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41 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

* The reason why UK houses are less well insulated than those of continental Euorpe is probably down to the fact that we do not have to cope with the temperature extremes experienced in Europe. In mediterranean countries, insulation is necessary to cope with summer heat, in northern countries, winter cold.  I used to work with a German guy who had lived and studied in several European countries, who was bemused by the fuss made in the media when we had a  cold snap of around -5°C.  He said that back home on Minich, not only were the winter temperatures often -20°C for days on end, but the summer temperatures were much higher than the UK norm.  I remember learning in school geography lessons that the moderating effect of being surrounded by the sea was the reason for our less extreme climate, the gulf stream keeping us warmer in winter. 

 

* A couple of decades ago, one of the big hire firms (I forget which one) offered some electric boats. While silent cruising was attractive, what put me off was the need to virtually follow a fixed itinery between, and moor over night at,  boatyards where charging facilities had been  provided.

 

* Diversity is a fundamental factor in the design electricity distribution networks.  Your local substation will have been dimensioned for a peak power demand lasting for a certain period of tine during which its transformer will heat up, followed by a period of lesser demand (normally overnight)  where it can cool down again.  If the period of high dernand is extended, such as could well be the case with mass adoption of overnight EV charging and heat pumps, many of which I understand need to run 24/7, then the substations will either have to be derated, or else replaced with higher-rated transformers with better cooling.

 

A few years ago "Modern Railways" reported that one of the rail franchises on the old Southern Region had bought a fleet of trains that were longer, heavier, and, being air-conditioned, drew significantly more current than the existing stock. They  were also  intending to operate a more intensive service outside the previous peak hours. Unfortunately they didn't check with Railtrack first. It turned out that the existing electricity supply could only just cope with the power demands of the old rolling stock. It couldn't cope with the new longer trains running the existing service frequency, and it certainly couldn't cope with a longer peak service because the safe temperature limits of the transformers would have been breached. So the planned services were never operated as intended. Covid-mandated service reductions must have come as a relief.

 

 

The National Grid has said that they don't see a big problem with the additional load of charging EVs and heat pumps -- which don't have to run 24h a day, any more than gas boilers do, you usually want the house to be cooler at night. IIRC their estimate was that the additional investment required was something like an extra 5% of what needs to be spent anyway between now and 2050.

 

I assume that since it's their system and they design and run it, they're perfectly well aware of how transformers heat up and cool down, especially if the extra loads from EVs will mostly be overnight when there's spare grid capacity (cheaper power) but also lower temperatures, and took this into account when making their calculations.

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4 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

I get the impression that certified installers charge more for labour to the value of the available grant, so the consumer saves nothing and the installer reaps the benefit.

This is so true. I had a quote for solar and the government reduced the guaranteed buy price, the installer gave me a reduced quotation in days. They were just quoting the same as you would save in 10 years, nothing to do with the real price of the job

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4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is so true. I had a quote for solar and the government reduced the guaranteed buy price, the installer gave me a reduced quotation in days. They were just quoting the same as you would save in 10 years, nothing to do with the real price of the job

Were you able to work out the pay back period for a professionally installed solar PV system now the incentives have been slashed? 

Higher electricity prices will work in its favour, but as interest rates on savings rise, the opportunity cost of money spent will also increase which will extend the payback period. 

 

That's if you believe the output figures that the installer quotes, which are going to be optimistic, and that's being generous!

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5 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The National Grid has said that they don't see a big problem with the additional load of charging EVs and heat pumps -- which don't have to run 24h a day, any more than gas boilers do, you usually want the house to be cooler at night. IIRC their estimate was that the additional investment required was something like an extra 5% of what needs to be spent anyway between now and 2050.

 

I assume that since it's their system and they design and run it, they're perfectly well aware of how transformers heat up and cool down, especially if the extra loads from EVs will mostly be overnight when there's spare grid capacity (cheaper power) but also lower temperatures, and took this into account when making their calculations.

What makes me smile, is the number of people on Speak EV are going solar and batteries to help clean up emissions, most are planning on changing cars as well. Whilst winter will be an issue they will really be doing their bit for the planet 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

What makes me smile, is the number of people on Speak EV are going solar and batteries to help clean up emissions, most are planning on changing cars as well. Whilst winter will be an issue they will really be doing their bit for the planet 

 

They will be like the cities in Germany - no lights, and hot showers 'banned'.

 

 

A German city has banned hot water and heating in public buildings after Russia cut back its gas supplies to the country.

Hanover’s drastic move - which will also affect swimming pools, sports halls and gyms - comes after Vladimir Putin reduced gas flow to the country by 20 per cent.

Residents of the city have already started to take cold showers as the city’s mayor Belit Onay said they have to reduce energy consumption by 15 per cent due to the “imminent gas shortage”.

