Beta Marine 43 will not keep running

[SLC]

Please bear with me as I am a new boat owner!

We have just bought a second hand 60' narrowboat with a Beta Marine 43 engine which I gather is very reliable. Although built in 2015 the engine has less than 700 hours on the clock. It is worth noting that the boat was laid up during Covid and not used which is why it was sold as it was a wasting asset. The survey identified few problems. 

We have just done our 2 day navigation course but it was blighted by a problem with the engine which I (and others I have spoken too) do not understand. On the first day of the course we ran all afternoon with no problems. We stopped, had a break and got back OK. On the second day, an early start, the engine ran until we were in the middle of the marina when it spluttered and in spite of applying more power it would not respond and died. It would not start again although the engine did turn over.

We got to moorings and after 4 hours an experienced marina hand came over, started the engine which fired first time, he revved the thing with no problem and suggested prop was entangled. Repeated starting during the day was OK and the engine lasted for 30 minutes or so without any issues. Next day we started the engine, left it running and after 10 minutes it coughed, spluttered and gave up the fight misfiring badly. RCR came out, changed the fuel filter (the original one from 2015) noting the brown bits in the diesel and fired it up. Water eliminated as a possibility. Engine ran first time and lasted without an issue for 20 minutes before it was switched off. Engine was allowed to cool for 30 minutes, restarted and again all was well. This was repeated throughout the day and there were no problems i.e. fired first time and ran for 30 minutes or so.

Next day, an early start with a cold engine, it started again and after 5 minutes packed up. Somehow, I got it restarted and it then kept going and we ran all day doing 20 miles in around 10 hours with the odd stop for food. No problems. 

In summary, first thing in the morning engine starts first time, runs for 5 minutes, coughs and splutters and finally packs up. Later in the day, it behaves itself. What is the problem?

Salient points:

1. Engine serviced annually, last service 2020. Manual stamped accordingly.

2. Engine started regularly during winter while on sale.

3. Diesel tank kept full at all times.

4. Condition and age of batteries unknown although battery monitor suggests there is no problem.

5. Before we started our course, engine started on every visit and ran for 30 minutes or more. There were no problems.

6. Oil and water checked. No need to top up.

7. Might be a red herring, but engine dislikes early starts!

 

Any suggestions? (Fuel uplift issue? Fuel blockage unlikely as the thing runs for hours. Injector problem? Doubt it else why run so well for so long or indeed upon start up?)

 

Boat is in a boatyard for blacking. I have asked them to look at the problem but I do not wish to commit to an expensive speculative repair if there is an obvious solution.

 

Thanks in advance.

[PeterScott]

fuel ?  sludge ?  bug ?  nicked ?

[nicknorman]

It will be a fuel supply issue. You mention in passing “the brown bits in the diesel” without explaining exactly what that means. Diesel bug, which is a living organic thing, grows in diesel in the absence of light but with some water, which might even just be dissolved in the diesel. It is often brown and slimy. I think it is a type of algae. Typically develops with little turnover of diesel (ie diesel left in the tank for prolonged period).

 

The bug of course blocks, or partially blocks, the flow of diesel into the engine.

 

I think you will need to have the entire fuel delivery system from the tank to the engine checked for the bug. I expect you will find the bug! It is not particularly easy to eradicate but several organisations now offer a “fuel polishing” service whereby the tank’s contents are passed through very fine filters. Then, and having cleared out the filter and the agglomerator (if you have one), electric lift pump (if you have one), add some biocide such as marine 16 to avoid recurrence.

 

Should not be an expensive repair, just a bit messy.

Edited July 5, 2022 by nicknorman

[SLC]

Thanks for your feedback nicknorman, it is greatly appreciated. The contaminants in the fuel filter were a little like the stuff you see in instant coffee when you have not fully dissolved the granules and given the cup a stir. Light brown in colour, quite small and to me looked more like globules but they did not dissolve. It was not excessive. The RCR guy who was quite experienced was not unduly concerned and I would have thought would have recognised the signs of diesel bug. Also, was the old filter breaking down with age?

