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Getting my head around diesel heaters


W+T

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Ok here is an odd one to me, and would like if somebody can explain it to me, i am speaking to a BSS examiner about this at the and he is not explaining, but then they are like dodgy MOT inspectors anyway.

I want to fit the heater unit in the main cabin in its own sealed locker, have a 20l tank next to the main petrol fuel tank under rear deck and all fittings will be decent ones, not the naff they come with. Which can be used on an interim time whilst the BSS is updated on these units.

These units are sealed, the same as the Propex HS200, and the Propex can be in the cabin in an unsealed locker/cabinet.

Both the LPG and Diesel heaters draw cold air in and blow out warm heated are into the main cabin. Both units draw in and exhaust combustion gasses into and out the boat.

But the diesel heaters are not allowed into the main cabin at all, even in a sealed locker.


What am i missing but for the BSS a bit crap with things.

C Faffer image.gif.52c338c12502843a27ba04c39cd3f866.gif

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1 hour ago, W+T said:

Ok here is an odd one to me, and would like if somebody can explain it to me, i am speaking to a BSS examiner about this at the and he is not explaining, but then they are like dodgy MOT inspectors anyway.image.gif.52c338c12502843a27ba04c39cd3f866.gif

 

Really? That's not my experience of BSS examiners. I suggest you find a different inspector. 

1 hour ago, W+T said:


But the diesel heaters are not allowed into the main cabin at all, even in a sealed locker.
image.gif.52c338c12502843a27ba04c39cd3f866.gif

 

Do you have the particular clauses in the BSS Essential Guide which reference this so we can see what you mean? 

 

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Really? That's not my experience of BSS examiners. I suggest you find a different inspector. 

 

Do you have the particular clauses in the BSS Essential Guide which reference this so we can see what you mean? 

 

 

Thats is just i cant find it anywhere stating they can not be used in the cabin. 

 

Although a good few examiners say they can not be used in the cabin and only in engine bays or sealed locker on deck. 

 

And to put an already to this, the examiner i am emailing about tis has now stated 

 

`Not all Chinese heaters take air from the outside. Some draw from the space the occupy. This is the problem - there are lots of variants available and some can meet to BSS requirements and some won’t. `

 

which is as far as i am aware again, they all work in the same way and are room sealed.  I have yet to see one of these heater draw air from te locker it is in. 

 

On examiners, not all but they are out there, i have worked on all kinds of customers boats for years and i have seen some scary stuff that has passed a BSS

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My diesel heater is in the storage space  under the floor of the main saloon area  (GRP Cruiser).

The combustion air is draw from the storage space in which the heater is located.

The fresh air , which is to be drawn in by the heater fan is drawn  via a duct from the cockpit area .

 

The boat has been based on inland waters since new in 2003 so has passed several BSS examinations . I expect the heater was fitted from new.  But for the avoidance of doubt it has passed two BSS exams in my ownership.

 

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2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

My diesel heater is in the storage space  under the floor of the main saloon area  (GRP Cruiser).

The combustion air is draw from the storage space in which the heater is located.

The fresh air , which is to be drawn in by the heater fan is drawn  via a duct from the cockpit area .

 

The boat has been based on inland waters since new in 2003 so has passed several BSS examinations . I expect the heater was fitted from new.  But for the avoidance of doubt it has passed two BSS exams in my ownership.

 

 

 

That should fail as it is not room sealed if it draws air from the cabin. combustion and exhaust should both come and go from the outside. Not that i am saying dont use it, just goes to show that some examiners are wrong. all appliances should be room sealed now.

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7 minutes ago, W+T said:

 

Thats is just i cant find it anywhere stating they can not be used in the cabin. 

 

Although a good few examiners say they can not be used in the cabin and only in engine bays or sealed locker on deck. 

 

And to put an already to this, the examiner i am emailing about tis has now stated 

 

`Not all Chinese heaters take air from the outside. Some draw from the space the occupy. This is the problem - there are lots of variants available and some can meet to BSS requirements and some won’t. `

 

which is as far as i am aware again, they all work in the same way and are room sealed.  I have yet to see one of these heater draw air from te locker it is in. 

 

On examiners, not all but they are out there, i have worked on all kinds of customers boats for years and i have seen some scary stuff that has passed a BSS

I fitted a Chinese diesel heater to my Norman 20.

It can be fitted anywhere on the boat providing the exhaust goes outside, which on a grp boat means a proper stainless hull outlet with insulating discs.They are about £50.I have seen some with the combustion air inlet drawing from inside the boat, but to make it room sealed, it should draw it's combustion air from another (cheaper) hull fitting.

