Are boaters getting more selfish or is it just the world in general

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Whistles (or other sound making devices) are usually attached to lifejackets.

 

Watertight torches are readily available (mine will work in up to 100 metres of water) they can be held in place on lifejacket straps, onto the paddle etc by simple 1" cut-offs of bicycle inner tubes (or buy the factory version - called Snoopy-loops - at around £2 each)

 

 

Do you honestly think a whistle could be heard by anything with a motor.   I thought a mast head light(s) was a requirement not to mention part and starboard lights.   Is there a cut down version of Colregs for such craft as canoes?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Do you honestly feel that the suggestion of a whistle would be heard particularly by anything with a motor?

 

It meets the requirements, and in fact is actually specifued in the Canal By-Laws.

 

 

Sound signals 12.

 

(1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be furnished with an efficient whistle.

 

(2) When vessels are in sight of one another the master of a power-driven vessel under way in taking any of the courses hereinafter referred to in this Bye-law shall indicate that course by following signals on such whistle, namely : One short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”, two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”, three short blasts to mean “My engines are going astern”, four short blasts to mean “I am about to turn or to turn round”. This signal shall be followed after a short interval by one short blast if turning to starboard or two short blasts if turning to port and shall be repeated to any approaching vessel, whereupon such approaching vessel shall take action to avoid collision.

 

(3) In fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorm or any other conditions similarly restricting visibility whether by night or day, the following signals shall be used:-

(a) A power-driven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes a prolonged blast.

(b) A power-driven vessel under way but stopped and making no way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes, two prolonged blasts with an interval of about one second between them.

(c) A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable to get out of the way of an approaching vessel through being not under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute, three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed by two short blasts.

(d) Every vessel aground in the fairway or mid-channel shall, so long as she remains aground, signify the same by sounding five or more blasts in rapid succession at intervals of not more than one minute.

 

(4) When the view of the canal ahead is obstructed by a bend in the canal and until such view is no longer obscured, a power driven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of twenty seconds, a prolonged blast.

 

(5) The Master of a power driven vessel approaching a lock which is operated by staff provided by the Board for that purpose and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast.

 

(6) The Master of a power-driven vessel intending to pass a moveable bridge, which is operated by staff provided by the Board or other authority, and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast.

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is there a cut down version of Colregs for such craft as canoes?

 

You have already been shown there is in an earlier post.

 

Are you bored and looking for something to do ?

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It meets the requirements, and in fact is actually specifued in the Canal By-Laws.

 

 

Sound signals 12.

 

(1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be furnished with an efficient whistle.

 

(2) When vessels are in sight of one another the master of a power-driven vessel under way in taking any of the courses hereinafter referred to in this Bye-law shall indicate that course by following signals on such whistle, namely : One short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”, two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”, three short blasts to mean “My engines are going astern”, four short blasts to mean “I am about to turn or to turn round”. This signal shall be followed after a short interval by one short blast if turning to starboard or two short blasts if turning to port and shall be repeated to any approaching vessel, whereupon such approaching vessel shall take action to avoid collision.

 

(3) In fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorm or any other conditions similarly restricting visibility whether by night or day, the following signals shall be used:-

(a) A power-driven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes a prolonged blast.

(b) A power-driven vessel under way but stopped and making no way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes, two prolonged blasts with an interval of about one second between them.

(c) A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable to get out of the way of an approaching vessel through being not under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute, three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed by two short blasts.

(d) Every vessel aground in the fairway or mid-channel shall, so long as she remains aground, signify the same by sounding five or more blasts in rapid succession at intervals of not more than one minute.

 

(4) When the view of the canal ahead is obstructed by a bend in the canal and until such view is no longer obscured, a power driven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of twenty seconds, a prolonged blast.

 

(5) The Master of a power driven vessel approaching a lock which is operated by staff provided by the Board for that purpose and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast.

