Does anyone recognise this make?

[bigcol]

Hi ya, it’s me again

 

took the boat to the winding hole and back again.

unfortunately a banging noise, quite loud started, but stopped after 5 mins. I was either a log, stuck wedged in the prop.

but also we noticed the middle of the blue boot on the stern gland would it be was twisting, just started it up again, and the blue boot was still trying to twist, as it’s misshaped the boot.

don’t think this was suppose to happen, but don’t know the make to order parts etc, before i take it off.

also if I do take it off is water going to be gushing out?

it seems that when I’ve squeeze it before it was filled with water, now it seems more solid

 

if I can get the make, I can service/repair/renew, or replace with a different type

via advice from yourselves, members of this forum.

 

an thanks in advance

 

[David Mack]

What Graham Booth described as "a concoction of neoprene and jubilee clips".

 

Tides Marine Sure Seal?

https://shop.tnorrismarine.co.uk/products/sureseal™-metric-sizes

 

[Tony Brooks]

FWIW, if this were  a conventional gland the front of the stern tube and the back of the gland would have dogs on them that have to be meshed when fitting. This is to prevent the gland part twisting and tearing the hose connecting the two. However, I think that your gland probably uses a form of lip seal, so I don't see how that would grip tight enough to twist the hose. Perhaps it is heat related but I doubt it. Maybe take the front plate off the seal to see what is going on. I fear the hose is probably now damaged, so renewal might be a good idea.  I can't see how a log in the prop could cause that.

[Tracy D'arth]

5 hours ago, bigcol said:

Hi ya, it’s me again

 

took the boat to the winding hole and back again.

unfortunately a banging noise, quite loud started, but stopped after 5 mins. I was either a log, stuck wedged in the prop.

but also we noticed the middle of the blue boot on the stern gland would it be was twisting, just started it up again, and the blue boot was still trying to twist, as it’s misshaped the boot.

don’t think this was suppose to happen, but don’t know the make to order parts etc, before i take it off.

also if I do take it off is water going to be gushing out?

it seems that when I’ve squeeze it before it was filled with water, now it seems more solid

 

if I can get the make, I can service/repair/renew, or replace with a different type

via advice from yourselves, members of this forum.

 

an thanks in advance

 

You ran it banging for 5 minutes?  I'm not surprised you have damage.

[bigcol]

31 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You ran it banging for 5 minutes?  I'm not surprised you have damage.

Seemed it, just as we going through the bridge,  we wanted to clear the bridge,

it was loud enough tho, the noise  did stop but yes it seemed for ever

[bigcol]

Looking at the price tag for the same make price tag £337

i might as well replace the whole assembly with a vetus water cooled gland below

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294744992481?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338749392&toolid=20006&customid=GB_131090_294744992481.139652105680~1431969993559-g_EAIaIQobChMIyazxkpr6-AIV1uvtCh2YigOOEAQYASABEgL_LPD_BwE

 

vetus are a good respected make ?

[blackrose]

2 minutes ago, bigcol said:

 

vetus are a good respected make ?

 

Well in my experience they're a good make of water lubricated stern gland, however they are not respected. Not on this forum at least.

 

There must be many thousands of them on boats in this country but we still hear people telling us how terrible they are and how they will fail catastrophically, with little evidence for these claims. I'm pretty sure that's simply down to the luddite tendencies of narrowboaters. Meanwhile we see plenty of posts about conventional greasy stern glands which have malfunctioned in one way or another, seized up, etc. Sometimes that's just due to a lack of maintenance of course.

 

All I know is that my vetus water lubricated gland has been fine for the last 17 years, requires minimal maintenance and I'd rather have that than a messy and polluting greasy gland. 

[Tracy D'arth]

There is nothing quite like a greasy gland.

 

 

What's not to like?

 

 

 

 

This post is not rude, does not offend and is only funny, OK moderators?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[bigcol]

There’s many on google, but why is their such a price difference.

£80 to  £350 and above 

obvious answer is quality, but if it was that simple why are the vetus ones, the cheaper alternatives?

surely it can’t be that, as folkS and insurance company’s be telling what makes they would support or not in claims.

 

and what is the best sort

  GREASE OR WATER

 

col

[mrsmelly]

35 minutes ago, bigcol said:

There’s many on google, but why is their such a price difference.

