How to find bardge maker

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Jason rigby said:

 

 

Man of few words ?

[Jason rigby]

Yep

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Why ?

What are you thinking 'placed on the market' means ?

 

"Placed on the market" does not mean "offered for sale"

 

If, for whatever reason, a watercraft built for own use is intended to be placed on the Union market, whether completed or partly completed, within the 5 year period, then conformity assessment by a person or persons fulfilling the role of manufacturer would be required in accordance with the provisions of Article 19(4) of the Directive by post-construction assessment, according Article 23 of the Directive. These persons would take the responsibility for the equivalent conformity of the design, construction and environmental performance of the watercraft, and any modification to it necessary to achieve this equivalent conformity. The assessment of the equivalent conformity with essential requirements of the Directive requires the involvement of a notified body (see comments to Annex V of the Directive).

 

As I suggested above, it is commonly taken, as being when the boat is 'first used' (or sometimes 'completed' however the official definition is :

 

 

The Regulations place the responsibility of ensuring the craft meets all the requirements of the RCD upon the person who first places the craft on the EEA market. First placing on the market is a legal term that has several meanings:

It usually happens when the completed craft is sold by the manufacturer to the person who is going to use it or a dealer for further distribution.
It also happens when the completed craft is used for the first time, as in the case of a Home build or added to the manufacturer’s charter fleet.
With imported boats it happens when it clears customs because it is then available for use or distribution.
This is the point when the completed craft must comply with all the requirements of the RCD.
The requirements apply equally to businesses and private individuals.

 

 

What are you you quoting in the above, please?  I am looking at the Regulations and  Ss4(g)  of The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/4/made provides an exemption for   

 

watercraft built for own use, provided that such watercraft are not subsequently placed on the EU market for a period of five years beginning with the date on which the watercraft was put into service

 

The interpretation section says

 

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

 

and, less relevantly

 

“placing on the market” means the first making available of a product on the EU market, and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

 

So, to my way of reading, the clock starts with first use/service and you shouldn't (if you want to use the exemption) place the product on the market within five years.  In your way of thinking, you shouldn't place the boat on the market within five years of placing the boat on the market.  

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tacet said:

So, to my way of reading, the clock starts with first use/service and you shouldn't (if you want to use the exemption) place the product on the market within five years.  In your way of thinking, you shouldn't place the boat on the market within five years of placing the boat on the market.  

 

I don't understand what you mean by the part in Red.

 

 

I think you are misunderstanding, or not reading the extracts I have quoted :

 

I have repeatedly said that in effect 'placing on the market' is the 1st use, and that you cannot sell the boat within 5 years, UNLESS it is RCD / RCR compliant and certified.

 

If you want to look further into the definitions and requirements (several pages explaining about 'putting on the market') have a read of the 2018 version of the guidelines.

[Paul C]

No, “placing on the market” means advertising it for sale.

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Paul C said:

No, “placing on the market” means advertising it for sale.

 

No it does not - I have quoted directly from the RCD as to what 'placing on the market' means.

Do not confuse the issue.

[Paul C]

Yes it does……

[magnetman]

 

Other than for home built or company owned craft there is the fact that the boat was originally sold to the first owner by whoever constructed it. 

 

This could be viewed as the first time it was put on the market because without someone paying for the boat it would not have existed but remained as a load of steel plates which could be used to make something else. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Yes it does……

Would you show me where in the legislation it defines "placing on the market" as advertising it for sale.

 

I have posted extracts from the legislation showing where I am getting my definition from, will you do the same ?

 

First placing on the market is a legal term that has several meanings:

It usually happens when the completed craft is sold by the manufacturer to the person who is going to use it or a dealer for further distribution.
It also happens when the completed craft is used for the first time, as in the case of a Home build or added to the manufacturer’s charter fleet.

 

Tacets quote from the 2017 Regs says :

 

 

The interpretation section says

 

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

[Tacet]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Would you show me where in the legislation it defines "placing on the market" as advertising it for sale.

 

I have posted extracts from the legislation showing where I am getting my definition from, will you do the same ?

 

First placing on the market is a legal term that has several meanings:

It usually happens when the completed craft is sold by the manufacturer to the person who is going to use it or a dealer for further distribution.
It also happens when the completed craft is used for the first time, as in the case of a Home build or added to the manufacturer’s charter fleet.

 

Tacets quote from the 2017 Regs says :

 

 

The interpretation section says

 

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

Tacet also said (his reading of the Regulations) is that the five year exemption is measured from on "putting into service" and not "placing on the market"

 

FWIW the same regulations define “placing on the market” as the first making available of a product on the EU market with nothing about first use.  So its sounds sales-orientated to me.

