Hybrid drive conversion question

[Bargebuilder]

On 24/07/2022 at 19:25, IanD said:

Typical propulsion use is around 14kWh for an 8h cruising day, solar on a narrowboat can provide about half of that in summer (7kWh), maybe 2kWh in winter

If this summer is an indication of what the 'global warming' future holds, then solar panels might be even more productive in coming years, making the solar boat more practical. The problem my be, that water levels will be so low that we won't be able to cruise extensively during the summer months any more.😕

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

If this summer is an indication of what the 'global warming' future holds, then solar panels might be even more productive in coming years, making the solar boat more practical. The problem my be, that water levels will be so low that we won't be able to cruise extensively during the summer months any more.😕

 

Solar on a narrowboat (assuming plenty of panels e.g. 2kW) is already pretty practical in the summer, if you only cruise for a couple of days a week you probably don't need to run the generator at all -- assuming there's any water... 😞

 

But in winter it's never going to be enough, even if we get more sun, there just isn't enough space to get enough panels in. Peter's wideboat would probably be fine all year though... 😉

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Solar on a narrowboat (assuming plenty of panels e.g. 2kW) is already pretty practical in the summer, if you only cruise for a couple of days a week you probably don't need to run the generator at all -- assuming there's any water... 😞

 

But in winter it's never going to be enough, even if we get more sun, there just isn't enough space to get enough panels in. Peter's wideboat would probably be fine all year though... 😉

Winter I am a few KWHs short which is why I have the genny and the whispergen before it. Sunny winter days are good though, however like today warm dark I have enough to do domestic only, like your plans though the genny produces enough power for the electric motor so I could cruise but would prefer not to

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Winter I am a few KWHs short which is why I have the genny and the whispergen before it. Sunny winter days are good though, however like today warm dark I have enough to do domestic only, like your plans though the genny produces enough power for the electric motor so I could cruise but would prefer not to

 

So you would probably be OK if global heating means we get more sun and you had the maximum size of panels that would fit -- which is what I said... 😉

Edited July 28, 2022 by IanD

[smiler]

On 26/07/2022 at 20:11, Bargebuilder said:

If we are to believe the BBC and 40% of households will indeed soon be in fuel poverty, how many households will need a 3rd party to pay for upgraded insulation, larger radiators and a heat pump powerful enough to replace their current fossil fuel consuming boiler?

 

One of you will know what all of the above might cost, but how could any government fund such an upgrade for 40% of households, or even a proportion of it?

Let The Labour Party back in. I seem to remember they were quite good at spending money they didn't have.😇

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Solar on a narrowboat (assuming plenty of panels e.g. 2kW) is already pretty practical in the summer, if you only cruise for a couple of days a week you probably don't need to run the generator at all -- assuming there's any water... 😞

 

But in winter it's never going to be enough, even if we get more sun, there just isn't enough space to get enough panels in. Peter's wideboat would probably be fine all year though... 😉

It sounds as if 'electric' boats are best suited to live-aboards, those who only do a few hours each day, or only cruise every few days. 

 

I spoke to a live-aboard couple last week who were very pleased with what they described as their hybrid set-up: their cruising pattern was as above. They had bought a package designed by a chap they said was based in the Isle of Wight and it cost them £33k all in, fully installed; they didn't elaborate further. They described it as an indulgence, certainly not to save money, but they enjoyed pottering in silence. 

 

When I am able to grab time on the water I like to cruise long days, every day and I think I'd prefer to spend what they spent on going electric on exotic winter holidays.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, smiler said:

Let The Labour Party back in. I seem to remember they were quite good at spending money they didn't have.😇

So what's *your* suggestion on how to improve insulation and get rid of gas, especially for poorer households?

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

It sounds as if 'electric' boats are best suited to live-aboards, those who only do a few hours each day, or only cruise every few days. 

 

I spoke to a live-aboard couple last week who were very pleased with what they described as their hybrid set-up: their cruising pattern was as above. They had bought a package designed by a chap they said was based in the Isle of Wight and it cost them £33k all in, fully installed; they didn't elaborate further. They described it as an indulgence, certainly not to save money, but they enjoyed pottering in silence. 

 

When I am able to grab time on the water I like to cruise long days, every day and I think I'd prefer to spend what they spent on going electric on exotic winter holidays.

Pure electric boats have very restricted use until there are charging points. Series hybrids are completely practical today (even cruising all day every day) and do burn a lot less fuel than diesels, but are very expensive -- as you say, a luxury to cruise in silence.

 

If you want to spend the money on something else that is entirely your business -- I was going to get a boat built anyway and fortunate to be able to afford the extra cost. Neither choice is "better" than the other... 😉

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

So what's *your* suggestion on how to improve insulation and get rid of gas, especially for poorer households?