£80 to  £350 and above 

obvious answer is quality, but if it was that simple why are the vetus ones, the cheaper alternatives?

surely it can’t be that, as folkS and insurance company’s be telling what makes they would support or not in claims.

 

and what is the best sort

  GREASE OR WATER

 

col

PSS are the best. Do the job properly. I have experience with them on units that did many many thousands of hours without failure or fault.

[bigcol]

25 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

PSS are the best. Do the job properly. I have experience with them on units that did many many thousands of hours without failure or fault.

Sorry  PSS ?

[Tony Brooks]

46 minutes ago, bigcol said:

There’s many on google, but why is their such a price difference.

£80 to  £350 and above 

obvious answer is quality, but if it was that simple why are the vetus ones, the cheaper alternatives?

surely it can’t be that, as folkS and insurance company’s be telling what makes they would support or not in claims.

 

and what is the best sort

  GREASE OR WATER

 

col

 

Remember that the Vetus gland does need greasing, silicon grease squirted down a small hole. It also needs, according to Vetus, but apparently not some vendors and members here, regular maintenance. From memory every 500 hours Vetus say that you should remove the gland and clean the shaft. Not too sure of their latest figures because that 500 hours was once less I recall.

 

Secondly the gland is not water lubricated, it is the shaft bearing that is water lubricated being a Cutless rubber bearing.

 

Simply changing the gland without changing the bearing MIGHT (by no means certain) cause the Cutless bearing problems with grease, especially if a narrowboat greaser is fitted, and would be very likely to starve the bearing of water.

 

 I have no idea about your stern gland but the hose section implies that it also uses a rubber Cutless bearing. I can't see the water/air vent hose tube in your photos so maybe the assembly lost water and seized up. Heat might explain the hose appearing to harden.  That would explain the twist in the hose. https://www.tidesmarine.com list spares (the hose looks like a special to me) so if you are thinking about changing the shaft bearing(s) and gland I think at least the back of the boat needs to come out of the water, so I would   inspect the whole thing before deciding on the next step.

 

Tidesmarine talk about a PTFE bearing, but I think it is part of the gland housing that keeps lip seal concentric with the shaft and is not an actual shaft bearing.

 

To address the price issue, I think it is down to small volumes, tooling and development costs and what the makers think the market can bear. basically stern glands are a once only purchase, so the cost is unlikely to be the most significant factor unless the boat s being built down to a price.I suspect making the moulds for the plastic parts is very expensive whereas the wooden patterns for the conventional glands are so old they have paid for themselves many times over.

 

Whilst I agree with @mrsmelly re the PSS seal that is a carbon ring seal so should  never see much water, my objections to the other packless seals is that they all need some form of maintenance, I don't think rubber shaft bearings fare particularly well when lubricated by muddy canal water, and when the time comes to deal with the actual seals I would rather do it by leaving the shaft and coupling is situ instead of having to take the coupling off the shaft to fit the seal with the attendant risk of burrs on the shaft damaging the new seals (I know there are ways round that but will a typical DIY inland boater know?)

 

Even the way the term dripless seal is misleading. By very careful adjustment of a conventional gland so the drip just stops but when the greaser is used a bead of grease or water appears at the face of the gland a properly installed packed gland will not drip, overheat, or wear the shaft. If such a gland is isolated from engine movement then it will often last 20 years plus without adjustment.

1 minute ago, bigcol said:

Sorry  PSS ?

Google PSS Shaft seal. It is a carbon ring set in a rubber bellows rubbing against a machined face rotor fixed to the shaft.

[bigcol]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Remember that the Vetus gland does need greasing, silicon grease squirted down a small hole. It also needs, according to Vetus, but apparently not some vendors and members here, regular maintenance. From memory every 500 hours Vetus say that you should remove the gland and clean the shaft. Not too sure of their latest figures because that 500 hours was once less I recall.

 

Secondly the gland is not water lubricated, it is the shaft bearing that is water lubricated being a Cutless rubber bearing.

 

Simply changing the gland without changing the bearing MIGHT (by no means certain) cause the Cutless bearing problems with grease, especially if a narrowboat greaser is fitted, and would be very likely to starve the bearing of water.

 

 I have no idea about your stern gland but the hose section implies that it also uses a rubber Cutless bearing. I can't see the water/air vent hose tube in your photos so maybe the assembly lost water and seized up. Heat might explain the hose appearing to harden.  That would explain the twist in the hose. https://www.tidesmarine.com list spares (the hose looks like a special to me) so if you are thinking about changing the shaft bearing(s) and gland I think at least the back of the boat needs to come out of the water, so I would   inspect the whole thing before deciding on the next step.

