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How to find bardge maker


Jason rigby

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6 minutes ago, Jason rigby said:

It was in water 6yr ago aprox  in process of track engine number 

 

It still requires an Annex111a or its own RCD/RCR certificate to be fully legal. Ask yourself why does it seem not to have either.

 

In fact, if you bought this boat, you may already have conspired with the vendor to commit a criminal act (yes RCD/RCR matters are criminal and not civil). It is exceptionally unlikely that anyone is interested in that but down the line you could easily be the one committing the criminal act.

 

I am ducking out of this conversation now I have warned you about the pitfalls in completing this boat without the necessary documentation.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Hang on, I think (but may be mistaken) that a few may have the wrong end of the stick here. I don't think it's a modern hull build, probably 70s or 80s and had a wooden cabin on it, which has evaporated/dissolved/been enthusiastically stripped off then the project abandoned, thus it's out of scope of RCD/RCR as it's just doing up an old boat. 

 

Also OP, don't bother with engine numbers, there's no "V5" for boats you can use to trace it. Get it into a place where you're ready to launch then just register it with CRT as something sensible and some sort of sensible age (I'd say to call it a mid 80's Colecraft, as that's what I think it is) and they'll assign it a new index number. My last boat came off the Broads so was old, but not on the CRT system, so I had to do this 

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41 minutes ago, harrybsmith said:

Hang on, I think (but may be mistaken) that a few may have the wrong end of the stick here. I don't think it's a modern hull build, probably 70s or 80s and had a wooden cabin on it, which has evaporated/dissolved/been enthusiastically stripped off then the project abandoned, thus it's out of scope of RCD/RCR as it's just doing up an old boat. 

 

 

That used to be the case but I think you are now very wrong on that. First the OP quoted 1997 and that is as far as know the year the RCD came in so the month may be vital.

 

Secondly fairy recent changes to the RCR/RCD seem to say that if you carry out major work the whole boat has to comply with the RCR/RCD. Fitting out a hull would seem to be major work to me.

 

Also with no documents how can the OP prove the hull predates the RCD? If push ever did come to shove I doubt a court would accept word of mouth unless corroborated by a number of people.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 hour ago, Jason rigby said:

Just shell no plate or name can make out 

 

Nothing 

IMG-20220513-WA0008.jpg

Yes but with no markings it  was just a shell 

IMG-20220513-WA0008.jpg

Views of the bows and stern would be much more helpful for identification.  I agree that that timber front bulkhead and door, and the rusty steel upstand along the gunwale suggest that this boat once had a wooden (or possibly GRP) cabin, now removed, in which case this hull is likely to date from the 1970s or 80s, and so predates all the RCD stuff.

 

From what I can see it looks like quite a shapely hull, so a good candidate for rebuild.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That used to be the case but I think you are now very wrong on that. First the OP quoted 1997 and that is as far as know the year the RCD came in so the month may be vital.

 

Secondly fairy recent changes to the RCR/RCD seem to say that if you carry out major work the whole boat has to comply with the RCR/RCD. Fitting out a hull would seem to be major work to me.

 

Also with no documents how can the OP prove the hull predates the RCD? If push ever did come to shove I doubt a curt would accept word of mouth unless corroborated by a number of people.

 

Oh well, OK... That makes my own current project even more interesting! I'm so up for getting a Lister SR3 to pass the relevant Euro emissions standard

 

Thanks for the clarification, learn something new everyday. RCR manual will be this week's bedtime reading 

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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Views of the bows and stern would be much more helpful for identification.  I agree that that timber front bulkhead and door, and the rusty steel upstand along the gunwale suggest that this boat once had a wooden (or possibly GRP) cabin, now removed, in which case this hull is likely to date from the 1970s or 80s, and so predates all the RCD stuff.

 

From what I can see it looks like quite a shapely hull, so a good candidate for rebuild.

It had a steel frame and sheet metal when the person got it. said it was full of rust so tuck it off and had frames made it was a project he never got round to finish after that left for 4yr in barn then 6month in open  not a lot of pitting on it 

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It still requires an Annex111a or its own RCD/RCR certificate to be fully legal. Ask yourself why does it seem not to have either.

 

In fact, if you bought this boat, you may already have conspired with the vendor to commit a criminal act (yes RCD/RCR matters are criminal and not civil). It is exceptionally unlikely that anyone is interested in that but down the line you could easily be the one committing the criminal act.

 

I am ducking out of this conversation now I have warned you about the pitfalls in completing this boat without the necessary documentation.

