leak but it must be equally frustrating for your helpers when you seem to ignore their advice. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

This last was recommended and agreed to return. I asked for him because

He had a wet n vac for mucky bilges, which is needed to clean up the bilge. I've been trying to get this sorted for nearly two years, not much more I can do. He thought it was a dirty job, and also didn't like working in a small engine hole. This is madness. 

 

OK, I had a cruiser stern so had fair access to the engine but even on some of the Trads that have the engine cased in you can get adequate access to the engine if you remove the casing. Most, I think simply unscrew once you work out which screws need removing. You do not need a wet vac. Large disposable nappies will soak up any water and then it is a case of newspaper/rags etc to remove as much sludge and oil as you can. Then spray a degreaser around and agitate with a long handled brush and water so more nappies can  remove the emulsified residue. It is never a nice job and you can be sure you will pay through the nose for someone else to get  dirty, greasy and oily. Once clean a white bilge blanket at the back of the engine tray will keep it oil free so you can see any water collecting there. The corners of the bilge may be more difficult but  a similar approach will get it clean and then as long as you don't let the bilge overflow the engine beds it should not get oily again.

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I get the impression she ha shad a look, but how good a look I could not say. She was certainly advised to look for water pump leaks and said that she could not see any signs. She has said there are no signs of leaks from the pressure cap but has not commented on where the overflow hose (if any) runs to. I suspect coolant could be building up under floating oil in the drip tray until that is ruled out by cleaning and testing.

 

If it was a leaking calorifier coil I would expect the opposite problem, an overflowing system because the domestic water pump cut off pressure is usually at least twice a typical pressure cap pressure, but anything is possible.

No, the bilge is in two sections, the forward section would be where any water from engine coolant overflow would end, 

I don't know anything about the calorifier, should I look in the cupboard?

The shower works as normal.

I hear the water pump triggered every so often, but it has always done that, I think it's cos I haven't tightened galley taps.

I did used to shine a bright light every day looking for some inspiration. It's  But it all needs to be cleaned and 

[Mad Harold]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No, the bilge is in two sections, the forward section would be where any water from engine coolant overflow would end, 

I don't know anything about the calorifier, should I look in the cupboard?

The shower works as normal.

I hear the water pump triggered every so often, but it has always done that, I think it's cos I haven't tightened galley taps.

I did used to shine a bright light every day looking for some inspiration. It's  But it all needs to be cleaned and 

I hope the abrupt end of your post doesn't mean you have fallen into your engine hole!😞

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No, the bilge is in two sections, the forward section would be where any water from engine coolant overflow would end, 

I don't know anything about the calorifier, should I look in the cupboard?

The shower works as normal.

I hear the water pump triggered every so often, but it has always done that, I think it's cos I haven't tightened galley taps.

I did used to shine a bright light every day looking for some inspiration. It's  But it all needs to be cleaned and 

 

That description of the bilge arrangement I find confusing. Perhaps a photo of it may help.

 

You need to look wherever the calorifier is located unless you have an instant gas water heater, in which case you won't have a calorifier so it can't be leaking. A vertical  calorifier could be on the cabin floor either below or in a cupboard, while a horizontal one could be under a bed or sat on one side of the uxter plate. More likely under a bed.

 

This problem is exceptionally unlikely to have anything to do with the domestic water system

 

[LadyG]

29 minutes ago, haggis said:

yes, but have you carried out the tests which have been suggested from some of our knowledgable friends on here ? I am sure it is frustrating for you having a leak but it must be equally frustrating for your helpers when you seem to ignore their advice. 

Yes, I've done what I can do, ie looking for leaks. I cant see any, but yes it is possible some is ending in the dirty greasy aft bilge compartment. 

I'm off the river so not so concerned, the overheating engine alarm has not gone off, so I'll just keep on putting in less water, see if the level stays pretty much the same.

I ve added a bit less water today, in case a whole jugfull is too much, and it's going straight to overflow once water is hot.

I usually do only one or even two hours, but even with three, it does not seem to make any difference. 

I'm not totally convinced I have a leak, it may just be a settling in process.

How often does anyone top up the cooling?

Is it once a day, once a week, a month, a year?

Calorifier is in a cupboard, vertical.

EURIKA there is water in the cupboard!!!!!!

I think it is coming out of the lower calorifier outlet which goes back towards the engine.

The engine bilge is normal except there is a vertical wall which traps any grease and water from prop, this is where the bilge pump is, it's automatic but I give it thirty seconds on manual every few days .

I'll try a photo, tomorrow.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, LadyG said:

Yes, I've done what I can do, ie looking for leaks. I can see any, but yes it is possible some is ending in the dirty greasy aft bilge compartment. 

I'm off the river so not so concerned, the overheating engine alarm has not gone off, so I'll just keep on putting in less water, see if the level stays pretty much the same.

I ve added a bit less water today, in case a whole jugfull is too much, and it's going straight to overflow once water is hot.

I usually do only one or even two hours, but even with three, it does not seem to make any difference. 

I'm not totally convinced I have a leak, it may just be a settling in process.

How often does anyone top up the cooling?

Is it once a day, once a week, a month, a year?

