Hybrid drive conversion question

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

So you also have a spare motor, and a spare battery bank, and a spare throttle assembly?

 

Hope your anchor is a really good one like Alan recommends, and not only ready to deploy but you've practiced doing it in an emergency... 😉

Why would I need a spare battery bank? My 36 volt batteries are individuals so if one goes duff I can remove it, they also have diagnostic plugs.

The motor is brushed so I carry a brush holder and brushes and yes I have a spare throttle assy plus 2 spare drive belts.

[Bargebuilder]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

with a fully electric boat one would expect a prudent boater  to start with fully charged batteries and planned a selection of stopping points in case conditions got worse and depleted the batteries more than is normal. If there were no such places then that boat is not fit for the journey.

Perhaps technology will improve the situation, but if electric boats are to populate the hire boat industry, they are going to have to be idiot proof. 

 

Will folks who hire boats need to make extensive plans for their week aboard, taking into consideration the distance they want to cover, the speed at which they want or need travel, battery size, capacity and range, location of charge points etc. 

 

Will they need to look after the batteries, charging systems etc or are they indestructible?

 

What if they are stranded with flat batteries.

 

Maybe there are simple solutions to the above.

 

[Lady M]

There have been electric hire boats on the Mon & Brec for decades.

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, Lady C said:

There have been electric hire boats on the Mon & Brec for decades.

Indeed, but the Mon & Brec is almost unique amongst UK canals. Their boats only do 18 miles on a charge, which although suitable there, may be rather frustrating for hirers who want to navigate a ring.

 

Their website says:

"Our electric boats can cover up to eighteen miles on a single charge, so you don’t need to recharge the narrowboat every day. Even when you do want to top up the batteries it’s very simple – just pull up to one of our six charging points"

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

Perhaps technology will improve the situation, but if electric boats are to populate the hire boat industry, they are going to have to be idiot proof. 

 

Will folks who hire boats need to make extensive plans for their week aboard, taking into consideration the distance they want to cover, the speed at which they want or need travel, battery size, capacity and range, location of charge points etc. 

 

Will they need to look after the batteries, charging systems etc or are they indestructible?

 

What if they are stranded with flat batteries.

 

Maybe there are simple solutions to the above.

 

Apply all the same questions to water, which hire boaters seem to mostly be able to cope with... 😉

 

The batteries and charging systems -- if properly designed, which decent commercial ones using LFP batteries are -- *are* pretty much idiot-proof and indestructable. The worst that can happen is running out of power, in which case the drive system will shut down and you're stuck, which is hardly ideal (how do you get going again?) but won't cause any damage. If the boat has solar panels then sitting still for a day or so should give enough charge to get going again, but of course would screw plans up.

 

So as you say -- not ideal for hire boats (especially idiots), but won't be damaged.

 

Of course if diesel is banned in the future (and chargers are rolled out) hire boats will have to go electric, and I'm sure by then -- well in the future! -- bigger battery packs and charging stations will mean this all works.

 

Just because something doesn't work *now* doesn't mean it won't work *forever*... 🙂

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Why would I need a spare battery bank? My 36 volt batteries are individuals so if one goes duff I can remove it, they also have diagnostic plugs.

The motor is brushed so I carry a brush holder and brushes and yes I have a spare throttle assy plus 2 spare drive belts.

 

The point I was making Peter -- as I'm sure you're well aware -- is that an electric/hybrid boat is neither inherently more or less reliable than a diesel boat, there are always multiple things which can go wrong which bring the boat to a standstill. The key to reliability is to have it properly built with good-quality components, and carry spares for the most likely things which might fail.

[Lady M]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

Indeed, but the Mon & Brec is almost unique amongst UK canals. Their boats only do 18 miles on a charge, which although suitable there, may be rather frustrating for hirers who want to navigate a ring.

 

Their website says:

"Our electric boats can cover up to eighteen miles on a single charge, so you don’t need to recharge the narrowboat every day. Even when you do want to top up the batteries it’s very simple – just pull up to one of our six charging points"

It's a very slow canal.  I was just pointing out that it is being done, presumably successfully given the longevity.

