Banbury area, multiple closures due to vandalism

[dmr]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think detioration works on a geometric rather than an arithmetical progression. So 20 years falling to bits from now is going to be a lot worse than in the past 20. And fifty years ago you had the huge upsurge in interest left over from all the enthusiasts who had brought the system back to life in the first place. That's all gone now, people just think it was always like it is now, but better.

 

 

or even exponential, but I am not surprised that you avoided the use of such a trendy word 😀

[MtB]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

Significantly increasing the revenue from boaters (risky in my opinion, because many boaters will leave the system, possibly resulting in less revenue).

 

 

The "Laffer curve" principle of taxation applies here, I reckon. 

 

Maybe CRT have run the numbers and decided current licence costs are optimum but I suspect not. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think detioration works on a geometric rather than an arithmetical progression. So 20 years falling to bits from now is going to be a lot worse than in the past 20. And fifty years ago you had the huge upsurge in interest left over from all the enthusiasts who had brought the system back to life in the first place. That's all gone now, people just think it was always like it is now, but better.

 

 

 

In addition I don;'t think the starting point for the deterioration was 250 years ago as Nick suggests, because until the end of commercial carrying the cut had to be maintained properly on a 'money no object' basis, just like our railways are now.

 

So 50 or 60 year back is when they stopped maintaining to commercial carrying standards.

 

[dmr]

4 hours ago, Paul C said:

d, Reduce the size of the network

I would hope that boaters would put up a huge fight to prevent this and publicise how much money has been wasted on blue signs and the like. If any part of the network is closed and CRT get away with it then more and more will surely follow till there are just a couple of token sections left open for (electric) hireboats.

Remember that University fees when introduced were going to be just a "nominal" amount to provide a bit of extra bonus cash for universities?  Look at them now. The thin end of the wedge is very very true.

[Paul C]

I am not sure what boaters would fight with? In any case, they don't act as one body (they are hopelessly fragmented) and the wider public perception is not that great. Hire firms might be the best bet, but their interests are probably not adversely affected by a partial-closure.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Remember that University fees when introduced were going to be just a "nominal" amount to provide a bit of extra bonus cash for universities?  Look at them now. The thin end of the wedge is very very true.

 

Its worse than that. I remember as a teenager, students getting paid by the guvvermint to attend university.

 

There were 'sit-in' demonstrations at the LSE because the free money given to students in grants was not enough to live the lifestyle to which they wanted to become accustomed....

 

How much money HAS been spent on the Blue Signs so far? Does anybody actually know? Not much I suspect, in relation to the whole CRT budget. 

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Its worse than that. I remember as a teenager, students getting paid by the guvvermint to attend university.

 

There were 'sit-in' demonstrations at the LSE because the free money given to students in grants was not enough to live the lifestyle to which they wanted to become accustomed....

 

How much money HAS been spent on the Blue Signs so far? Does anybody actually know? Not much I suspect, in relation to the whole CRT budget. 

 

 

 

 

 

I suspect CRT employed quite low paid contract staff to walk the towpath and record every existing sign ready for new ones, but used their own staff to erect the new ones. Two "operatives" maybe did three or fours signs each day, but those same people could maybe have repaired a broken paddle instead??

There is a new blue sign on the swing bridge here giving totally incorrect instructions on how to operate it. Its causing real problems to inexperienced boaters. Should I tell CRT?  If I do it will be a new sign and all the labour to replace it???  A passing boater has scratched out the wrong bits and wrote in the correct operation so its now just an eyesore and makes CRT look daft which must defeat the object of the sign?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

I suspect CRT employed quite low paid contract staff to walk the towpath and record every existing sign ready for new ones, but used their own staff to erect the new ones. Two "operatives" maybe did three or fours signs each day, but those same people could maybe have repaired a broken paddle instead??

There is a new blue sign on the swing bridge here giving totally incorrect instructions on how to operate it. Its causing real problems to inexperienced boaters. Should I tell CRT?  If I do it will be a new sign and all the labour to replace it???  A passing boater has scratched out the wrong bits and wrote in the correct operation so its now just an eyesore and makes CRT look daft which must defeat the object of the sign?

 

 

Surely the object of the avalanche of blue signs erected is to raise the awareness of the firstly the existence and then the benefits of canals with the general public, not to help boaters. The point of this being to garner public support for the continued public funding of the canal system.

 

Even MPs walk near canals sometimes and must have noticed the signs telling them how "Life's better by water". 