 

Coolant should be checked every day but usually only needs topping up to the CORRECT level once every few weeks unless either you overfill and don't know the correct level, or you have a leak.

 

If the overheat alarm goes off after filling up it definitely shows insufficient coolant and it might be that the cooling system needs a larger capacity header tank mounted on a bulkhead or something. If coolant is being blown out of the filler a sit heats up it was probably overfilled but if so it should not the overheat.

 

If you have filled it to the brim and eventually the overheat alarm goes off (what did the temperature gauge say) you have a problem but as long as the water pump drive belt is in place and this is a new occurrence after many months of satisfactory use, we come back to the advice at the start of this topic. Air/gas in the cooling system expanding when heated and blowing coolant out of the overflow, a leak, or a leaking head gasket.

 

You can buy the test liquid online that allows you to test the coolant for hydrocarbons, so indicating a probably head gasket problem.

 

You say the engineer has bled the system so as long as he did it properly that won't be the cause.

 

You say that you have checked for leaks, including below the water pump but can't find any.

 

That just leaves a cold pressure test to see if the system maintains pressure. If it does then we are looking at a potential head gasket problem. If it does not then we are looking for a leak and a cold pressure test plus very diligent inspection may be the best way to find it. If the pressure drops and there is no external leak then it implies the skin tank is leaking into the canal.

 

You can also do a hot pressure test but the engine needs heating to running temperature with the filler cap off and the pressurizing. If the pressure keeps on climbing while the test is in progress and the engine  running it is another indication of a head gasket problem.

 

Has the hull been recently blacked. It is not unknown for blacking to build up on the skin tank area so thickly it inhibits the cooling.

 

 

[LadyG]

On 21/07/2022 at 09:32, Tony Brooks said:

 

And those little hoses often vent into the oily drip tray, not the bilge so the oil floats and obscures any small build up of water.

There is rubber tube, I tried to find if it was overflowing, but I felt it was inconclusive, there is no drip tray as such, it's just the bilge.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, LadyG said:

There is rubber tube, I tried to find if it was overflowing, but I felt it was inconclusive, there is no drip tray as such, it's just the bilge.

 

Stick the rubber tube, extended if necessary into a plastic "milk" bottle, That will show you if it is leaking from there  or not and by judicious emptying it may tell you when it leaks.

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Stick the rubber tube, extended if necessary into a plastic "milk" bottle, That will show you if it is leaking from there  or not and by judicious emptying it may tell you when it leaks.

I'm sure its the leak from the calorifier, so need to monitor that untill it can be fixed.

 

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm sure its the leak from the calorifier, so need to monitor that untill it can be fixed.

 

 

It was not that long ago that you said you could not find any signs of a leak, so what makes you think it might be the calorifier?

 

A loss of coolant will NOT be a leak from the calorifier itself but may well be a leak on the pipes and hoses running between the engine and calorifier. Have you looked? Have you found such a leak or stains to suggest such a leak?

 

The DOMESTIC water pump running can be an indication of a  calorifier leak, but not a cooling system leak - and that included pipes between the engine and calorifier.

[LadyG]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Stick the rubber tube, extended if necessary into a plastic "milk" bottle, That will show you if it is leaking from there  or not and by judicious emptying it may tell you when it leaks.

I can't get the rubber tube out of its location, it seems to be jammed it, I know!

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It was not that long ago that you said you could not find any signs of a leak, so what makes you think it might be the calorifier?

 

A loss of coolant will NOT be a leak from the calorifier itself but may well be a leak on the pipes and hoses running between the engine and calorifier. Have you looked? Have you found such a leak or stains to suggest such a leak?

 

The DOMESTIC water pump running can be an indication of a  calorifier leak, but not a cooling system leak - and that included pipes between the engine and calorifier.

I was looking for leaks in the engine hole, I never looked in the calorifier cupboard till today.

[LadyG]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I can't get the rubber tube out of its location, it seems to be jammed it, I know!

I was looking for leaks in the engine hole, I never looked in the calorifier cupboard till today.

The lower rhs pipe coming out of calorifier is looking as though it might be leaking. There is a nut, I'm not ready to do anything untill I've found an engineer, plumber whatever they call themselves. All the pipes are currently dry, as one might expect as the water is hot, but stuff I kept in there is wet.

[LadyG]

I did try the coolant level test @Tony Brooks it's not that I have ignored the suggestions, but I was on the river, and just wanted to keep moving till I could safely moor up and think about what I can do, also waiting for response from last engineer, who doesn't want to fix my boat, in spite of verbal assurances plus my cash.  If I don't know what is wrong, it's too difficult!

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

The lowest pipe just below the immersion heater is the DOMESTIC water cold inlet so that won't have anything to do with the cooling system.

 

You do have a full width engine drip tray but, assuming the boat trims down by the stern, luckily it is clean enough to say a cooling leak is unlikely to be leaking into it and that includes from the small overflow hose.

 

I agree there is some staining on the calorifier insulation but for the leak you describe it does not look dirty enough. If this is a long term thing I would expect to see antifreeze coloured stains on the pipe work and down the calorifier. Tomorrow morning I would top up and run while keeping a close eye on those coil connections, there should be two pairs of two, but I don't know which pair is for the engine. Also follow the pipes back to the engine looking at every joint.