 

Tidesmarine talk about a PTFE bearing, but I think it is part of the gland housing that keeps lip seal concentric with the shaft and is not an actual shaft bearing.

 

To address the price issue, I think it is down to small volumes, tooling and development costs and what the makers think the market can bear. basically stern glands are a once only purchase, so the cost is unlikely to be the most significant factor unless the boat s being built down to a price.I suspect making the moulds for the plastic parts is very expensive whereas the wooden patterns for the conventional glands are so old they have paid for themselves many times over.

 

Whilst I agree with @mrsmelly re the PSS seal that is a carbon ring seal so should  never see much water, my objections to the other packless seals is that they all need some form of maintenance, I don't think rubber shaft bearings fare particularly well when lubricated by muddy canal water, and when the time comes to deal with the actual seals I would rather do it by leaving the shaft and coupling is situ instead of having to take the coupling off the shaft to fit the seal with the attendant risk of burrs on the shaft damaging the new seals (I know there are ways round that but will a typical DIY inland boater know?)

 

Even the way the term dripless seal is misleading. By very careful adjustment of a conventional gland so the drip just stops but when the greaser is used a bead of grease or water appears at the face of the gland a properly installed packed gland will not drip, overheat, or wear the shaft. If such a gland is isolated from engine movement then it will often last 20 years plus without adjustment.

Google PSS Shaft seal. It is a carbon ring set in a rubber bellows rubbing against a machined face rotor fixed to the shaft.

https://www.tradeinn.com/waveinn/en/vetus-self-aligning-inner-bearing-with-triple-lip-seal/139068484/p?utm_source=google_products&utm_medium=merchant&id_producte=16722908&country=uk&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr9Ol3Lz6-AIVArTtCh0AlgFmEAQYASABEgJdIPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

Hi Tony

that  vetus in this link is water cooled it says

 

https://www.tradeinn.com/waveinn/en/vetus-self-aligning-inner-bearing-with-triple-lip-seal/139068484/p?utm_source=google_products&utm_medium=merchant&id_producte=16722908&country=uk&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr9Ol3Lz6-AIVArTtCh0AlgFmEAQYASABEgJdIPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[mrsmelly]

25 minutes ago, bigcol said:

Sorry  PSS ?

Google will have some on you can read up on.

[bigcol]

As  you mentioned Tony take it apart, at least one end and delve arround in there.

 

1st thing Ive notice there’s no water pick up conected,! so yes your right it must be seized up

so will investigate. I’m also talking to Johnathon from t Norris, he’s said the same have a look, but don’t go to far, in case there too much water.

the reason why I imagine that the water pick up want conected as the boat builders hadn’t installed a engine to conect with.

 

N Norris is saying it be difficault doing it in the water

to lift it out is £1500 crane lol

i mean if I buy the water pick up kit, and a boot, I may be luck???

 

below is a copy of Sureseal  n norris

 

Colin

Can you advise the shaft size please. I am checking the part number to see if we can identify the hose. Price and lead time for just the hose, and a replacement seal, or complete assembly.

 

We cannot advise someone to do the work.

 

Unfortunately, to do the job whilst the boat is in the water will not be easy. As soon as you remove the seal, you will have to stem the inflow of water. I am not sure that you will find someone to attempt this. Also you could find other issues. There must be a reason that the hose has failed as it has. Maybe the body has an issue and the shaft may need to be cleaned.

 

end of quote

 

and yes it must be seized as no cooling water feed to the stern gland.

so I’ve asked, this will be the case, so what damage do you think I’m looking at

the hose. Price and lead time for just the hose, and a replacement seal, or complete assembly.

 

We cannot advise someone to do the work.

 

Unfortunately, to do the job whilst the boat is in the water will not be easy. As soon as you remove the seal, you will have to stethe inflow of water. I am not sure that you will find someone to attempt this. Also you could find other issues. There must be a reason that the hose has failed as it has. Maybe the body has an issue and the shaft may need to be cleaned.The thing I have to add, when we got the boat, there was only the shaft their, and that was seized in, when we finally got it to turndidn’t leak any water then!!