 

(6) The Master of a power-driven vessel intending to pass a moveable bridge, which is operated by staff provided by the Board or other authority, and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast.

 

You have already been shown there is in an earlier post.

 

Are you bored and looking for something to do ?

I am trying to get my head round the fact that some, such as yourself make great stress of the Colregs for inland waters and yet such organisations as the BCU don't mention Colregs and don't even say a torch must be carried or a whistle must be carried.   Colregs weren't even mentioned when I took my BCU instructors certificate, admittedly several decades ago.

 

If a canoe is classed as a vessel (the English language doesn't class it as such) then surely there should be more emphasis by such organisations as the BCU and the Lake District National Parks on ensuring the regs are known and obeyed.  Presumably they have legal advisors who would have advised a bum covering exercise e.g. "I assumed the BCU told me all I needed to know in their safety document and example risk assessment, so its their fault".   They are after all the national controlling body.

 

It seems to me their are two camps those who think Colregs are the be all and end all and insist anything floating in an inch of water should be fully compliant and those (the BCU seems to be one) who think the Colregs aren't for such small boats.  Again looking at hire boats e.g. Day Boats and the pleasure boats on the Lakes why aren't either their legal advisors or professional bodies saying " you must equip your boats for Colregs".

 

I tend to think BCU have got it right and below a certain size the regs don't apply.

 

Incidentally just because a bylaw mentions a whistle it doesn't say it would be any use apart from perhas back when boats were horse drawn.

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

 

Incidentally just because a bylaw mentions a whistle it doesn't say it would be any use apart from perhas back when boats were horse drawn.

 

 

It does say "powered boats"

 

I'll TTFN and leave you to talk to yourself.

[Iain_S]

58 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I am trying to get my head round the fact that some, such as yourself make great stress of the Colregs for inland waters and yet such organisations as the BCU don't mention Colregs and don't even say a torch must be carried or a whistle must be carried.   Colregs weren't even mentioned when I took my BCU instructors certificate, admittedly several decades ago.

 

If a canoe is classed as a vessel (the English language doesn't class it as such) then surely there should be more emphasis by such organisations as the BCU and the Lake District National Parks on ensuring the regs are known and obeyed.  Presumably they have legal advisors who would have advised a bum covering exercise e.g. "I assumed the BCU told me all I needed to know in their safety document and example risk assessment, so its their fault".   They are after all the national controlling body.

 

It seems to me their are two camps those who think Colregs are the be all and end all and insist anything floating in an inch of water should be fully compliant and those (the BCU seems to be one) who think the Colregs aren't for such small boats.  Again looking at hire boats e.g. Day Boats and the pleasure boats on the Lakes why aren't either their legal advisors or professional bodies saying " you must equip your boats for Colregs".

 

I tend to think BCU have got it right and below a certain size the regs don't apply.

 

Incidentally just because a bylaw mentions a whistle it doesn't say it would be any use apart from perhas back when boats were horse drawn.

With regard to the Lake district, how many of the lakes have a navigable link to the sea? In any case, most, if not all, in the Lake District National Parks area are covered by bylaws. Link The Colregs themselves state that they may be over-ridden by local rules, so that, even if they were applicable to the Lakes, the Bylaws would supersede them.

 

We only got on to Colregs discussion via sound signals. My own view is that sound (or light) signals are a useful tool in some circumstances, making life easier and allowing more efficient boating (Example of boats approaching bridge from each side long way back 😉). They are not, however, a necessity, apart perhaps from the long blast to indicate presence to unseen boats. Bit like bowthrusters in that respect, I guess.

 

However, given their potential usefulness, I am quite surprised at the number of boaters (quoted poster not included) who seem to take a perverse pride in not knowing or using them. (even more like bowthrusters!)