It not for resale ever 

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I reckon it's a Rugby boat builders hull. 

 

Originally wooden or composite cabin. 

 

The wagon it is on is a bit of a honey. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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Photos of the bow and stern will be most helpfull as will photos of the internal structure particularly the engine and weedhatch area.

Colecraft has been mentioned, my 98-99 shell has a date written backwards in weld on the weedhatch upstand.

 

Bod.

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On 03/07/2022 at 11:54, Jason rigby said:

Hi I have a 57 dry Dock shell being sorted slowly just wondering how to fine out who made it told its 1997 can't make out the  brass plate on engine I know it's not a springer as told they have are flat at the back mine comes to a v wear propshaft comes out any idears 

Ultrasonic test at 5.8mm to 5.9mm

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14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If that is the baseplate I very much doubt it is 1997, 6mm baseplates became uncommon years before, maybe 10 to 20 years.

That's the sides didn't do bottom until its striped back I known it work over paint but want it bare metal so can have a look at same tym

17 minutes ago, Jason rigby said:

Ultrasonic test at 5.8mm to 5.9mm

 

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

I reckon it's a Rugby boat builders hull. 

 

Originally wooden or composite cabin. 

 

The wagon it is on is a bit of a honey. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's one them thing I never know 

 

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The bit I painted in orange is very distinctive on a Rugby boat. Much more pronounced than most other builders. They also did a lot of steel hulls with wood/composite cabins which adds up in this situation. 

 

It's a nice hull. Rubbing strakes in the right places always good to see a full length underwater strake. 

 

IMG_20220704_225158.jpg.6469c47d5912f6c59203e289c1c5eb5d.jpg

 

Need to get pics of bow and stern. Are the cants (raised edges around edge of back deck) on the back deck made of wood? If so they might be missing and some heavy corrosion / pitting around the edges of the deck where the cants were bolted on. Same for the foredeck cants. 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'd fully expect it to be a 2017 shell, irrespective of it actually being a later build :

 

On 18 January 2017, the new European Union (EU) Recreational Craft Directive becomes mandatory, affecting not only those designers and manufacturers who operate within Europe, but also international manufacturers and distributors wishing to trade to the European market. This makes understanding the requirements of the new Recreational Craft Directive relevant to those operating in Europe, as well as further afield.

Regulation in the marine industry is becoming increasingly stringent, and meeting the highest standards in safety and quality is key to maintaining a commercial advantage in a competitive market. The Recreational Craft Directive in particular is one example of a standard regulation that is evolving, with a view to improving the safety and quality of craft sold and operated within the EU.

 

The original Recreational Craft Directive was brought into force on 15th June 1998, and is applicable to craft built after that date of between 2.5 and 24 meters in hull length that are intended for sport and leisure use, regardless of the means of propulsion. 

The directive was later amended to widen both the scope of the craft affected by the regulation, for example to include personal watercraft such as jet skis, and also to increase the scale of the survey to now include exhaust and noise emissions. As technological advances drive the ever increasing use of new and innovative recreational craft designs, cutting edge vessels are entering the market that do not necessarily conform to a standard layout or design. Therefore ensuring that regulations are applicable to both traditional craft as well as groundbreaking new designs, is crucial to ensuring a consistent level of safety and quality is maintained across the entire industry. The regulations need to evolve to reflect the scope and breadth of the market today.

 

The Recreational Craft Directive sets out a clear set of safety and quality standards which must be met before a craft can be certified. Without this certification the craft cannot be sold or operated within the EU/UK and this applies to all craft, fully or partially built, and constructed within or imported from without EU/UK waters. The requirements of the directive, known as Essential Requirements (ER), cover all aspects of the design, manufacture and operation of the craft, including strength of construction, stability and handling, fuel handling systems and documentation. Both the vessel builder and the owner or importer, are legally responsible for ensuring that the craft is evaluated and is certified to have met the required standards, before the craft can be bought, sold or operated within the EU/UK.

 

 

Are the words "Without this certification the craft cannot be ..........  operated within the EU/UK "  actually enforced?

 

I am no longer up to date on these matters but I get the impression that most of us understand that the RCD requirements only apply to selling the boat (within 5 years, or has that also been revised?).

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21 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

 

Are the words "Without this certification the craft cannot be ..........  operated within the EU/UK "  actually enforced?

 

I am no longer up to date on these matters but I get the impression that most of us understand that the RCD requirements only apply to selling the boat (within 5 years, or has that also been revised?).