 

 

drrrrr. Of course it wouldn’t still had thisstern gland in. 😂 

Edited July 15, 2022 by bigcol

[bigcol]

12 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Google will have some on you can read up on.

Thanks having a look now. 👍 

[PaulJ]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Well in my experience they're a good make of water lubricated stern gland, however they are not respected. Not on this forum at least.

 

There must be many thousands of them on boats in this country but we still hear people telling us how terrible they are and how they will fail catastrophically, with little evidence for these claims. I'm pretty sure that's simply down to the luddite tendencies of narrowboaters. 

Most of them as you say are very reliable and well proven. 

The only type I have come across that can cause problems is the type with two rubber cups that press together with brass faces. If the brass face parts company with the cup (and does happen although I suspect it does that with lack of lubrication) you have a very drippy problem. 

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, bigcol said:

As  you mentioned Tony take it apart, at least one end and delve arround in there.

 

1st thing Ive notice there’s no water pick up conected,! so yes your right it must be seized up

so will investigate. I’m also talking to Johnathon from t Norris, he’s said the same have a look, but don’t go to far, in case there too much water.

the reason why I imagine that the water pick up want conected as the boat builders hadn’t installed a engine to conect with.

 

N Norris is saying it be difficault doing it in the water

to lift it out is £1500 crane lol

i mean if I buy the water pick up kit, and a boot, I may be luck???

 

below is a copy of Sureseal  n norris

 

Colin

Can you advise the shaft size please. I am checking the part number to see if we can identify the hose. Price and lead time for just the hose, and a replacement seal, or complete assembly.

 

We cannot advise someone to do the work.

 

Unfortunately, to do the job whilst the boat is in the water will not be easy. As soon as you remove the seal, you will have to stem the inflow of water. I am not sure that you will find someone to attempt this. Also you could find other issues. There must be a reason that the hose has failed as it has. Maybe the body has an issue and the shaft may need to be cleaned.

 

end of quote

 

and yes it must be seized as no cooling water feed to the stern gland.

so I’ve asked, this will be the case, so what damage do you think I’m looking at

the hos

Unfortunately, to do the job whilst the boat is in the water will not be easy. As soon as you remove the seal, you will have to stethe inflow of water. I am not sure that you will find someone to attempt this. Also you could find other issues. There must be a reason that the hose has failed as it has. Maybe the body has an issue and the shaft may need to be cleaned.The thing I have to add, when we got the boat, there was only the shaft their, and that was seized in, when we finally got it to turndidn’t leak any water then!!

 

drrrrr. Of course it wouldn’t still had this stern gland in. 😂 

 

To try to answer your questions and worries.

 

First of all I have never dealt with one of these seals and stern gear so what i say is based on the website and experience similar products.

 

If I am correct about the back shaft bearing being a Cutless bearing the bearing itself will go some way to reducing the water flow, the water will have to pass up the gaps in the rubber flutes. If you managed to pack around the shaft and the back of the boat with mastic bandage you may well be able you reduce the water ingress to a trickle or nothing at all. If you don't have a weed hatch that means getting wet and breath holding - still it is the right time of year.

 

I would certainly loosen the faceplate screws and ease it forward to assess the degree of water ingress and how the bilge pump will cope with that volume.

 

The bearing that will  really suffer from lack of water is the shaft bearing(s), not the PTFE one mentioned on the website. PTFE is one of the most slippery substances known so should cope far better with no water than a fluted rubber tube (the Cutless bearing). If not too much water flows in when you loosen the faceplate I would take it off and look inside. I think you may well get a look at the front of the PTFE bearing from there and can test for wear by assessing the lateral and vertical movement of the front of the hose where the clips are.

 

Long term running with restricted water flow to the Cutless bearing is likely to cause excess wear and if it has the the whole stern tube may have to come out to push the bearing out and  a new one in, however it might just be a casting outside the boat that needs removing, it all depends on the design details, which ever it is  a slipway job. You can test for wear by seeing how much you can move the prop vertically and sideways.

 

I have no idea what has caused the hose to go hard except possibly heat but perhaps some plastic parts of the gland have melted and been deposited on the inside. If you are careful and have lots of greasy rag to hand to stuff between the hose and shaft if the worst comes to the worst, you could try removing the actual gland, leaving the hose in place. That would give you access to inspect the shaft where the PTFE bearing runs and the inside of the hose and I would  expect that you could push the gland assembly back into the hose in the vast majority of cases. However, do the checks on water flow detailed at the start of this before even thinking about undoing those hose clips.