I'm not sure what 'smiler' would suggest, but I'm guessing that it's not that the government should pay for 11 million homes to be fitted with upgraded insulation, larger radiators and whole-house heat exchanger installations. What might that cost?

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was going to get a boat built anyway and fortunate to be able to afford the extra cost. Neither choice is "better" than the other... 😉

Fair comment. 

May I ask, do you live aboard, or is yours a 'holiday' NB?

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

So what's *your* suggestion on how to improve insulation and get rid of gas, especially for poorer households?

 

 

I thought his suggestion was get the Labour party into power specifically because they are so good at spending money they don't have. 

 

 

What was it (the then) Mrs Thatcher said? Something like "The trouble with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money", I think. 

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

29 minutes ago, MtB said:

I thought his suggestion was get the Labour party into power specifically because they are so good at spending money they don't have. 

Does anyone know what the Labour party would do if they got into power, in this, or any other matter?

[MtB]

Just now, Bargebuilder said:

Does anyone know what the Labour party would do if they got into power, in this, or any other matter?

 

 

No, they don't. Starmer is deliberately not defining policies on virtually everything, for the same reasons Blair didn't 25 years ago. Leave everyone to have their own expectations of what a Labour administration would do. Worked for Blair, should work for Starmer. 

 

The next GE is Starmers to lose. All he needs to do is keep steady, not mess it up.

[Bargebuilder]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

The next GE is Starmers to lose. All he needs to do is keep steady, not mess it up.

The election, or being in power?

[smiler]

52 minutes ago, IanD said:

So what's *your* suggestion on how to improve insulation and get rid of gas, especially for poorer households?

I would suggest carry on with ICE (it's not too long ago that reserves of oil/gas were found that could keep the world going for another 50 years). Do you really believe all the climate change crap? In the news yesterday was stated this could be the driest July since 190? Because 100 years ago we were all driving Range Rovers?

It gives us 40-50 years time to build a reliable infrastructure/vehicles/boats etc to run on electric/hydrogen or whatever.

[Bargebuilder]

24 minutes ago, smiler said:

I would suggest carry on with ICE (it's not too long ago that reserves of oil/gas were found that could keep the world going for another 50 years). Do you really believe all the climate change crap? In the news yesterday was stated this could be the driest July since 190? Because 100 years ago we were all driving Range Rovers?

It gives us 40-50 years time to build a reliable infrastructure/vehicles/boats etc to run on electric/hydrogen or whatever.

 

http://littleatoms.com/science/how-humanity-postponed-ice-age

 "Now with more than 10,000 years since the end of the last ice age we should soon be due another. But recent research shows that due to the current global warming a new ice age is unlikely to happen for at least 100,000 years."

 

Brrrrrrrrr.❄️

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, smiler said:

I would suggest carry on with ICE (it's not too long ago that reserves of oil/gas were found that could keep the world going for another 50 years). Do you really believe all the climate change crap? In the news yesterday was stated this could be the driest July since 190? Because 100 years ago we were all driving Range Rovers?

It gives us 40-50 years time to build a reliable infrastructure/vehicles/boats etc to run on electric/hydrogen or whatever.

I think "flabbergasted" is the only word that springs to mind -- apart from "astounding ignorance"... 😞

[ditchcrawler]

Getting a bit political for the open forum?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm not sure what 'smiler' would suggest, but I'm guessing that it's not that the government should pay for 11 million homes to be fitted with upgraded insulation, larger radiators and whole-house heat exchanger installations. What might that cost?

Fair comment. 

May I ask, do you live aboard, or is yours a 'holiday' NB?

If the government doesn't pay for it, who does? Or do we just leave the poor with massive fuel bills and still burning fossil fuel? How can the UK meet its emissions targets if half the houses carry on like this?

 

Neither yet, it won't be finished until.next spring -- but it will be used for extended holidays, not full-time living aboard.

Edited July 28, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

If the government doesn't pay for it, who does? Or do we just leave the poor with massive fuel bills and still burning fossil fuel? How can the UK meet its emissions targets if half the houses carry on like this?

I suspect that landlords will be forced to upgrade insulation when they have to renew the energy performance certificate on their properties. No help will be offered. Landlords also have to provide heating, so when gas and oil boilers are no longer available, they will be forced to buy the much more expensive heat exchanger systems. No help will be offered. The 'investment' will represent up to two year's rent and so either rents will go sky high or landlords will sell up; I suspect in many cases the latter, and there is a chronic shortage of 'affordable' rental properties already.

 

I'd be surprised if the home owning less well off will get more than possibly a small grant towards the cost of conversion away from fossil fuel to electric.