 

Which legislation do you quote from, Alan?  It reads more like an explanatory leaflet from a trade body or suchlike.

 

 

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

 

 

The whole thing doesn't apply, surely? 

 

We are no longer in the EU, so placing an English canal boat 'on the market' in the UK does not contravene the regulations which all appear to prattle on about "the EU market".

 

At last, a benefit of Brexit!

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

The whole thing doesn't apply, surely? 

 

We are no longer in the EU, so placing an English canal boat 'on the market' in the UK does not contravene the regulations which all appear to prattle on about "the EU market".

 

At last, a benefit of Brexit!

 

 

You forget that the RCR is the applicable regulation is the UK, and is simply the RCD with a new cover on it.

 

4 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Which legislation do you quote from, Alan? 

 

 

As I already explained - the latest 2018 RCD/RCR Guidelines (which accompany the RCD / RCR legislation)

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You forget that the RCR is the applicable regulation is the UK, and is simply the RCD with a new cover on it.

 

Yes, it applies in the UK and the regulation text that applies, states must not place on the EU market. Not the UK market. 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes, it applies in the UK and the regulation text that applies, states must not place on the EU market. Not the UK market. 

 

Have you read Part 2 Section 6 and  7(1)

 

Which says  :

 

Essential requirements

6.  A person may only make a product available on the market or put it into service if that product—

(a)complies with the requirements in Schedule 1; and

(b)does not endanger the health and safety of persons, property or the environment when correctly maintained and used in accordance with its intended purpose.

 

 

7(1)Nothing in these Regulations prevents a person making available in the United Kingdom or putting into service in the United Kingdom—

(a) any watercraft in conformity with Part 2;

 

 

Which I'm reading as meaning a 'boat' can only be 'made available' if it complies with the requirements of the RCR

 

Schedule 1 is basically the outline of requirements of the RCR / RCR.

It is far too big to cut & paste so I'll let you read it for yourself.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tacet]

29 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

 

Which legislation do you quote from, Alan?  It reads more like an explanatory leaflet from a trade body or suchlike.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

As I already explained - the latest 2018 RCD/RCR Guidelines (which accompany the RCD / RCR legislation)

Sorry, it's just that I couldn't identify find the legislation (or even the official guidelines)  you have quoted  Perhaps EU originating stuff is not held in the National Archive.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

Sorry, it's just that I couldn't identify find the legislation (or even the official guidelines)  you have quoted  Perhaps EU originating stuff is not held in the National Archive.

 

 

 

As far as I am aware the 2018 Guidelines were issued by the UK Government after the Brexit vote, but before we officially left in 2020.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I already explained - the latest 2018 RCD/RCR Guidelines (which accompany the RCD / RCR legislation)

Guidelines are not the legislation. They are explanatory text to give context to the legal requirements, and may also include examples of how to comply with the Regulations, but such examples are not the only way to comply with the Regs. In the event of a conflict between the information in the Guidelines and the text of the Legislation, then the Legislation is what applies.

[Arthur Marshall]

As it's almost certainly going to take more than five years to get the boat fitted out and have a bit of fun with it, is all this legislation even relevant?

My boat dates from the sixties, probably,  and I completely refitted it in the late nineties. Nobody's arrested me yet and I assume I can sell the thing some day without being lined up and shot.

I am unconvinced the average tub owner/seller/buyer  knows or cares anything about this RCD stuff.

[Jason rigby]

7 hours ago, Tacet said:

 

 

What are you you quoting in the above, please?  I am looking at the Regulations and  Ss4(g)  of The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/4/made provides an exemption for   

 

watercraft built for own use, provided that such watercraft are not subsequently placed on the EU market for a period of five years beginning with the date on which the watercraft was put into service

 

The interpretation section says

 

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

 

and, less relevantly

 

“placing on the market” means the first making available of a product on the EU market, and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

 

So, to my way of reading, the clock starts with first use/service and you shouldn't (if you want to use the exemption) place the product on the market within five years.  In your way of thinking, you shouldn't place the boat on the market within five years of placing the boat on the market.  

 

 

 

For sale lol

[Murflynn]

16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You forget that the RCR is the applicable regulation is the UK, and is simply the RCD with a new cover on it.

 

 

 

As I already explained - the latest 2018 RCD/RCR Guidelines (which accompany the RCD / RCR legislation)

 

It had never occurred to me that River & Canal Rescue were involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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