 

 

[PD1964]

From what I’ve seen this year, a lot of boaters are newbies that just don’t understand the basics, like not mooring in the middle of landings and bunching up to leave space for others, like the boat below, boat seamed unattended on a popular mooring. All they had to do was either moor a couple of Bollards left/right and another 57/58’  boat could of got in. 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

From what I’ve seen this year, a lot of boaters are newbies that just don’t understand the basics, like not mooring in the middle of landings and bunching up to leave space for others, like the boat below, boat seamed unattended on a popular mooring. All they had to do was either moor a couple of Bollards left/right and another 57/58’  boat could of got in. 

 

That boat may well have squeezed itself in between two 23ft GRPs, which subsequently untied and cruised off. 

 

 

 

[PD1964]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

That boat may well have squeezed itself in between two 23ft GRPs, which subsequently untied and cruised off. 

 More like didn’t want to moor towards the GRP to the left, without showing too much. In all cases I would hope the boat re-tied to allow a boat to moor.

Edited September 20, 2022 by PD1964

[haggis]

The last time we moored in Lymm in July,  it was pretty full and a boat had moored in the middle of a big gap between two working boats which had been there for an event the previous weekend. If he had moored next to either a 58 foot boat could have got in. One of the people from the boat  sat out on their chair on the  tarmac bit between the boat and the  rails and it was pretty difficult to get past the chair. I had to resort to climbing through the railing. Not easy when you are a bit ancient. 

Did we say anything ? No ! We were only there overnight and life is just too short to make  a fuss. Felt a bit sorry for boats which came along later and couldn't get moored though 

 

 

 

[Ken X]

Just to reassure that all is not doom and gloom, we stuck our hire boat into Leeds Dock this July and, amazingly, saw a gap in the moorings.  We looked at the gap and then at our boat and thought "its going to be close".  Approaching with care it became apparent it was going to be "real close".  I stuck the nose in and the owners of both adjacent boats popped out and said "no problem, if its too tight we'll move for you."  As it happened, we just slotted in with no adjustment required.  Had a good chat with the other boats and wandered into the Armouries.  The joys of hire boating and guesswork.  Not the first time other boats have shuffled up for us over the years.  We often find that if you ask, and plead ignorance of your boats length due to having just picked it up, a helping hand is usually offered. 🙂

 

 

[Tony1]

41 minutes ago, haggis said:

The last time we moored in Lymm in July,  it was pretty full and a boat had moored in the middle of a big gap between two working boats which had been there for an event the previous weekend. If he had moored next to either a 58 foot boat could have got in. One of the people from the boat  sat out on their chair on the  tarmac bit between the boat and the  rails and it was pretty difficult to get past the chair. I had to resort to climbing through the railing. Not easy when you are a bit ancient. 

Did we say anything ? No ! We were only there overnight and life is just too short to make  a fuss. Felt a bit sorry for boats which came along later and couldn't get moored though 

 

 

 

 

I sometimes feel like its a bit tricky deciding when to moor right up to the next boat to maximise the free space left. 

In busy places I always do that, and so does almost everyone else, but in quieter places that general rule seems to be stretched a bit. 

For example, I needed to stop outside Tattenhall overnight, and all the boats were moored one ring apart- by which I mean they had not moored onto the same ring to get close in, but were mostly moored on to the next one along. So there was a space of at least 20ft in between boats. 

These people clearly like their privacy, I thought.

'When in Rome', etc- so I did the same. I got into a space between two boats and moored the same way. 

If I had moored right up close, a 45 footer might have possibly squeezed in, and tbh I felt a bit guilty about not making another space- but that said, it was after 6pm, and I was leaving at 9am the next day, otherwise I probably wouldn't have moored that way. 

In really busy places like Nantwich it feels like committing heresy and murder combined when you leave a ten foot gap between boats. Not that you would ever do that of course. 

I would expect to be stoned to death by a crowd of justifiably irate boaters for such a crime. 

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

That boat may well have squeezed itself in between two 23ft GRPs, which subsequently untied and cruised off. 

 

 

 

Or there could have been a line of 60 foot boats who have all subsequently moved off just leaving him, and the cruiser has arrived since then.