[peterboat]

16 hours ago, IanD said:

Apply all the same questions to water, which hire boaters seem to mostly be able to cope with... 😉

 

The batteries and charging systems -- if properly designed, which decent commercial ones using LFP batteries are -- *are* pretty much idiot-proof and indestructable. The worst that can happen is running out of power, in which case the drive system will shut down and you're stuck, which is hardly ideal (how do you get going again?) but won't cause any damage. If the boat has solar panels then sitting still for a day or so should give enough charge to get going again, but of course would screw plans up.

 

So as you say -- not ideal for hire boats (especially idiots), but won't be damaged.

 

Of course if diesel is banned in the future (and chargers are rolled out) hire boats will have to go electric, and I'm sure by then -- well in the future! -- bigger battery packs and charging stations will mean this all works.

 

Just because something doesn't work *now* doesn't mean it won't work *forever*... 🙂

 

The point I was making Peter -- as I'm sure you're well aware -- is that an electric/hybrid boat is neither inherently more or less reliable than a diesel boat, there are always multiple things which can go wrong which bring the boat to a standstill. The key to reliability is to have it properly built with good-quality components, and carry spares for the most likely things which might fail.

True if my motor failed I could swop it out in half an hour, remove cooling, undo the power cables, remove 4 mounting bolts motor off! Change pulley and refit easy, it's not heavy so one man/woman job simples 

[Bargebuilder]

11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

True if my motor failed I could swop it out in half an hour, remove cooling, undo the power cables, remove 4 mounting bolts motor off! Change pulley and refit easy, it's not heavy so one man/woman job simples 

That is indeed a huge advantage: do you think that electric motors, control systems and batteries are likely to last for the 40 years or more that a well maintained diesel engine could be reasonably be expected to achieve?

 

Not that it's relevant, if diesels should be banned.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

That is indeed a huge advantage: do you think that electric motors, control systems and batteries are likely to last for the 40 years or more that a well maintained diesel engine could be reasonably be expected to achieve?

 

Not that it's relevant, if diesels should be banned.

The simple answer is that a properly designed electric drivetrain is likely to last as long as the rest of the boat -- high-quality LFP batteries are rated for about 3000 cycles at 100% capacity, which works out to about 20 years of full-day cruising (60000hrs runtime), so in reality at least 40 years of CCing. Even if they then needed replacing it would cost far less than today. A diesel is unlikely to last anywhere close to this long without a major rebuild...

[Tacet]

On 13/07/2022 at 19:17, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The actual RCD statement is :

 

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this order

 

Maybe Peters 'official' was just putting his interpretation into it and reading the second sentence only.

 

It clearly states THAT ANY CHANGE in the means of propulsion is a craft conversion and would therefore require a PCA

The regulations https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/part/1/made?view=plain define "means of propulsion" as the method by which the watercraft is propelled.

 

So you cannot change (without crossing the line) the method of propulsion - which, to my mind, relates to (for example) a shift from a screw propeller to paddle wheels.  A rare occurrence and not one under discussion here.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Tacet said:

The regulations https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/part/1/made?view=plain define "means of propulsion" as the method by which the watercraft is propelled.

 

So you cannot change (without crossing the line) the method of propulsion - which, to my mind, relates to (for example) a shift from a screw propeller to paddle wheels.  A rare occurrence and not one under discussion here.

 

 

 

Good luck arguing that - the definition of propulsion "is the power that moves something, especially a vehicle, in a forward direction. [...]" rather than the method by which that power is converted into movement, but ignoring that for a moment :

 

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this order

 

The second option 'a major engine modification' would surely cover a change from an Diesel engine, to an LPG engine or a Electric Motor or ......

 

And, having now read a few 100 more pages of the RCD, I was incorrect about the installation of a new engine greater than 10% more HP than the original engine requiring a PCA.

 

It is actually 15%.

 

 

Just as an asde there used to be a rearmounted paddle-wheel narrowboat that cruised the Llangollen and Shroppie, when we had our Mooring at Whixhall we saw it regularly.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

That is indeed a huge advantage: do you think that electric motors, control systems and batteries are likely to last for the 40 years or more that a well maintained diesel engine could be reasonably be expected to achieve?

 

Not that it's relevant, if diesels should be banned.

I think the batteries will as Ian says last the distance, they aren't under massive stress, my motor is air cooled it's a Cedric lynch motor have a Google at him. It's a DC motor with brushes which has disadvantages however they are cheap and easily repaired plus the controller is cheap as well, 400 squids buys me a UK made quality controller. 