Googling diesel bug symptoms is not particularly helpful. Poor starting is not a problem - at least at first! Once running there is no misfiring or poor performance but I do understand that blockages in the fuel line can cause all sorts of funny things to happen.  Bits get everywhere and you cannot predict when failure will occur I guess.

Anyhow, I will see what comes back from the boatyard and discuss the possibility of diesel bug with them.

Again, thanks for the feedback and if anyone has had a similar experience, please let me know!

[Tracy D'arth]

How did RCR establish there was NO WATER in the fuel? Its not easy to be so sure.

 

If it has an electric pump has anyone looked at the filter in it?

 

If it is a mechanical pump there should be a gauze in it or in the feed pipe union.

 

Is the fuel the same that has sat 2 years in the tank or is it fresh?  Has a sample of fuel been drawn from the tank bottom?

 

Is the fuel tank vent clear?

 

Is the linkage on the stop solenoid correct and not falling off?

[SLC]

You are asking questions I do not know confidently the answer to Tracey! There is an agglomerator fitted and the RCR man would  have drained that and noted the contents I guess. No electric pump is fitted. Fuel tank vent is clear. Linkage to stop solenoid is clear. Fuel is probably the same as that of 2 years ago. Why would I throw good diesel away? Yes, perhaps I should have changed it and looked for contaminants but I am learning. Apparently the tank was kept full to prevent nasties like diesel bug.....

As for the fuel pump, I am not sure about that bit and need to do more delving when I get the boat back. I was not aware that there was a filter there - how many filters do you need?

[nicknorman]

13 minutes ago, SLC said:

You are asking questions I do not know confidently the answer to Tracey! There is an agglomerator fitted and the RCR man would  have drained that and noted the contents I guess. No electric pump is fitted. Fuel tank vent is clear. Linkage to stop solenoid is clear. Fuel is probably the same as that of 2 years ago. Why would I throw good diesel away? Yes, perhaps I should have changed it and looked for contaminants but I am learning. Apparently the tank was kept full to prevent nasties like diesel bug.....

As for the fuel pump, I am not sure about that bit and need to do more delving when I get the boat back. I was not aware that there was a filter there - how many filters do you need?

Just to pick upon the point  about keeping the tank full to avoid nasties, this is good practice because a partially full tank is also partially full of air, and that air contains water. When the temperature drops, water in the air condenses on the side of the tank and runs into the fuel. It’s a one way process! But all that said, keeping the tank full only helps, it does not eliminate the accumulation of water, especially as diesel these days contains bio-diesel which is more able to hold water in solution, and is more hygroscopic (water-attracting).

 

Obviously this is all rather annoying and worrying for you, but don’t worry, you will get it sorted and then it will be fine. The Beta 43 is a great engine, ours has done over 4000 hrs over 11 years and still runs like new. We have never had a hint of the bug… (FLW)

[nicknorman]

38 minutes ago, SLC said:

Thanks for your feedback nicknorman, it is greatly appreciated. The contaminants in the fuel filter were a little like the stuff you see in instant coffee when you have not fully dissolved the granules and given the cup a stir. Light brown in colour, quite small and to me looked more like globules but they did not dissolve. It was not excessive. The RCR guy who was quite experienced was not unduly concerned and I would have thought would have recognised the signs of diesel bug. Also, was the old filter breaking down with age?

Googling diesel bug symptoms is not particularly helpful. Poor starting is not a problem - at least at first! Once running there is no misfiring or poor performance but I do understand that blockages in the fuel line can cause all sorts of funny things to happen.  Bits get everywhere and you cannot predict when failure will occur I guess.

Anyhow, I will see what comes back from the boatyard and discuss the possibility of diesel bug with them.

Again, thanks for the feedback and if anyone has had a similar experience, please let me know!

