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Hi I have a ford bsd 333


Dazo1984

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Hi I have a ford bsd 333 is there anything I can do to reduce the vibration around 600/700 rpm 

the mounts are new. 
 

iam looking at changing it to a ford fsd.

( does anyone have a flywheel housing for sale to a prm 260) 

 

the bsd is in a wheel house so it really noisy, 

 could it be tappets/ injectors?

 

I just want to smooth it out till I put the new engine in,

 

the gearbox is 3:1

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For other members, this seems to be a direct injected 3 cylinder New Holland (tractor) engine.

 

Is there any difference in vibrations between in gear and out of gear? If it is worse in gear then check the  engine alignment. It is not unknown for engines to not be sitting with equal force on the diagonally opposite mounts. If yours has not been checked to ensure all the mounts take an equal load it can cause vibrations.

 

Being a 3 cylinder it is impossible to balance out all the forces when running unless it also has internal balance shafts like the Bukh so it may be an unsolvable problem.

 

Are the new mounts identical to those supplied by the mariniser? Some engines need different mounts front to back and a mount that looks the same may not be "tuned" to the vibrations of a particular engine.

 

How are we supposed to even guess what is causing the noise when we can't hear it?  Post a video and it may help. Being direct injected it is likely to suffer greater diesel knock than an indirect injected engine so maybe it is just diesel knock. Faulty injectors are likely to make any knock worse.

 

I have  a faint recollection that the RPM figures you quote may be too low for such engines so check the manual for the manufacturer's recommended idle speed.

 

Have any members with the Beta Tug engines suffered similar problems and if so what was the cause. (Note to OP I think those engine were a John Deere design a bit similar to yours.)

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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

For other members, this seems to be a direct injected 3 cylinder New Holland (tractor) engine.

 

Is there any difference in vibrations between in gear and out of gear? If it is worse in gear then check the  engine alignment. It is not unknown for engines to not be sitting with equal force on the diagonally opposite mounts. If yours has not been checked to ensure all the mounts take an equal load it can cause vibrations.

 

Being a 3 cylinder it is impossible to balance out all the forces when running unless it also has internal balance shafts like the Bukh so it may be an unsolvable problem.

 

Are the new mounts identical to those supplied by the mariniser? Some engines need different mounts front to back and a mount that looks the same may not be "tuned" to the vibrations of a particular engine.

 

How are we supposed to even guess what is causing the noise when we can't hear it?  Post a video and it may help. Being direct injected it is likely to suffer greater diesel knock than an indirect injected engine so maybe it is just diesel knock. Faulty injectors are likely to make any knock worse.

 

I have  a faint recollection that the RPM figures you quote may be too low for such engines so check the manual for the manufacturer's recommended idle speed.

 

Have any members with the Beta Tug engines suffered similar problems and if so what was the cause. (Note to OP I think those engine were a John Deere design a bit similar to yours.)

Beta Tug engines came in 2 types

The JD3 was a John Deere engine

The BD3 was a Ford engine

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A lot of modern diesel engines are designed to never run at just above tickover. Over the years I have had Ford, John Deere and Toyota engines that had the same problem as you describe and it is much more problematic if you have a large reduction gearbox say 3:1 when the gearbox starts chattering. The problem on a canal is you need very little horsepower so you are running at this point most of the time. You probably need the engine to be running at 900rpm plus to eliminate the problem which means you are going too fast. It is possible to improve things by fitting a heavier flywheel but it never gets rid of it all together. If you want enough HP to do rivers and other cruising you are probably stuck with it. If you don't need the HP then a smaller engine running faster might do it but you would have to change the propeller. Engines with balance shafts are better ie JD 4 cylinder and Bukh. I don't think it is anything to do with mounts just a characteristic of engines.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have  a faint recollection that the RPM figures you quote may be too low for such engines so check the manual for the manufacturer's recommended idle speed.

Also, where are the rpm figures coming from? If from a tacho, has that been properly calibrated to the alternator? The needle on the rev counter may be lying, unless you know it is set up correctly.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

For other members, this seems to be a direct injected 3 cylinder New Holland (tractor) engine.

 

Is there any difference in vibrations between in gear and out of gear? If it is worse in gear then check the  engine alignment. It is not unknown for engines to not be sitting with equal force on the diagonally opposite mounts. If yours has not been checked to ensure all the mounts take an equal load it can cause vibrations.

 

Being a 3 cylinder it is impossible to balance out all the forces when running unless it also has internal balance shafts like the Bukh so it may be an unsolvable problem.

 

Are the new mounts identical to those supplied by the mariniser? Some engines need different mounts front to back and a mount that looks the same may not be "tuned" to the vibrations of a particular engine.

 

How are we supposed to even guess what is causing the noise when we can't hear it?  Post a video and it may help. Being direct injected it is likely to suffer greater diesel knock than an indirect injected engine so maybe it is just diesel knock. Faulty injectors are likely to make any knock worse.