These heaters come with plastic fuel pipes and to keep your BSC man happy they need to be changed to metal.Car brake pipe if I remember 3/16 ID.You can use compression or flared joints, but I found it easier to join fuel filter to fuel tap to heater with rubber tube and pipe clips, BUT in needs to be ISO 7840 fire resistant tubing.

The fuel tank needs to be placed so it can vent overboard and also drain any refueling spillages overboard.

Mine on the startup cycle used 12 amps for about five minutes and when settled at a suitable temperature, about one amp.They are a bit sensitive to any low voltage on startup, so you need to ensure your connecting wire will not have too much voltage drop.My heater's handbook said it worked from 11.4V to 12.6V. There is a formula for working out the thickness of wire required for the distance, but I have forgotten it (along with other stuff)

It's also a good idea to fit an isolating switch in the cicuit so that the heater can be used independantly of the master switch, and also if it has an LED screen to save having it illuminated when not in use.

It's a real faff fitting it, mine I fitted in the cupboard under the sink and if I clonked my head once I must have done it a hundred times!

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5 minutes ago, W+T said:

 

 

That should fail as it is not room sealed if it draws air from the cabin. combustion and exhaust should both come and go from the outside. Not that i am saying dont use it, just goes to show that some examiners are wrong. all appliances should be room sealed now.

Okay - what about the gas oven and hob? These take air from the saloon in which they are located but there are  air vents to the exterior and windows that can open,

There is no exhaust to the exterior from the oven or hob - same as any gas oven or hob in house .

 

 

 

 

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@Mad Harold

 

this s from the BSSC

 

So they say you can use most the rubbish the units come with, for now. Best to fit them wit the proper marine kits though from the start.

 

Coincidentally, this very subject was a main topic of conversa;on at a BSS Technical Commi?ee mee;ng last Tuesday. The BSS is aware that products like this are currently flooding the market and has agreed to work with other interested par;es such as Trading Standards and Bri;sh Marine to review their acceptability. However, as an interim posi;on, BSSTC has provisionally agreed the following: 1. Examiners may accept unmarked plas;c fuel tanks (wherever located) connected to diesel heaters and stoves provided they have an capacity of no more then 10lt and appear to be of proprietary manufacture (e.g. they look like they were manufactured for use with such appliances) 2. Examiners may accept unmarked plas;c/nylon fuel lines (including the very short sec;ons of hose), connec;ons, plas;c filters, etc (wherever located) provided they appear to be of proprietary manufacture (e.g. they look like they were manufactured for use with such appliances) In addi;on: 3. The tanks and the fuel lines must be in good condi;on with no signs of damage or deteriora;on, missing components, or leaking fuel. If such issues are found then record a fail at the appropriate Check 4. The tank must be securely installed. If it’s not then record a fail at 2.5.1. 5. The fuel lines must be adequately secured so that they are not pulling on their connec;ons. If they are not adequately secured then record a fail at 2.10.3. 6. All fuel line connec;ons must be as specified at Checks 2.11.1 and 2.11.2, other than pipes are not required to have formed ends where connected to hose. 7. All connec;ons must be securely installed (including filters, pumps etc), and if not a fail can be recorded at 2.11.3. However, it is accepted that there may be some movement where such connec;ons/components are connected to hose or plas;c/ nylon lines. Also, the Examiner must inform the boat owner, preferably in wri;ng, that the current acceptance of unmarked diesel tanks of up to 10lt capacity and the acceptance of unmarked, unspecified material, fuel lines is an interim posi;on and that such materials may not comply with BSS Requirements in the future. Over the next few weeks all Examiners will be contacted by the BSS regarding the above, but in the mean;me you may Examine the boats in ques;on using the above approach.

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Okay - what about the gas oven and hob? These take air from the saloon in which they are located but there are  air vents to the exterior and windows that can open,

There is no exhaust to the exterior from the oven or hob - same as any gas oven or hob in house .

 

 

 

 

 

not my rules, its the BSS

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7 minutes ago, W+T said:

 

not my rules, its the BSS

So a gas oven or hob in a boat is not permitted?

 

Here is a picture of  my diesel heater  which has been  accepted by BSS - the last examination being in 2020.

image.png.2af5d71e7ea939f6410c77e7635b9106.png

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11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

So a gas oven or hob in a boat is not permitted?