Normally diesel should be clear, without any sediment or “globules”. The only thing I have ever found in our agglomerator is some iron filings left over from the build. So brown globules are abnormal and I suspect point to the bug, although you don’t mention and maybe don’t know how they felt between the fingers - slimy or hard? Possibly what was found was some broken-away fragments from the blockage proper.

 

The thing with Diesel engines is that they just require fuel, air and compression to run. Unless some animals have decided to nest in the air filter (and this would be indicated by thick black smoke from the exhaust) and bearing in mind that a loss of compression is highly unlikely to be intermittent, we come back to fuel supply as the only feasible problem.

Edited July 5, 2022 by nicknorman

[frangar]

The problem might well be related to RCR!! Try getting someone who knows what they are looking for and what they are doing to solve it. 
 

If you say the area you are in then hopefully someone can point you in the direction of a competent engineer. 

[nicknorman]

13 minutes ago, frangar said:

The problem might well be related to RCR!! Try getting someone who knows what they are looking for and what they are doing to solve it. 
 

If you say the area you are in then hopefully someone can point you in the direction of a competent engineer. 

Yes unfortunately for the OP, it is quite hard to find someone who actually knows what they are doing. I have no direct experience of RCR but I think they tend to use contractors? My only experience of such things was when our boat was new, there was an air leak in the fuel supply. Builder proposed that Beta sent an engineer out direct to us, rather than him being the middle man, which was fair enough. Except that Beta sent out a contractor who was a complete idiot. He just made it much worse. So I told Beta that I would fix it myself and please send me the part, which they did. 11 years later it is still fine and has never been touched by any other “professional”. “If you want a job doing properly, do it yourself” is never truer than with canal boats.

[PeterF]

As many have noted, leaving diesel with bio-diesel in can result in fuel bug. We had a bad case once, the fuel filters were clogged with a gloopy gel. We now use Marine 16 as has been noted above and keep the tank full.

The one thing not mentioned is that bio-diesel has a shelf life and it degrades. I have no idea what the outcome of bio-diesel degradation is, perhaps this is the issue. Could you rig up a temporary fuel supply with fresh diesel and see how the engine runs on that.

[Old Son]

I had an issue whereby my Engie would start first time, run for a while then die. I had to manually pump the fuel through to get it started again. Turned out to be an air leak on one of the fuel pipe connections. All the nuts were tight but there was a small amount of movement in the pipe connected to the fitting. Changed the pipe and all sorted!

[SLC]

Had a necessarily brief chat today across the canal against the noise of a busy road with the guy doing the blacking. He told me that the boat was fixed yesterday but the chap who did it was not in today so I could not question him in detail. Air leak in fuel lift pump. So Old Son, you may be near the mark! Engine cannot be run too often as it is out of the water at present but before the boat moves on I will have a further chat with the yard and test that it has been fixed. I will update everyone with progress but as I wrote earlier, the boat is currently running fine. It makes sense given that my symptoms were so regular and repetitive.

[LadyG]

No one has picked up on the fuel filter being the original. ,2012?

What does a real service cover, sounds like a rubber stamp job to meet manufacturer requirements.

I'd be taking out all the fuel adding additive, to plastic containers, settle. 

Suck up crud and stuff, swish round tank, remove, settle , repeat. This takes time, costs little, may not work, but then fuel polishing may not work, but will cost a lot more.

I'd think about installing a pre filter.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by LadyG

[pearley]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No one has picked up on the fuel filter being the original. ,2012?

What does a real service cover, sounds like a rubber stamp job.

It maybe that early B43 manual give 750 hours for fuel filter change. Later manual gives 500 hours. Given the small cost I change ours every year.

[Midnight]

My money is on the air leak after having solved a similar situation with a Beta 28

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/113793-beta-30-cutting-out/

but I suggest you siphon a sample from the tank to see if there's evidence of contamination. Is there another filter or water trap ( I have a water trap fixed to the hull and one on the Beta 43 engine). As Nick Norman suggested may be worth polishing the diesel and adding Marine 16 - although in my experience additives never worked for me.