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I suspect that landlords will be forced to upgrade insulation when they have to renew the energy performance certificate on their properties. No help will be offered. Landlords also have to provide heating, so when gas and oil boilers are no longer available, they will be forced to buy the much more expensive heat exchanger systems. No help will be offered. The 'investment' will represent up to two year's rent and so either rents will go sky high or landlords will sell up; I suspect in many cases the latter, and there is a chronic shortage of 'affordable' rental properties already.

 

I'd be surprised if the home owning less well off will get more than possibly a small grant towards the cost of conversion away from fossil fuel to electric.

There are already Grant's for it?

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

There are already Grant's for it?

For what?

For whom?

For how much?

To encourage a landlord to abandon gas central heating for a heat exchanger, any grant would have to bridge the financial gap until there is no choice.

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

So you would probably be OK if global heating means we get more sun and you had the maximum size of panels that would fit -- which is what I said... 😉

I am afraid this year has been hotter than last but less sun shinning! Its been a lot of this overcast hot humid weather. On the hottest day it was very hot and sunny early on then by 2 it was getting a bit murky with a very hot wind. We were hidden under a railway bridge came out at half 5 to very little solar. Next day hot and murky again little solar but plenty of warm drizzle. Most of this week has been similar bursts of hot sunshine but lots of murky hot humidity 

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

For what?

For whom?

For how much?

To encourage a landlord to abandon gas central heating for a heat exchanger, any grant would have to bridge the financial gap until there is no choice.

 

You hit the nail on the head there. There are so many of what looks like scams around solar, insulation and energy efficiency measures an individual has great difficulty in knowing who is trustworthy and does a good job. Then there seems to be all sorts of caveats around the government energy saving grants it seems all too easy to be promised something by an installer and then find out you have to pay a lot more because the grant is, for some reason, is not available. However, with the reports about the Covid test companies on the government "approved" list I am not sure such a list of installers/suppliers could be trusted. There is also the fact that trade associations may pretend to uphold standards and protect the customer but in realty they are just an old boys club for their particular trade.

 

As an example, I have been thinking about solar electricity and possibly solar hot water, but it seems before I can even start I need a structural engineer's report to prove my roof is strong enough and that will probably involve removing the 25mm Celotex from the rafters. Will the installer organize this? Will the installer's estimate of yield be even approximately accurate? Will any estimate of price after survey be accurate? There are too many unknowns for ordinary folks with limited money to be comfortable.

[Bargebuilder]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Then there seems to be all sorts of caveats around the government energy saving grants it seems all too easy to be promised something by an installer and then find out you have to pay a lot more because the grant is, for some reason, is not available.

I get the impression that certified installers charge more for labour to the value of the available grant, so the consumer saves nothing and the installer reaps the benefit.

[Ronaldo47]

* The reason why UK houses are less well insulated than those of continental Euorpe is probably down to the fact that we do not have to cope with the temperature extremes experienced in Europe. In mediterranean countries, insulation is necessary to cope with summer heat, in northern countries, winter cold.  I used to work with a German guy who had lived and studied in several European countries, who was bemused by the fuss made in the media when we had a  cold snap of around -5°C.  He said that back home on Minich, not only were the winter temperatures often -20°C for days on end, but the summer temperatures were much higher than the UK norm.  I remember learning in school geography lessons that the moderating effect of being surrounded by the sea was the reason for our less extreme climate, the gulf stream keeping us warmer in winter. 

 

* A couple of decades ago, one of the big hire firms (I forget which one) offered some electric boats. While silent cruising was attractive, what put me off was the need to virtually follow a fixed itinery between, and moor over night at,  boatyards where charging facilities had been  provided.

 

* Diversity is a fundamental factor in the design electricity distribution networks.  Your local substation will have been dimensioned for a peak power demand lasting for a certain period of tine during which its transformer will heat up, followed by a period of lesser demand (normally overnight)  where it can cool down again.  If the period of high dernand is extended, such as could well be the case with mass adoption of overnight EV charging and heat pumps, many of which I understand need to run 24/7, then the substations will either have to be derated, or else replaced with higher-rated transformers with better cooling.

 

A few years ago "Modern Railways" reported that one of the rail franchises on the old Southern Region had bought a fleet of trains that were longer, heavier, and, being air-conditioned, drew significantly more current than the existing stock. They  were also  intending to operate a more intensive service outside the previous peak hours. Unfortunately they didn't check with Railtrack first. It turned out that the existing electricity supply could only just cope with the power demands of the old rolling stock. It couldn't cope with the new longer trains running the existing service frequency, and it certainly couldn't cope with a longer peak service because the safe temperature limits of the transformers would have been breached. So the planned services were never operated as intended. Covid-mandated service reductions must have come as a relief.