[dmr]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Surely the object of the avalanche of blue signs erected is to raise the awareness of the firstly the existence and then the benefits of canals with the general public, not to help boaters. The point of this being to garner public support for the continued public funding of the canal system.

 

Even MPs walk near canals sometimes and must have noticed the signs telling them how "Life's better by water". 

 

Yes, and thats why they likely didn't bother to find out how the swing bridge actually works (its nuffin special, just like many other swing bridges), but if the sign gets defaced surely that negates its PR objective?

To get back on topic, if CRT erect an incorrect sign and a boater makes the required corrections, is that vandalism ? 😀

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, dmr said:

To get back on topic, if CRT erect an incorrect sign and a boater makes the required corrections, is that vandalism ? 😀

 

 

And sticking to the topic, yes ALL the blue signs are vandalism just as you suggested previous, like! 

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

If any part of the network is closed and CRT get away with it then more and more will surely follow till there are just a couple of token sections left open for (electric) hireboats.

Springs Branch at Skipton? Closed since the Boxing Day floods of 2015, and with no sign of reopening. But then its only a short branch, doesn't really go anywhere, and few boats other than the trip boat actually used it when it was open.

[Grassman]

Getting back on topic 🙂, the southernmost stoppage of those notifications is at  Lock 37 Dashwood Lock. Attributed to 'vandalism' on the CRT stoppage notification it is actually a badly bent paddle bar, something which sounds as if it was caused by a boater. I'm in Oxford and haven't actually seen it but this is what a boater who came through there has told me. CRT were supposed to be working on it on Friday but I haven't seen confirmation that it's been sorted yet.

 

I suspect the problems further north are also probably down to boater abuse and with all 3 issues the water shortages have made the situation worse, hence the closures. 

 

 

[dmr]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

Springs Branch at Skipton? Closed since the Boxing Day floods of 2015, and with no sign of reopening. But then its only a short branch, doesn't really go anywhere, and few boats other than the trip boat actually used it when it was open.

 

and the link from Chester down to the Dee. Closing a whole canal is more serious, but as PaulC points out, boaters are not united. If CRT shut a couple of "Up Norf" canals, and a few bits of the BCN, 95% of boaters would not care.  Cycling and paddleboards are a real threat as they would allow a canal to remain sort of open, but without boats.

[rgreg]

29 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

and the link from Chester down to the Dee. Closing a whole canal is more serious, but as PaulC points out, boaters are not united. If CRT shut a couple of "Up Norf" canals, and a few bits of the BCN, 95% of boaters would not care.  Cycling and paddleboards are a real threat as they would allow a canal to remain sort of open, but without boats.

I would expect the IWA to be vociferous against such actions. 

[Paul C]

14 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I would expect the IWA to be vociferous against such actions. 

 

Pragmatically what would they do though? Just "being vociferous" doesn't cut it!

[rgreg]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Pragmatically what would they do though? Just "being vociferous" doesn't cut it!

They've succeeded before through campaigns as we all know. Whether the outcome would be the same in the current environment, who knows? 

[Paul C]

I think the pass success was partly because in those days, publicity was not easy (no internet then) so it needed an organised group to be able to widely publicise something; the public were amenable to their cause; and there was a regulatory body who were able to re-evaluate the situation and could find the funding to support that change in policy.

 

Publicity nowadays is so much easier and the wider situation is very different, so public support will be MUCH harder to find; and the canals are now a much lower priority so it would be more unlikely a re-evaluation and extra funding were found.

 

There is the "private funding/charity funding" route, but I don't believe the will of the public is there to keep the entirety of the canal network navigable. I think a (large) part will become unnavigable but remain 'in water' for the fishes, ducks and towpath users. In fact, from many boater's point of view, pragmatically it would be BETTER to 'give up' navigability of certain lengths of canal, to focus the dwindling resources on more popular areas, than spread it too thinly. It simply isn't a good value proposition.

[DaveP]

2 hours ago, Grassman said:

Getting back on topic 🙂, the southernmost stoppage of those notifications is at  Lock 37 Dashwood Lock. Attributed to 'vandalism' on the CRT stoppage notification it is actually a badly bent paddle bar, something which sounds as if it was caused by a boater. I'm in Oxford and haven't actually seen it but this is what a boater who came through there has told me. CRT were supposed to be working on it on Friday but I haven't seen confirmation that it's been sorted yet.