 

Here is a picture of  my diesel heater  which has been  accepted by BSS - the last examination being in 2020.

image.png.2af5d71e7ea939f6410c77e7635b9106.png

 

Yes cookers and hobs are permitted, imagine if there were not ha ha

 

Nice work fitting the heater :) 

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18 minutes ago, W+T said:

 

Yes cookers and hobs are permitted, imagine if there were not ha ha

Okay 

Its just you said ''all appliances should  be room sealed now''

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12 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Okay 

Its just you said ''all appliances should  be room sealed now''

All but cookers and hobs, fridges, heaters etc to be room sealed. sorry confused you. 

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1 hour ago, W+T said:

@Mad Harold

 

this s from the BSSC

 

So they say you can use most the rubbish the units come with, for now. Best to fit them wit the proper marine kits though from the start.

 

Coincidentally, this very subject was a main topic of conversa;on at a BSS Technical Commi?ee mee;ng last Tuesday. The BSS is aware that products like this are currently flooding the market and has agreed to work with other interested par;es such as Trading Standards and Bri;sh Marine to review their acceptability. However, as an interim posi;on, BSSTC has provisionally agreed the following: 1. Examiners may accept unmarked plas;c fuel tanks (wherever located) connected to diesel heaters and stoves provided they have an capacity of no more then 10lt and appear to be of proprietary manufacture (e.g. they look like they were manufactured for use with such appliances) 2. Examiners may accept unmarked plas;c/nylon fuel lines (including the very short sec;ons of hose), connec;ons, plas;c filters, etc (wherever located) provided they appear to be of proprietary manufacture (e.g. they look like they were manufactured for use with such appliances) In addi;on: 3. The tanks and the fuel lines must be in good condi;on with no signs of damage or deteriora;on, missing components, or leaking fuel. If such issues are found then record a fail at the appropriate Check 4. The tank must be securely installed. If it’s not then record a fail at 2.5.1. 5. The fuel lines must be adequately secured so that they are not pulling on their connec;ons. If they are not adequately secured then record a fail at 2.10.3. 6. All fuel line connec;ons must be as specified at Checks 2.11.1 and 2.11.2, other than pipes are not required to have formed ends where connected to hose. 7. All connec;ons must be securely installed (including filters, pumps etc), and if not a fail can be recorded at 2.11.3. However, it is accepted that there may be some movement where such connec;ons/components are connected to hose or plas;c/ nylon lines. Also, the Examiner must inform the boat owner, preferably in wri;ng, that the current acceptance of unmarked diesel tanks of up to 10lt capacity and the acceptance of unmarked, unspecified material, fuel lines is an interim posi;on and that such materials may not comply with BSS Requirements in the future. Over the next few weeks all Examiners will be contacted by the BSS regarding the above, but in the mean;me you may Examine the boats in ques;on using the above approach.

 

not my rules, its the BSS

I wasn't aware of this latest thinking on fitting diesel heaters.

I based my installation on reading the regs for engine fuel installations, and was not aware or different rules for heaters or small fuel tanks. I mounted my fuel tank outside on the transom.

If I was fitting a heater now having read this latest thinking on installation, I suppose I could have made it easier for myself, but I think I would install it in the same way again, as I posted as I think what I did was best practice.

 

The heater was used for two years and the boat now has a new owner, and it hasn't caught fire.  (yet!)0

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10 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

I wasn't aware of this latest thinking on fitting diesel heaters.

I based my installation on reading the regs for engine fuel installations, and was not aware or different rules for heaters or small fuel tanks. I mounted my fuel tank outside on the transom.

If I was fitting a heater now having read this latest thinking on installation, I suppose I could have made it easier for myself, but I think I would install it in the same way again, as I posted as I think what I did was best practice.

 

The heater was used for two years and the boat now has a new owner, and it hasn't caught fire.  (yet!)0

 

All  it`s for is better safety, i agree that, the items that come with the heaters are rubbish towards better makes for marine use and like Planner Erber`s etc provide, 

 

I cant see the new regs changing too soon but will be according to the info i got. They could be like thye were with old LPG cookers and if it was fitted from suc a date ten they still will pass, but if fitted after such a date they need to be fitted with the better fittings and in correct place etc. 

 

All i know now and what i was after is i can fit one in the cabin in a sealed locker and will pass the BSS. I will be fitting it wit marine fittings and parts though. Not te ceap rubbish the heaters come with.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, W+T said:

Nice work fitting the heater :) 

It came with the boat and was probably factory fitted from new or could have been fitted by the  dealer.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It came with the boat and was probably factory fitted from new or could have been fitted by the  dealer.

 

 

 

 

I will be surprised they fitted a cheapo chinese thing if from factory/new as they usually fit a better make.  

 

EDIT 

sorry just zoomed in to see its an Airtronic.