[Tony Brooks]

50 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I suggest you siphon a sample from the tank to see if there's evidence of contamination.

 

Bottom of the tank, then you will know if there is much water in the fuel as well as possible bug.

[bizzard]

Engage a hefty obese person ''Feed em on lots of doughnuts first'' to stand on the fuel filler side of the boat so any water will settle in that area while you suck it out.

[SLC]

As promised, here is the answer. There was indeed an air leak and it was in the priming pump casting. This was replaced and the engine has been running as sweet as a nut ever since. Once the engine was running, the fuel flow sealed off the leak until the engine stopped and cooled down thereby opening the crack, letting air in.

I have found out a lot since taking ownership of the boat but what did surprise me is that not all domestic leisure batteries are the same. Different pillars, multiple (twin) pillars but in different relative positions to the tapered 19mm pillar and odd threaded second terminals - the positive being a different thread and therefore diameter to the negative terminal. This was not the case with the old Lucas batteries. All in all, existing wiring does not stretch to reach the new terminals and even if they did, the connector size is wrong. Anyhow all sorted.

[robtheplod]

On 06/07/2022 at 17:54, bizzard said:

Engage a hefty obese person ''Feed em on lots of doughnuts first'' to stand on the fuel filler side of the boat so any water will settle in that area while you suck it out.

I was looking for a new career... you might have found it for me!!!!!!

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, SLC said:

As promised, here is the answer. There was indeed an air leak and it was in the priming pump casting. This was replaced and the engine has been running as sweet as a nut ever since. Once the engine was running, the fuel flow sealed off the leak until the engine stopped and cooled down thereby opening the crack, letting air in.

I have found out a lot since taking ownership of the boat but what did surprise me is that not all domestic leisure batteries are the same. Different pillars, multiple (twin) pillars but in different relative positions to the tapered 19mm pillar and odd threaded second terminals - the positive being a different thread and therefore diameter to the negative terminal. This was not the case with the old Lucas batteries. All in all, existing wiring does not stretch to reach the new terminals and even if they did, the connector size is wrong. Anyhow all sorted.

 

That fault is not unknown on certain Beta engines

[enigmatic]

5 hours ago, SLC said:

As promised, here is the answer. There was indeed an air leak and it was in the priming pump casting. This was replaced and the engine has been running as sweet as a nut ever since. Once the engine was running, the fuel flow sealed off the leak until the engine stopped and cooled down thereby opening the crack, letting air in.

I have found out a lot since taking ownership of the boat but what did surprise me is that not all domestic leisure batteries are the same. Different pillars, multiple (twin) pillars but in different relative positions to the tapered 19mm pillar and odd threaded second terminals - the positive being a different thread and therefore diameter to the negative terminal. This was not the case with the old Lucas batteries. All in all, existing wiring does not stretch to reach the new terminals and even if they did, the connector size is wrong. Anyhow all sorted.

I read your post and thought "air leak" based on slightly irritating experience of the same thing myself (complete with an RCR guy spotting specks of possible diesel bug on a nearly-new filter which turned out not to be the culprit). Then I checked the date, scrolled down and found you'd solved it!

 

Air leaks tend to slowly let a bit of diesel out as well, which means they're a lot easier to diagnose with a clean engine and drip tray. Mine was right under the bit where I bled the air out to restart it though, so it wasn't until I got round to wiping it clean I found the issue...

[Machpoint005]

There's a great deal to be said for a clean engine 'one.

 

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Air leaks tend to slowly let a bit of diesel out as well, which means they're a lot easier to diagnose with a clean engine and drip tray. Mine was right under the bit where I bled the air out to restart it though, so it wasn't until I got round to wiping it clean I found the issue...

 

In some cases with fuel tanks higher than the rest of the fuel system. With tanks low down they can be difficult to find and sometimes never leak fuel. Don't disagree about the keep the area clean though.

[Tonka]

Regularly serviced and yet the fuel filter was 7 years old. Service book stamped does not mean serviced