Now I have because of finding cheap 36 volts batteries made life a little harder for myself, Ian will operate at 48 volts and will have no need of a domestic battery bank which reduces costs, me I have to have 2 systems one at 24 the other 72 volts but I survive with it

[cuthound]

52 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just as an asde there used to be a rearmounted paddle-wheel narrowboat that cruised the Llangollen and Shroppie.

 

 

 

 

I recall a short narrowboat powered by a stern mounted paddlewheel on the GU in the 1990's.

 

IIRC it was called Jethro Tull

 

For the avoidance of doubt, my own boat has a conventional propellor, powered by a Beta 43.

Edited July 18, 2022 by cuthound
Tull, not Till, buddy autokreck

[IanD]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

I recall a short narrowboat powered by a stern mounted paddlewheel on the GU in the 1990's.

 

IIRC it was called Jethro Tull

 

For the avoidance of doubt, my own boat has a conventional propellor, powered by a Beta 43.

IIRC the paddlewheel narrowboat was also horrendously slow and drank fuel -- there are good reasons why propellers replaced paddlewheels...

 

https://www.imarest.org/themarineprofessional/on-the-radar/6252-battle-of-the-paddles-versus-propellers

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Good luck arguing that - the definition of propulsion "is the power that moves something, especially a vehicle, in a forward direction. [...]" rather than the method by which that power is converted into movement, but ignoring that for a moment :

 

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this order

 

The second option 'a major engine modification' would surely cover a change from an Diesel engine, to an LPG engine or a Electric Motor or ......

 

 

 

I will take my chances on arguing the the method of propulsion point - as that is the definition within the same Regulations whereas your definition is from elsewhere and overlooks the preceding "means".  It makes less grammatical sense if you insert that word to read "means of the power that moves something...."

 

A major engine modification is caught separately, as you say, but I am less sure that a change of engine would fall under a modification.  No doubt somewhere else; more googling needed.  In any event, whether a  particular modification is a major one will be fun.  Converting from petrol to LPG - or paraffin is not that big a deal.

 

The Regs (s3 Scope) cover propulsion engines, which are defined as internal combustion engines.  Again more googling required, but it looks as though you can change between electric, steam and quadraped with impunity.   I think (less than sure) that a switch from diesel to electric power is caught.

 

The Charlotte Dundas was a chain driven sternwheeler much like the one in your image - but located on the Kennet & Avon in 1990 and thereabouts.  It shifted as I recall failing to keep pace with it.  However, it didn't feather its blades and therefore made a fearsome slapping sound.

 

 

 

 

[peterboat]

12 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

I will take my chances on arguing the the method of propulsion point - as that is the definition within the same Regulations whereas your definition is from elsewhere and overlooks the preceding "means".  It makes less grammatical sense if you insert that word to read "means of the power that moves something...."

 

A major engine modification is caught separately, as you say, but I am less sure that a change of engine would fall under a modification.  No doubt somewhere else; more googling needed.  In any event, whether a  particular modification is a major one will be fun.  Converting from petrol to LPG - or paraffin is not that big a deal.

 

The Regs (s3 Scope) cover propulsion engines, which are defined as internal combustion engines.  Again more googling required, but it looks as though you can change between electric, steam and quadraped with impunity.   I think (less than sure) that a switch from diesel to electric power is caught.

 

The Charlotte Dundas was a chain driven sternwheeler much like the one in your image - but located on the Kennet & Avon in 1990 and thereabouts.  It shifted as I recall failing to keep pace with it.  However, it didn't feather its blades and therefore made a fearsome slapping sound.

 

 

 

 

There was no issues moving from Diesel to electric from BSS or RCD, Dave at the BSS office contacted RCD for me for clarification. 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

There was no issues moving from Diesel to electric from BSS or RCD, Dave at the BSS office contacted RCD for me for clarification. 

Who is this mythical being called RCD - there is no such entity.

The RCD is a list of specifications drawn together by Politicians  who then write up a 'forward' to the specification list  and call it a 'Directive'.

 

Each country must then appoint an authorised body to maintain the system - in the UK this is the Secretary of State.

 

I'd personally be interested to whom the BSS spoke that was in a position to make such a decision. I can only assume it was the Recreational Craft Sectoral Group (RSG) that has been established to assist in the uniform application and interpretation of the actual version of the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) but, if not then who was it ?