“The situation is unpredictable, as the last few days have shown,” he said. “The state capital is still trying to prepare as best it can. We see it as our responsibility here and we have to move forward. Every kilowatt hour saved protects the gas storage.”

While Hanover is the first city to experience the squeeze, more of Germany will follow suit as a significant reduction in gas usage will take place between April and September each year.

 

In recent weeks, officials from Germany and other EU member states have begun to talk openly and urgently about the need for immediate reductions in consumption in advance of the peak winter heating season.

They have also started to plan publicly for compulsory allocation, including rationing and prioritisation among industrial users, as well as sharing among member states in the event there is not enough gas to supply everyone.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

They will be like the cities in Germany - no lights, and hot showers 'banned'.

 

 

A German city has banned hot water and heating in public buildings after Russia cut back its gas supplies to the country.

Hanover’s drastic move - which will also affect swimming pools, sports halls and gyms - comes after Vladimir Putin reduced gas flow to the country by 20 per cent.

Residents of the city have already started to take cold showers as the city’s mayor Belit Onay said they have to reduce energy consumption by 15 per cent due to the “imminent gas shortage”.

“The situation is unpredictable, as the last few days have shown,” he said. “The state capital is still trying to prepare as best it can. We see it as our responsibility here and we have to move forward. Every kilowatt hour saved protects the gas storage.”

While Hanover is the first city to experience the squeeze, more of Germany will follow suit as a significant reduction in gas usage will take place between April and September each year.

 

In recent weeks, officials from Germany and other EU member states have begun to talk openly and urgently about the need for immediate reductions in consumption in advance of the peak winter heating season.

They have also started to plan publicly for compulsory allocation, including rationing and prioritisation among industrial users, as well as sharing among member states in the event there is not enough gas to supply everyone.

Does the UK have a problem with supply, or just the price of gas?

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No, we are no longer in Europe so can get our gas from anywhere we want.

 

Apparently there's lots of methane on Venus, maybe we can buy some of that? 😉

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When I visited Backnang in Germany a couple of decades ago, the streets in the picturesque town centre were mostly lit using triple-burner gas lamps atop Victorian lamp-posts. They gave out a very pleasant light. I wonder if they have been converted to LEDs yet?

Edited by Ronaldo47
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

They will be like the cities in Germany - no lights, and hot showers 'banned'.

 

 

A German city has banned hot water and heating in public buildings after Russia cut back its gas supplies to the country.

Hanover’s drastic move - which will also affect swimming pools, sports halls and gyms - comes after Vladimir Putin reduced gas flow to the country by 20 per cent.

Residents of the city have already started to take cold showers as the city’s mayor Belit Onay said they have to reduce energy consumption by 15 per cent due to the “imminent gas shortage”.

“The situation is unpredictable, as the last few days have shown,” he said. “The state capital is still trying to prepare as best it can. We see it as our responsibility here and we have to move forward. Every kilowatt hour saved protects the gas storage.”

While Hanover is the first city to experience the squeeze, more of Germany will follow suit as a significant reduction in gas usage will take place between April and September each year.

 

In recent weeks, officials from Germany and other EU member states have begun to talk openly and urgently about the need for immediate reductions in consumption in advance of the peak winter heating season.

They have also started to plan publicly for compulsory allocation, including rationing and prioritisation among industrial users, as well as sharing among member states in the event there is not enough gas to supply everyone.

Well a lot to be said about having supplies like us rather than reserves like Europe, WV  argued that they were better off than us!! Turns out that he was wrong Alan? Ultimately the EU are ripping each other to bits on this, glad we have left because it will get nasty 

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1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

Does the UK have a problem with supply, or just the price of gas?

We have our own supplies and apparently we are awash with gas that's being transhipped by pipeline across the UK to Europe.

It's a mess though I was posted to Germany and the Netherlands and enjoyed my times there 

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53 minutes ago, peterboat said:

We have our own supplies and apparently we are awash with gas that's being transhipped by pipeline across the UK to Europe.

It's a mess though I was posted to Germany and the Netherlands and enjoyed my times there 

I wonder where all that gas is coming from. When I retired they were installing an interconnector pipeline coming into Bacton to export gas but I understand it was only used for import, buying gas from abroad because we didn't have enough. Are they selling our excess summer gas so we are short in winter?

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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder where all that gas is coming from. When I retired they were installing an interconnector pipeline coming into Bacton to export gas but I understand it was only used for import, buying gas from abroad because we didn't have enough. Are they selling our excess summer gas so we are short in winter?

 

 

The UK’s reliance on Russian gas is far less significant, at just 3 per cent. About half of the UK’s gas comes from the North Sea, and a third is sourced from Norway. The rest is made up of imports of liquefied natural gas (LNG) transported to the UK by sea from countries such as Qatar and the US.

 

 

Great Britain’s highly diverse supply sources include pipelines from the UK and Norway continental shelf, interconnectors with the continent, and 3 liquified natural gas ( LNG) terminals, providing Britain with one of the largest LNG import infrastructures in Europe. Germany, for example, has no LNG import terminals.