Edited by W+T
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7 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Isn't it a heater you're fitting Wayne?

 

The concession for non room sealed "heaters" refers only to the instanaeous water heaters :

 

I think it is maybe this section that is being referenced

 

 

Appliances which are not room-sealed but which were installed before 3 January 2000 can continue to be used, as long as they are serviceable and in good condition.

Replacement and additional new appliances to the boat must be of the roomsealed type, except for cooking appliances and, in the absence of a direct replacement, instantaneous water heaters.

To help ensure continued safe operation of an appliance any modifications or additions to an existing appliance must be performed in accordance with the manufacturer's guidelines. Defective or inappropriate components could lead to a gas leak or inefficient combustion and the production of noxious gases.

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13 hours ago, W+T said:

 

I will be surprised they fitted a cheapo chinese thing if from factory/new as they usually fit a better make.  

 

EDIT 

sorry just zoomed in to see its an Airtronic.

The principal is the same regardless of the make.

I see the price attraction of the chinese  heaters. A couple of years ago the new ECU alone for my Eberspacher was about  £180.

 

 

 

 

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I wonder why the OP is discussing this with BSS examiners rather than direct with the BSS office. If the heater really is room sealed I don't recall anything in the BSS that prohibits its fitment in the accommodation area. Let alone demand a room sealed locker. If there was such a requirement then many hundreds of boats with Elllis, Alde, etc. gas boilers would not be allowed. With the games it seems many BSS examiners seem to play they would be the last people I would be asking. Email or write to the BSS office so you get a reply in writing to wave at any future BSS examiner if he disagrees with the office.

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9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I wonder why the OP is discussing this with BSS examiners rather than direct with the BSS office. If the heater really is room sealed I don't recall anything in the BSS that prohibits its fitment in the accommodation area. Let alone demand a room sealed locker. If there was such a requirement then many hundreds of boats with Elllis, Alde, etc. gas boilers would not be allowed. With the games it seems many BSS examiners seem to play they would be the last people I would be asking. Email or write to the BSS office so you get a reply in writing to wave at any future BSS examiner if he disagrees with the office.

Good idea, and to tell the truth i never even thought to email the BSS office. 

 

Tis came about as i dont really like the cheap chinese stuff. Thing is we cant really get away from it unless we buy Planner etc. And after researching for a long time now on te cheapo heaters and as i have one in my workshop and its not much use in there i thought i would stick it int he boat.  Research found alll sort of ideas/thoughts/comments on how and where they can and cant be fitted. 

 

So i contacted the BSS examiner i last used and he said they cant be in the main cabin at all, AS he says they are not room sealed, which they are. Ten he sent me a link to the BSSC sent to all BSS examiners, In the end i got to the point in telling him that these heaters are room sealed. which then he said some are and some are not. Yet have i to see one that is not  room sealed. 

 

anyway, all sorted now. 

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32 minutes ago, W+T said:

Good idea, and to tell the truth i never even thought to email the BSS office. 

 

Tis came about as i dont really like the cheap chinese stuff. Thing is we cant really get away from it unless we buy Planner etc. And after researching for a long time now on te cheapo heaters and as i have one in my workshop and its not much use in there i thought i would stick it int he boat.  Research found alll sort of ideas/thoughts/comments on how and where they can and cant be fitted. 

 

So i contacted the BSS examiner i last used and he said they cant be in the main cabin at all, AS he says they are not room sealed, which they are. Ten he sent me a link to the BSSC sent to all BSS examiners, In the end i got to the point in telling him that these heaters are room sealed. which then he said some are and some are not. Yet have i to see one that is not  room sealed. 

 

anyway, all sorted now. 

 

I think that you are correct, my view is it is just another example of a BSS examiner getting it wrong and making things up rather than fess up.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that you are correct, my view is it is just another example of a BSS examiner getting it wrong and making things up rather than fess up.

 

Most definately, and to go with i wont be using him again. To many inspectors like this though and dont bother about serious wrong doings on boats. Aslong as i know we are safe i am happy, and get a BSC of course ha ha. 

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On 03/07/2022 at 17:06, W+T said:

 

 

That should fail as it is not room sealed if it draws air from the cabin. combustion and exhaust should both come and go from the outside. Not that i am saying dont use it, just goes to show that some examiners are wrong. all appliances should be room sealed now.

Our diesel heater was fitted I the engine bay. The exhaust was of course to outside but it drew air in from the cockpit area.

 

This was how it was installed from factory and it passed all of its boat safety tests without question. 3 in our ownership with 3 different examiners. 

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