 

 Came up through Dashwood at 11am.  All fine; top gate a bit leaky but overall in better condition than I've usually seen this lock over the last decade.  Levels above Bakers lock and the Cherwell are all fine up to Lower Heyford (where we are now).  Kidlington Geen to Roundham pound was low on Friday.

 

[dmr]

50 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I think the pass success was partly because in those days, publicity was not easy (no internet then) so it needed an organised group to be able to widely publicise something; the public were amenable to their cause; and there was a regulatory body who were able to re-evaluate the situation and could find the funding to support that change in policy.

 

Publicity nowadays is so much easier and the wider situation is very different, so public support will be MUCH harder to find; and the canals are now a much lower priority so it would be more unlikely a re-evaluation and extra funding were found.

 

There is the "private funding/charity funding" route, but I don't believe the will of the public is there to keep the entirety of the canal network navigable. I think a (large) part will become unnavigable but remain 'in water' for the fishes, ducks and towpath users. In fact, from many boater's point of view, pragmatically it would be BETTER to 'give up' navigability of certain lengths of canal, to focus the dwindling resources on more popular areas, than spread it too thinly. It simply isn't a good value proposition.

 

But how do you square this with a number of resorations that will be adding many miles of new navigable canal over the next few years?  Both the Rochdale and HNC were restored with huge effort and expense, much from local councils. Would it be politically aceptable to close these whilst building a new link into Stroud (down South) ???

Also, CRT tell us that the number of boats is increasing and that some places are conjested (full), so closing down parts of the network would appear daft.

[Athy]

The lock closure at Banbury is, as alluded to above, because of very low water levels in the pound(s) below. The lock beam bears a notice warning of "bent metalwork" but this is not the reason for the closure. CART hope to reopen the lock on Monday (info from Tooley's boatyard yesterday). But the closure is not total: CART bods let three boats up yesterday (info from Black Price hire-boater yesterday evening).

   So, in this case at least, vandalism was not a factor in the closure.

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

Both the Rochdale and HNC were restored with huge effort and expense, much from local councils. Would it be politically aceptable to close these whilst building a new link into Stroud (down South) ???

Lottery Millennium funding covered a big part of the 'final push' cost of completing both the Rochdale and Huddersfield. One of the conditions of that funding was that the canals would be maintained in navigable condition for a defined period - but I can't remember how long that period is.

[billS]

The linkage to the paddle on Dashwood lock was looking very bent when we went through last Tuesday. It is a deep lock and the it appeared to be missing a support bracket half way down, which was present on the other paddle. I don't know it the paddle was operable or not at the time, as we did not need to operate it as the lock was empty when we approached, and we were going up. The lock filled normally, so I don't think it was leaking.

 

I doubt of the damage was caused by a boat as the linkage is too far off centre to be hit by a bow or stern (unless it was a transom stern boat with no rear fender). I think it more likely that the support bracket had fallen off and the increased play in the linkage had allowed it to become bent when the paddle was wound down.

[David Mack]

13 minutes ago, billS said:

I think it more likely that the support bracket had fallen off and the increased play in the linkage had allowed it to become bent when the paddle was wound down.

Unsupported long paddle rods can bend if someone tries to force a paddle down.

[Arthur Marshall]

17 hours ago, David Mack said:

Lottery Millennium funding covered a big part of the 'final push' cost of completing both the Rochdale and Huddersfield. One of the conditions of that funding was that the canals would be maintained in navigable condition for a defined period - but I can't remember how long that period is.

This is the main problem with anything funded by the lottery. The millenium grants went to loads of stuff - but only for capital costs, not for longterm funding. Most of the local museums, arts venues etc have already closed because they weren't viable. "Use it or lose it" is a very valid little cliche, and I suspect it will apply, sadly, to quite a lot of the canal system. If even the much used bits are in the state they're in, there really is little hope for the other bits unless someone can revitalise the original regeneration spirit. And that'll only happen if the internet falls apart... 

[Dave123]

I'm amazed CRT haven't yet restricted the opening times of at least Claydon locks if not Napton too. The lack of a winding hole above Claydon means a lot of boats coming from Napton go down the locks just to wind and go straight back up. Hopefully this is because the reservoirs and back pumping at Napton are coping. The feed through Aynho weir lock and the adjacent Cherwell weir height are presumably set so there is always an adequate supply to the canal even if the Cherwell is barely flowing, same goes for Shipton lock. So this is hopefully all just localised issues with Grants lock being used too much relative to Banbury lock? On Facebook people were suggesting unspecified boat yards were running water down locks to keep their pound(s) topped up...