 

I have  a faint recollection that the RPM figures you quote may be too low for such engines so check the manual for the manufacturer's recommended idle speed.

 

Have any members with the Beta Tug engines suffered similar problems and if so what was the cause. (Note to OP I think those engine were a John Deere design a bit similar to yours.)

 

Taken from the operating manual for the BD3

 

"The Tug engine operates over a speed range from 400 to 1300 rpm"

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4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

 

Taken from the operating manual for the BD3

 

"The Tug engine operates over a speed range from 400 to 1300 rpm"

 

Thanks for that, so it seems a low idle speed can be ruled out subject to Jen's observation.

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Tractors don't have flexible engine mountings so they don't have the vibration problem, the fat tyres cope with the varying loads.

My BD3 does not have flexible engine mountings and I do not think i would like to see one on flexible mountings

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Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Tractors don't have flexible engine mountings so they don't have the vibration problem, the fat tyres cope with the varying loads.

 

True, I suspect this engine may be better rigidly mounted - as long as it is correctly aligned. I suspect flexible mounts may make the vibrations at low speed worse if the natural vibration frequency of the mounts matched one of the force frequencies developed by the engine. This is why I raised the issue of the mounts.

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They were never the smoothest of engines. I've had experience of both the Lister and Beta versions. Both companies tried various things to try to improve the situation but never that successfully. Normally the best way of mounting was solidly on timber. Mount the engine to the timber, then the timber to the boat but do not use the same bolts. This was about the best way for a steel boat. Can't really comment on other materials. As you say I think the FSD is a much smoother engine.

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4 hours ago, Tonka said:

 

Taken from the operating manual for the BD3

 

"The Tug engine operates over a speed range from 400 to 1300 rpm"

 

IIRC didn't Beta modify the Ford and John Deere engines to achieve a lower than standard tickover?

 

What is the rev range for the original Ford engine?

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11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

IIRC didn't Beta modify the Ford and John Deere engines to achieve a lower than standard tickover?

 

What is the rev range for the original Ford engine?

Beta certainly did a mod on the Ford engine. They altered the injector pressures to achieve a lower idle speed. I think the John Deere engine was left as standard. Not sure of the original idle speed of the Ford engine but would expect it to be around 800 rpm.

  • Greenie 1
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10 hours ago, Steve56 said:

They were never the smoothest of engines. I've had experience of both the Lister and Beta versions. Both companies tried various things to try to improve the situation but never that successfully. Normally the best way of mounting was solidly on timber. Mount the engine to the timber, then the timber to the boat but do not use the same bolts. This was about the best way for a steel boat. Can't really comment on other materials. As you say I think the FSD is a much smoother engine.

The prop is around 24inch and it is a 3.1 prm260 

I don’t want to change the prop. But would the fsd be a suitable engine to change it to?

10 hours ago, Tonka said:

My BD3 does not have flexible engine mountings and I do not think i would like to see one on flexible mountings

 

The prop is around 24inch and it is a 3.1 prm260 

I don’t want to change the prop. But would the fsd be a suitable engine to change it to?

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

True, I suspect this engine may be better rigidly mounted - as long as it is correctly aligned. I suspect flexible mounts may make the vibrations at low speed worse if the natural vibration frequency of the mounts matched one of the force frequencies developed by the engine. This is why I raised the issue of the mounts.

 

The prop is around 24inch and it is a 3.1 prm260 

I don’t want to change the prop. But would the fsd be a suitable engine to change it to?

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40 minutes ago, Dazo1984 said:

The prop is around 24inch and it is a 3.1 prm260 

I don’t want to change the prop. But would the fsd be a suitable engine to change it to?

 

 

The prop is around 24inch and it is a 3.1 prm260 

I don’t want to change the prop. But would the fsd be a suitable engine to change it to?

 

 

The prop is around 24inch and it is a 3.1 prm260 

I don’t want to change the prop. But would the fsd be a suitable engine to change it to?

 

If you think your single reply to ll three answers fails to address what you have been told. You have not even told us what type of boat you have and your cruising grounds. One thing for sure is that it is not a common inland engine. I asked for a video so we could see the vibration and hear the noise you asked about. Without that we  can only guess.

 

I have no idea if a fsd engine would be suitable but if it is another New Holland tractor engine I would have serious reservations for the reason Tracy told you. If you want a quiet, smooth engine for an inland boat I would suggest a four cylinder indirect injected engine. If you do not have enough length to fit such an engine try to find a two or three cylinders of suitable power but with internal balance shafts & weights (harmonic balancers).

 

 

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12 hours ago, Tonka said:

Beta Tug engines came in 2 types

The JD3 was a John Deere engine

The BD3 was a Ford engine

 

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

For other members, this seems to be a direct injected 3 cylinder New Holland (tractor) engine.

