Jump to content

Looking for concise list WIDEBEAM pinch points when in the south


Brumey

Featured Posts

Hello:

I am trying to identify all the limitations with a wide beam, 65' x 12'6". Not a dutch barge. I really wish the available maps and books would clearly point out the limit points. I understand that there are physical limits to passage in some areas. There are other limits that are not a complete Yes/No answer and more a "like it it your boat might fit but maybe you should not try it"

 

I can deal with scheduling passage through a 2-way tunnel early in the morning but I probable would not like to have trouble in shallow areas or those difficult to pass.

 

My goal is to put red lines on my map to show the limits.

 

Thanks everyone,

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Brumey said:

My goal is to put red lines on my map to show the limits.

 

Since C&RT have now put a new 'condition' into the licence T&Cs ("Your boat must fit the canal you intend to use it on") they obviously have a list of 'pinch-points'.

 

Maybe ask them where they consider that at 12'6" you should not be going, being 'physically able to use that canal' is very different to it 'being acceptable to use that canal'

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Since C&RT have now put a new 'condition' into the licence T&Cs ("Your boat must fit the canal you intend to use it on") they obviously have a list of 'pinch-points'.

 

 

 

I would suggest it is the exact opposite - "there are some pinch points but we have failed to record and update any information we may have had, therefore it is the boater's responsibility to check before making a journey".

 

visions of lots of widebeam owners visiting any likely locations by car/on foot and trying to establish the dimensions by amateur survey methods. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its just not that definite. If the level is down a little and a boat is moored in an unfortunate place then you might not be able to pass. The K&A was built as a wide canal but we have met a big widebeam there and had a huge struggle to get past (in a narrowboat and without a moored boat), plus there are an increasing number of very big widebeams moored on the canal system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Brumey said:

Hello:

I am trying to identify all the limitations with a wide beam, 65' x 12'6". Not a dutch barge. I really wish the available maps and books would clearly point out the limit points. I understand that there are physical limits to passage in some areas. There are other limits that are not a complete Yes/No answer and more a "like it it your boat might fit but maybe you should not try it"

 

I can deal with scheduling passage through a 2-way tunnel early in the morning but I probable would not like to have trouble in shallow areas or those difficult to pass.

 

My goal is to put red lines on my map to show the limits.

 

Thanks everyone,

To be honest, if you are not buying for a couple of years, then any current information, will be well out of date, when you arrive.

 

Bod.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Its just not that definite. If the level is down a little and a boat is moored in an unfortunate place then you might not be able to pass. The K&A was built as a wide canal but we have met a big widebeam there and had a huge struggle to get past (in a narrowboat and without a moored boat), plus there are an increasing number of very big widebeams moored on the canal system.

 

And the OP looks like becoming one of them. Imagine if you too had been in a 12ft 6in wide fatty instead of a narrowboat when trying to pass the "big widebeam" you mention. I guess places where a 12ft 6in wide widebeam can't pass another 12ft 6in widebeam ought to go on the list, too. 

 

Given there is actually no such list, perhaps the OP could do the boating community a favour by buying said boat and compiling one. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And the OP looks like becoming one of them. Imagine if you too had been in a 12ft 6in wide fatty instead of a narrowboat when trying to pass the "big widebeam" you mention. I guess places where a 12ft 6in wide widebeam can't pass another 12ft 6in widebeam ought to go on the list, too. 

 

Given there is actually no such list, perhaps the OP could do the boating community a favour by buying said boat and compiling one. :) 

I think the owners of widebeams never think what might happen if they met themselves coming the other way….they seem to think they operate in isolation. 

  • Greenie 2
  • Angry 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, frangar said:

I think the owners of widebeams never think what might happen if they met themselves coming the other way….they seem to think they operate in isolation. 

 

With notable exceptions, the really big fatty owners do seem to be more self-centred and have a more 'entitled' sort of attitude than yer average narrowboat owner, in my limited experience of them. 

  • Greenie 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, frangar said:

I think the owners of widebeams never think what might happen if they met themselves coming the other way….they seem to think they operate in isolation. 

But they are much less likely to meet themselves coming the other way than you are to meet them.  And slightly less likely to meet any wide boat than a narrow boat is.