 

 

 

[peterboat]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Who is this mythical being called RCD - there is no such entity.

The RCD is a list of specifications drawn together by Politicians  who then write up a 'forward' to the specification list  and call it a 'Directive'.

 

Each country must then appoint an authorised body to maintain the system - in the UK this is the Secretary of State.

 

I'd personally be interested to whom the BSS spoke that was in a position to make such a decision. I can only assume it was the Recreational Craft Sectoral Group (RSG) that has been established to assist in the uniform application and interpretation of the actual version of the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) but, if not then who was it ?

 

 

 

Dave was the chap in charge of the BSS and it's the BSS that would have to police it. All I know is he rang me back a few minutes later and said as it was cleaner it was ok, the BSS later confirmed it, the insurance know about it so I ain't worried.

[Jimbo435]

On 13/07/2022 at 14:02, David Mack said:

But who is that SOMEONE? Nothing will happen if SOMEONE can't make money out of it.

A few boat charging points might get installed at marinas, especially if they operate day hire boats, but it is difficult to see where a network of charge points across the system will come from.

First step as I see it is some companies need to start engineering an onboard charger for narrowboats.  Many don't realize this, but EV charger circuitry is onboard the car.  The connection (EVSA) is just a smart wall plug so as not to electrocute the user/over charge the car.  So until electric boats have chargers installed, no fast charging can be done.  I don't think slow (230V), what we in California call Level 2 chargers, are useful for narrowboats except maybe in marinas because it takes hours to top off.  Once there are solutions for chargers on boats, then fast (Level 3  100's of volts DC) chargers can be positioned where boaters now get diesel.  Then boats can tie up, plug in, and go from 20-80% in about 15-20 minutes.  Faster with the latest technology.  Someone (CRT) needs to get ahead of these standards so we don't end up with 2-3 standards like we have with EVs.

[IanD]

Given that boats tend to travel rather more slowly and with less urgency than cars, and with longer stops for things like filling the water tank, lunch, pub and shopping stops, why is there any need to "fill up" in such a short time, given that such high power  chargers greatly increase the equipment cost both on and off the boat, including the grid connection?

 

After all, very few boaters are on urgent business where every minute counts, and where the high cost of fast charging can be claimed on expenses... 😉

[Jimbo435]

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

Given that boats tend to travel rather more slowly and with less urgency than cars, and with longer stops for things like filling the water tank, lunch, pub and shopping stops, why is there any need to "fill up" in such a short time, given that such high power  chargers greatly increase the equipment cost both on and off the boat, including the grid connection?

 

After all, very few boaters are on urgent business where every minute counts, and where the high cost of fast charging can be claimed on expenses... 😉

Simple.  If we need to stay overnight or 4-6 hours to charge, one charge point = one boat.  But at 20-30 minutes a pop, we can charge dozens of boats with one charge point.

[Bargebuilder]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

Given that boats tend to travel rather more slowly and with less urgency than cars, and with longer stops for things like filling the water tank, lunch, pub and shopping stops, why is there any need to "fill up" in such a short time, given that such high power  chargers greatly increase the equipment cost both on and off the boat, including the grid connection?

 

After all, very few boaters are on urgent business where every minute counts, and where the high cost of fast charging can be claimed on expenses... 😉

We all speak about these upgrades to the canal network as if there is the will and finance to achieve them. There are many waterways, the Kennet & Avon for instance, where one can cruise all day without finding a suitable place to moor for the night, the banks being thick with weeds and reeds, mile after mile.

 

If a simple official mooring for overnight stops can't be achieved, then making one plus installing the hugely more difficult and expensive charging infrastructure to go on it is likely to be a problem.

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

There are many waterways, the Kennet & Avon for instance, where one can cruise all day without finding a suitable place to moor for the night, the banks being thick with weeds and reeds, mile after mile.

 

 

What a load of old tosh. 

 

Snowflake boaters who can't moor up without piling and rings seem to proliferate these days. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

Snowflake boaters who can't moor up without piling and rings seem to proliferate these days. 

 

 

Must admit I am turning into one of them, cant remember last time I used the plank, probably on the K&A

[Col_T]

I’ve heard it said that the K & A is probably the only canal where a gang-plank is a necessity.