 

Is there any difference in vibrations between in gear and out of gear? If it is worse in gear then check the  engine alignment. It is not unknown for engines to not be sitting with equal force on the diagonally opposite mounts. If yours has not been checked to ensure all the mounts take an equal load it can cause vibrations.

 

Being a 3 cylinder it is impossible to balance out all the forces when running unless it also has internal balance shafts like the Bukh so it may be an unsolvable problem.

 

Are the new mounts identical to those supplied by the mariniser? Some engines need different mounts front to back and a mount that looks the same may not be "tuned" to the vibrations of a particular engine.

 

How are we supposed to even guess what is causing the noise when we can't hear it?  Post a video and it may help. Being direct injected it is likely to suffer greater diesel knock than an indirect injected engine so maybe it is just diesel knock. Faulty injectors are likely to make any knock worse.

 

I have  a faint recollection that the RPM figures you quote may be too low for such engines so check the manual for the manufacturer's recommended idle speed.

 

Have any members with the Beta Tug engines suffered similar problems and if so what was the cause. (Note to OP I think those engine were a John Deere design a bit similar to yours.)

Iam not very good on forums I tried to upload a video but the size was too big,

it’s 12ft by 57ft just over 30ton widebeam. It’s going on canals,

 

I created another post. Because a wasn’t sure if I replied by correctly.

 

 

EDAAC3A5-F6FB-46B1-8D40-59AFC96F99ED.jpeg

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That looks like an old engine design and although a modern Transit may use a three cylinder, I don't know, I would expect a transit of the age of that engine it would be a four cylinder.

 

Your engines seem to be three cylinders whereas the photo of an FSD I found on the web seems to be a four cylinder so it may be too long to fit your boat. However, it should have fewer unbalanced forces than a three cylinder so may be smoother.

 

As Alan says talk to Lancing Marine re the flywheel housing/adaptor plate and then take careful measurements.

 

FWIW, the rocker cover breather than seems to have been modified to vent overboard makes me suspect that engine could be well-worn so the noise might even be worn big ends, mains, etc.

 

 

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Quite an old set up. unless I am wrong a mermaid conversion of the old ford tractor engine. Speed and power ratings very different from the transit engine. I don't think another Ford engine would be a good idea they are old as well now and you still have the high costs of marinisation. Speak to Mermaid and Beta and ask for thier suggestions. 

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We have been running a BSD 332 in Wyrd for the last thirty three years. Ford acknowledged that the engine , as do many three cylinder diesels, suffers from a 'residual nodding couple. It took me some time to minimise thisas follows:

 

1.   Set the tickover no lower than 650RPM.

2.   Fitted a heavy rubber insert twin row pulley which effectively dealt with most of the high frequency vibration.

3.   Mounted the engine on full length bearers, NOT flexy mounts.

4.   On top of the metal engine beds which are welded to the baseplate are bolted heavy hardwood bearers.

5.   Between the hardwood and the full length engine bearers (3 above) is a full length Tico pad. The mounting bolts pass through this   and are insulated with Tico tubing  and washers.

 

This has virtually removed the problem. A Lister engineer did tell me that when they were marinising this engine it would, 'walk across the yard the vibration was so bad.'

We fitted these mods thirty years ago. I have never had to tighten down the mounting bolts and the engine has had only routine maintenance in that time in spite of spending many years towing Meteor.

If you wish to see the engine running just let me know

 

 

 

 

Edited by hughc
sticky fingers
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13 minutes ago, john.k said:

Do you know how the Japs stop 4cyl truck engines from vibrating at low revs....?......they fit a throttle butterfly in the intake .....

if you turn the engine off it also stops vibrations

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10 hours ago, hughc said:

We have been running a BSD 332 in Wyrd for the last thirty three years. Ford acknowledged that the engine , as do many three cylinder diesels, suffers from a 'residual nodding couple. It took me some time to minimise thisas follows:

 

1.   Set the tickover no lower than 650RPM.

2.   Fitted a heavy rubber insert twin row pulley which effectively dealt with most of the high frequency vibration.

3.   Mounted the engine on full length bearers, NOT flexy mounts.

4.   On top of the metal engine beds which are welded to the baseplate are bolted heavy hardwood bearers.

5.   Between the hardwood and the full length engine bearers (3 above) is a full length Tico pad. The mounting bolts pass through this   and are insulated with Tico tubing  and washers.

 

This has virtually removed the problem. A Lister engineer did tell me that when they were marinising this engine it would, 'walk across the yard the vibration was so bad.'

We fitted these mods thirty years ago. I have never had to tighten down the mounting bolts and the engine has had only routine maintenance in that time in spite of spending many years towing Meteor.

If you wish to see the engine running just let me know

 

 

 

 

Hi Hugh have you got a video atal. The engine starts up perfect. Do you know anyone who has a manual and dimensions of the engine.  

It is a good engine but I need to try and do something with it 

 

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