 

Although coupling the gland water pipe into the raw water system is the usual way on boats using raw water on dry exhaust tank cooled boats the hose just runs into the weed hatch so the tube and bearing can fill with  water. I am sure the Vetus diagrams shows this method. Even without a weed hatch this could probably be adapted for a through hull fitting.

 

When Cutless bearings run a bit dry they often make a rhythmic "chirping" at low speed, I have not hear one banging, but it is possible.

 

I think that you may be going to get wet today

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Well in my experience they're a good make of water lubricated stern gland, however they are not respected. Not on this forum at least.

 

There must be many thousands of them on boats in this country but we still hear people telling us how terrible they are and how they will fail catastrophically, with little evidence for these claims. I'm pretty sure that's simply down to the luddite tendencies of narrowboaters. Meanwhile we see plenty of posts about conventional greasy stern glands which have malfunctioned in one way or another, seized up, etc. Sometimes that's just due to a lack of maintenance of course.

 

All I know is that my vetus water lubricated gland has been fine for the last 17 years, requires minimal maintenance and I'd rather have that than a messy and polluting greasy gland. 

 

What I want to know is how many of those thousands of inland boaters who have such seals actually do the maintenance at the intervals stated by the manufacturers and how many believe the vendors who say they are maintenance free.

 

If anyone is worried about pollution from conventional glands then I believe there are vegetable/animal based greases that will address that issue.

 

Apart from a turn or two on a greaser a properly installed conventional gland that is isolated from all engine movement normally needs no maintenance for 20 years or more, as proven on my ex hire boat.

 

Trying to protect the stern gland, any gland, from engine movement but using rubber shaft bearings and flexible glands (including packed glands) does not seem the safest long term solution to me, as Bigcol seems to have found out and the chap I know who had a hose clip tail cut into a Volvo Penta packless gland bellows.

[bigcol]

Thank you very much for your post

we have just ordered the Denso tape lol

i won’t be doing that today

will get it sealed on the outside and then the inside

but before that I’m going to hunt down a engineer who will either repair or fit another make while we are still in the water
 

a Widebeam next door neighbour, has also got a water cooled stern gland. He’s had his boat for 6 years

he haven’t got his one connected to water either!!!!

im going to ask him, has he done anything to it

hes done a lot of miles on the canal, as he was a continuous cruiser for 5 years.

never had a problem?

Edited July 15, 2022 by bigcol

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, bigcol said:

a Widebeam next door neighbour, has also got a water cooled stern gland. He’s had his boat for 6 years

he haven’t got his one connected to water either!!!!

 

I just wish people would recognise that the important bit is the water lubricated aft bearing, not water cooling for the gland. In the case of Vetus and yours the glands are lip seals, and they don't need much lubricating. Yours may have a very lightly loaded bearing just behind the gland but again it is water for lubrication rather than cooling.

 

Looking at the web images I think the water injection tube may bell be behind the PTFE bearing so the only reason would be to get water through the shaft bearing.

[BWM]

I'm fairly certain that this is the same type of hose, used widely in motorsport and turbo intercoolers. If you are lucky with the bearings it may be a solution. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Straight-Reinforced-Silicone-Hose-Coolant-Water-Boost-Inlet-Pipes-500mm-piece-/113300673666?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

[Tony Brooks]

I note that Tidesmarine say that  due to supply problems they now supply straight hose. That may or may not be the type in the link. The only thing I would be a bit wary of is if the reinforcing is  a plastic spiral, because I had a spiral reinforced plastic hose unwrap itself and split along the reinforcing. This was on a conventional stern gland that had one half of the anti-twist dogs cut off. I am sure the torque on that hose was far greater than that with just a lip seal and PTFE bearing on the shaft

[bigcol]

Thank you Tony I will watch out for that,when I order making sure I’m getting the right boot, and material.

BWM ta for that, but the one that you sent the link for, don’t think that will be ok, I may be wrong but one end has to fit over the steel hull surrounding the hole, with the shaft in.

The other end fits over the bearing  end. Which I think is diferent size

 

col

Edited July 15, 2022 by bigcol

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, bigcol said:

The other end fits over the bearing  end. Which I think is diferent size

 

The note on the Tidesmarine site did mention that they would machine as required, but they were on about new glands.