 

Data from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy shows UK production and imports in gigawatt hours in 2020 as follows:

UK - 438,520
Norway - 266,155
Qatar - 96,904
USA - 53,439
Russia - 24,635
Trinidad and Tobago - 11,190
Netherlands - 11,073
Belgium - 7,548
Nigeria - 3,688
Egypt - 2,040
France - 1,079
Algeria - 488

 

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48 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder where all that gas is coming from. When I retired they were installing an interconnector pipeline coming into Bacton to export gas but I understand it was only used for import, buying gas from abroad because we didn't have enough. Are they selling our excess summer gas so we are short in winter?

 

Yes. They have to, since finishing shutting down the Rough gas storage facility a couple of years ago. We can now apparently, buy gas from abroad on a "need it today" basis instead of storing it. 

 

Good move, Boris, letting British Gas Storage do this.

 

 

 

 

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On 30/07/2022 at 00:28, MtB said:

 

Yes. They have to, since finishing shutting down the Rough gas storage facility a couple of years ago. We can now apparently, buy gas from abroad on a "need it today" basis instead of storing it. 

 

Good move, Boris, letting British Gas Storage do this.

 

 

 

 

Yep, it always was a short sighted policy.

They are looking to reopen it now though
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/21/britains-biggest-gas-storage-site-course-reopen-autumn-race/

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1 hour ago, Galoka said:

Yep, it always was a short sighted policy.

They are looking to reopen it now though
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/21/britains-biggest-gas-storage-site-course-reopen-autumn-race/

It was owned by Centreca I believe and the costs at the time were prohibitive to repair. We do have our own gas supply which does over 50% of our needs, although I have read that production has been increasing to help out Europe 

On 29/07/2022 at 23:50, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The UK’s reliance on Russian gas is far less significant, at just 3 per cent. About half of the UK’s gas comes from the North Sea, and a third is sourced from Norway. The rest is made up of imports of liquefied natural gas (LNG) transported to the UK by sea from countries such as Qatar and the US.

 

 

Great Britain’s highly diverse supply sources include pipelines from the UK and Norway continental shelf, interconnectors with the continent, and 3 liquified natural gas ( LNG) terminals, providing Britain with one of the largest LNG import infrastructures in Europe. Germany, for example, has no LNG import terminals.

 

Data from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy shows UK production and imports in gigawatt hours in 2020 as follows:

UK - 438,520
Norway - 266,155
Qatar - 96,904
USA - 53,439
Russia - 24,635
Trinidad and Tobago - 11,190
Netherlands - 11,073
Belgium - 7,548
Nigeria - 3,688
Egypt - 2,040
France - 1,079
Algeria - 488

 

The remainers don't like us doing better than the EU Alan 

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On 29/07/2022 at 23:34, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder where all that gas is coming from. When I retired they were installing an interconnector pipeline coming into Bacton to export gas but I understand it was only used for import, buying gas from abroad because we didn't have enough. Are they selling our excess summer gas so we are short in winter?

How can we be short in winter? We have our own gas plus a dedicated pipeline to Norway with contract, also we have LNG terminals which are currently operating at full decompressing gas and pumping it to Europe 

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3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The remainers don't like us doing better than the EU Alan 

 

Maybe some or a few remainers but that certainly in not true in my case. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive imbalance between what we are doing better and what the EU are doing better and no amount of wishful thinking will alter that for now.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Maybe some or a few remainers but that certainly in not true in my case. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive imbalance between what we are doing better and what the EU are doing better and no amount of wishful thinking will alter that for now.

I wouldn't know Tony what happens I have no passport, we stopped holidaying in the EU ages ago as it was far to expensive and frankly crap! We used to go to Rome, but the last time we went it was a graffiti everywhere as they were so unhappy with their government. Also homeless people everywhere including many very old people frankly it was like a 3rd world city 

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24 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I wouldn't know Tony what happens I have no passport, we stopped holidaying in the EU ages ago as it was far to expensive and frankly crap! We used to go to Rome, but the last time we went it was a graffiti everywhere as they were so unhappy with their government. Also homeless people everywhere including many very old people frankly it was like a 3rd world city 

 

Not unlike London then...

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Way more graffiti and old homelessness in Rome 

 

I guess you haven't seen "cardboard city" under Waterloo Bridge then. Lots of graffiti and homeless of every age.

 

I used to walk past it most nights when I worked in London.

Edited by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.
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37 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I guess you haven't seen "cardboard city" under Waterloo Bridge then. Lots of graffiti and homeless of every age.

 

I used to walk past it most nights when I worked in London.

I haven't, but in Rome in November, they were living in Bus shelters, an Italian explained the problem, normally family look after old people so no system is in place to provide, unfortunately either they either had no children or they have died. 

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