 

So, buy wide and reduce your problems!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Brumey said:

Hello:

I am trying to identify all the limitations with a wide beam, 65' x 12'6". Not a dutch barge. I really wish the available maps and books would clearly point out the limit points. I understand that there are physical limits to passage in some areas. There are other limits that are not a complete Yes/No answer and more a "like it it your boat might fit but maybe you should not try it"

 

I can deal with scheduling passage through a 2-way tunnel early in the morning but I probable would not like to have trouble in shallow areas or those difficult to pass.

 

My goal is to put red lines on my map to show the limits.

 

Thanks everyone,

The available maps and guides will show you that all the locks on the connected southern wide waterways will take boats of length 65 ft and/or of width 12 ft 6 ins. A couple of bridges on the GU towards Birmingham may be on the width limit, but otherwise you will encounter few if any hard physical limits.

But that's not really the point. You have said nothing about the draft, headroom or cross sectional profile above and below the waterline, all of which will affect your ability to fit within the existing structures and channel. Bridge profiles are not generally documented, and channel profiles change over time.  There are many lengths on these waterways where there is not always room for two narrow beam boats to pass, let alone a narrow beam and a wide beam (and even less so two widebeams), so expecting to find a cruising range on the canals where your wide boat can always pass other craft is pie in the sky. For that you should stick to the Thames up to about Oxford.

 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

But they are much less likely to meet themselves coming the other way than you are to meet them.  And slightly less likely to meet any wide boat than a narrow boat is.

 

So, buy wide and reduce your problems!

 

 

Or ban the hideous things on all waterways such as the K & A and GU and let’s go back to just having boats that can pass easily rather than those who think they have some god given right to damage the  infrastructure. 

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, frangar said:

Or ban the hideous things on all waterways such as the K & A and GU and let’s go back to just having boats that can pass easily rather than those who think they have some god given right to damage the  infrastructure. 

But how do you draw the line between the hideous brick-shaped boxes now being churned out in some numbers, and boats actually built for the wide canals, such as the ex GU Progress, now being rebuilt on the Troy Cut, or the attractive smaller Dutch Barges or 1960s/70s ship's lifeboat conversions (not the orange oilrig things) which moor on the lower GU without causing any problems at all?

Edited by David Mack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But how do you draw the line between the hideous brick-shaped boxes now being churned out in some numbers, and boats actually built for the wide canals, such as the ex GU Progress, now being rebuilt on the Troy Cut, or the attractive smaller Dutch Barges or 1960s/70s ship's lifeboat conversions (not the orange oilrig things) which moor on the lower GU without causing any problems at all?

How about a judging panel?? Say 12 people who have to agree with a majority before a licence is issued…they would of course have to be boaters of taste….

  • Happy 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the concise answer for a boat that size is south of Berkhamsted, East of Newbury and avoid the River Stort - you'll be fine on the Thames and the Lee. 

Cruising north of Berkhamsted or West of Newbury is not likely to be a relaxing experience, on the Stort you will be so close to the maximum gauge you might jam in a lock

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

But how do you draw the line between the hideous brick-shaped boxes now being churned out in some numbers, and boats actually built for the wide canals, such as the ex GU Progress, now being rebuilt on the Troy Cut, or the attractive smaller Dutch Barges or 1960s/70s ship's lifeboat conversions (not the orange oilrig things) which moor on the lower GU without causing any problems at all?

 

Exactly - One of the joys (to me) of the K&A is the Dutch Barges, here is an example at Limpley Stoke (Along with one of those oil rig life boats) - moves along with hardly a ripple and the owner handles her well. 

282062955_5546282305402527_8546729421798039825_n.jpg

281600420_5546281702069254_8009995504481262365_n.jpg

Edited by magpie patrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the two great replies. I'll reach out to the CRT, your correct, they should know. I did not know about the new T&C having this in it. Just so you know, I am still in the planning stages on what to buy, heavily leaning towards a widebeam in the south, continuous cruising for 6 months a year. It's a big decision and costly so I want to get it right.

 

I'll also look at canalplan today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate to say this but on technical boating matters CRT are not the best people to talk to. If you want a semi static floating home then a widebeam is good, but if you plan to spend six months continuous cruising, especially in the South, then a narrowboat is the obvious choice, maybe a nice big 70 footer if you feel that you need a lot of space.