Its all got a bit complicated in cases like the OPs. I was recently (very minorly) involved in a similar situation of a pre 2017 boat that had been extensively refitted unfortuantly after 2017.

Alot of conflicting opinions between all parties and the end result was , to cover everyones arses legally, the seller deducted several thousand to cover the cost of having RCD carried out retrospectively. 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I am no longer up to date on these matters but I get the impression that most of us understand that the RCD requirements only apply to selling the boat (within 5 years, or has that also been revised?).

 

Yes the whole thing was revised in 2017 - the RCD now applies for the whole life of the boat and it can be invalidated if you do something major &/or safety related (change the gas pipe, wiring etc) without having it re-assessed. (Called a PCA = Post Construction Assessment)

eg You can only change the engine for an 'approved' engine and the HP of the engine can only be within +/- 10% of the original engine.

 

If the boat is found to be non-compliant (for any reason) during its life, and it is due to something the original builder did then they are legally responsible for it and any injury or death that it causes.

 

The 'old 5 year rule' simply means that a DIY built boat that has not been built and certified as RCD / RCR compliant cannot be sold for 5 years from'being placed on the market' (basically 1st use)

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21 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Its all got a bit complicated in cases like the OPs. I was recently (very minorly) involved in a similar situation of a pre 2017 boat that had been extensively refitted unfortuantly after 2017.

Alot of conflicting opinions between all parties and the end result was , to cover everyones arses legally, the seller deducted several thousand to cover the cost of having RCD carried out retrospectively. 

 

 

 

The boat won't be sold any time in future its going to be our retirement home 

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25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes the whole thing was revised in 2017 - the RCD now applies for the whole life of the boat and it can be invalidated if you do something major &/or safety related (change the gas pipe, wiring etc) without having it re-assessed. (Called a PCA = Post Construction Assessment)

But does that apply to post-2017 boats only, post-1997 boats, or all boats?

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I'm sure it doesn't apply before 1998. 

 

The boat in the picture seems more likely to be a 70s or 80s craft. 

 

Someone may just have said it was 1997 as that is the year before the RCD came in. 

 

One does wonder if there are an unusually large number of boats registered as having been built in1997 ;)

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Just now, David Mack said:

But does that apply to post-2017 boats only, post-1997 boats, or all boats?

 

I don't know, I have not been able to find any information on that.

 

I'd GUESS that as it is not 'normal' to introduce legislation that is applied retrospectively (affects 'how things were done in the past') that it would only apply to post 2017 boats.

 

BUT - you never know.

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14 minutes ago, Jason rigby said:

The boat won't be sold any time in future its going to be our retirement home 

Probably a good reason to sort it out now then, so the surviving partner doesn't have the hassle when they are even less able to handle it.

 

Tam

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57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

The 'old 5 year rule' simply means that a DIY built boat that has not been built and certified as RCD / RCR compliant cannot be sold for 5 years from'being placed on the market' (basically 1st use)

Shome mishtake, shurley?

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1 hour ago, Tacet said:

Shome mishtake, shurley?

 

Why ?

What are you thinking 'placed on the market' means ?

 

"Placed on the market" does not mean "offered for sale"

 

If, for whatever reason, a watercraft built for own use is intended to be placed on the Union market, whether completed or partly completed, within the 5 year period, then conformity assessment by a person or persons fulfilling the role of manufacturer would be required in accordance with the provisions of Article 19(4) of the Directive by post-construction assessment, according Article 23 of the Directive. These persons would take the responsibility for the equivalent conformity of the design, construction and environmental performance of the watercraft, and any modification to it necessary to achieve this equivalent conformity. The assessment of the equivalent conformity with essential requirements of the Directive requires the involvement of a notified body (see comments to Annex V of the Directive).

 

As I suggested above, it is commonly taken, as being when the boat is 'first used' (or sometimes 'completed' however the official definition is :

 

 

The Regulations place the responsibility of ensuring the craft meets all the requirements of the RCD upon the person who first places the craft on the EEA market. First placing on the market is a legal term that has several meanings:

It usually happens when the completed craft is sold by the manufacturer to the person who is going to use it or a dealer for further distribution.
It also happens when the completed craft is used for the first time, as in the case of a Home build or added to the manufacturer’s charter fleet.
With imported boats it happens when it clears customs because it is then available for use or distribution.
This is the point when the completed craft must comply with all the requirements of the RCD.
The requirements apply equally to businesses and private individuals.

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