A narrowboat will give you access to the Thames and K&A, (and the K&A is much easier in a narrowboat), but will also let you cruise up the South Oxford canal and venture into the midlands if you wish. The midlands has some of the best canals and they are narrow.

  • Greenie 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Brumey said:

Thanks for the two great replies. I'll reach out to the CRT, your correct, they should know. I did not know about the new T&C having this in it. Just so you know, I am still in the planning stages on what to buy, heavily leaning towards a widebeam in the south, continuous cruising for 6 months a year. It's a big decision and costly so I want to get it right.

 

I'll also look at canalplan today.

Getting it right in my opinion is not buying such a monster but getting a proper boat instead. Why would you want to spend a fortune, and make yourself unpopular. They are unpopular with other users of these waterways for a reason.

 

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All CRT are likely to do is refer you to their published maximum craft dimensions. These are derived from the dimensions to which they are required by law to maintain the waterways.

 

However it’s never been entirely clear as to whether the width requirements apply at water level, to the bottom of the published depth and to the top of the published air draft. Hence there are arched bridges that will accommodate a 12’ 6” at the water line but may struggle 3’ above and below the water and that depends upon the shape of your boat.

 

Logically the dimensions only serve their purpose if applied in combination but it would be a leap of faith to assume that is always the case. CRT’s own diagram for the dimensions of Harecastle tunnel demonstrates they don’t have a full and natural grasp of this issue.

 

The reason for the “might fit” ambiguity is that the dimensions describe a cuboid and no boat is a cuboid. This generally means boats that are longer than published but have pointy and raked bows and circular or elliptical sterns, or are narrower than the published maximum, can to some degree fit in locks that are theoretically too small.

 

There are definitely a couple of pinch points at Itchington for 12’ 6” boats trying to access Birmingham via the Grand Union but it will depend upon the shape of the boat and the accuracy of it’s notional dimensions.

Edited by Captain Pegg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

I think the concise answer for a boat that size is south of Berkhamsted, East of Newbury and avoid the River Stort - you'll be fine on the Thames and the Lee. 

Cruising north of Berkhamsted or West of Newbury is not likely to be a relaxing experience, on the Stort you will be so close to the maximum gauge you might jam in a lock

 

Exactly - One of the joys (to me) of the K&A is the Dutch Barges, here is an example at Limpley Stoke (Along with one of those oil rig life boats) - moves along with hardly a ripple and the owner handles her well. 

282062955_5546282305402527_8546729421798039825_n.jpg

281600420_5546281702069254_8009995504481262365_n.jpg

 

wouldn't it be nice if all so-called "dutch barges" had a beautiful shape like that?   A lovely boat, for sure.  Anyone know if it is a new build or a historic barge?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Between 2002 and 2012 we owned a 61'x11'6" barge based in Berkhamsted, in those 10 years we never went west of Newbury on the K&A nor north of Stoke Bruerne on the GU. We did The Rivers Wey, Lea and Stort but spent most of our time on the Thames or out on the East Coast.

The waterways had few wide beams then so few obstructions. I would not want to be hauling something that size around the canals now. 2012 we sold it and went back to a narrow boat.

Think very carefully before committing to something of that size as you will end up not moving it and wishing you could.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

wouldn't it be nice if all so-called "dutch barges" had a beautiful shape like that?   A lovely boat, for sure.  Anyone know if it is a new build or a historic barge?

Historic - so is the engine in it. 

I'd just seen it pass a new electric narrow boat - now I'm no Luddite, but I know which one I preferred! :D 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/07/2022 at 08:37, dmr said:

Its just not that definite. If the level is down a little and a boat is moored in an unfortunate place then you might not be able to pass. The K&A was built as a wide canal but we have met a big widebeam there and had a huge struggle to get past (in a narrowboat and without a moored boat), plus there are an increasing number of very big widebeams moored on the canal system.

 

That is a bit of a misnomer. The K&A is more like a narrow canal with wide locks, built to accomodate the Honey Street barges, which had Barrel shaped hulls. The canal profile is also barrel shaped in many places, which restricts the operational width for flat sided hulls. When I moored near Dundas, I witnessed quite a few widebeams run hard aground whilst still some six feet away from the offside bank.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.