1 hour ago, Ken X said:

Just to reassure that all is not doom and gloom, we stuck our hire boat into Leeds Dock this July and, amazingly, saw a gap in the moorings.  We looked at the gap and then at our boat and thought "its going to be close".  Approaching with care it became apparent it was going to be "real close".  I stuck the nose in and the owners of both adjacent boats popped out and said "no problem, if its too tight we'll move for you."  As it happened, we just slotted in with no adjustment required.  Had a good chat with the other boats and wandered into the Armouries.  The joys of hire boating and guesswork.  Not the first time other boats have shuffled up for us over the years.  We often find that if you ask, and plead ignorance of your boats length due to having just picked it up, a helping hand is usually offered. 🙂

 

 

That is the point, before criticising, it's always worth asking people, politely, if they could move a short way to let you get in, most people in my experience will on Visitor Moorings. If however someone has moored up in the middle of nowhere but hasn't left space for anyone else to moor it kind of suggests that they want some privacy, and I'll respect that and find somewhere else to moor.

[Tony1]

42 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Or there could have been a line of 60 foot boats who have all subsequently moved off just leaving him, and the cruiser has arrived since then.

That is the point, before criticising, it's always worth asking people, politely, if they could move a short way to let you get in, most people in my experience will on Visitor Moorings. If however someone has moored up in the middle of nowhere but hasn't left space for anyone else to moor it kind of suggests that they want some privacy, and I'll respect that and find somewhere else to moor.

 

Last winter I passed a large flash on the left, just north of bridge 180 on the T+M.

I was pondering stopping for the afternoon anyway, and on the map this looked a likely spot. 

As I passed it looked as if there were two spaces with mooring rings, and then a wide concrete bank that would have made it slightly difficult to moor.

But a single boat was moored right in the centre. 

On one hand you could say 'ok, this person clearly wants some privacy'. And tbh I generally prefer to moor at least 50 yards away from other boats if I can. 

But on the other hand, you think: here's this lovely spot, fairly isolated and very quiet, with a genuinely beautiful view over the flash, and two people could enjoy it easily, but this person has chosen to make a statement that they dont want anyone else to join them.

And as its winter, they could have been there for a fortnight or more. 

So for me, even though I enjoy being alone in beauty spots, I would never deny someone else the chance to stop there by mooring right in the middle.

I like privacy, and I respect others' privacy, but for me that behaviour is just selfish. 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Tony1

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, haggis said:

a big gap between two working boats which had been there for an event the previous weekend.

 

Maybe if they had moved after the event finished there would have been less of a problem ...

 

Had they been moored there a week or more before the event too? 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

36 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Last winter I passed a large flash on the left, just north of bridge 180 on the T+M.

I was pondering stopping for the afternoon anyway, and on the map this looked a likely spot. 

As I passed it looked as if there were two spaces with mooring rings, and then a wide concrete bank that would have made it slightly difficult to moor.

But a single boat was moored right in the centre. 

On one hand you could say 'ok, this person clearly wants some privacy'. And tbh I generally prefer to moor at least 50 yards away from other boats if I can. 

But on the other hand, you think: here's this lovely spot, fairly isolated and very quiet, with a genuinely beautiful view over the flash, and two people could enjoy it easily, but this person has chosen to make a statement that they dont want anyone else to join them.

And as its winter, they could have been there for a fortnight or more. 

So for me, even though I enjoy being alone in beauty spots, I would never deny someone else the chance to stop there by mooring right in the middle.

I like privacy, and I respect others' privacy, but for me that behaviour is just selfish. 

 

 

 

My interpretation would be that if there are mooring rings, then it is visitor moorings and, as such, you can moor as close as is necessary to get in. I was thinking more of places where there is armco or even boats moored on pins. I wouldn't ask anyone on them if they could possibly more to let me in, but anything I would view as visitor moorings is, in my opinion (others are available) fair game. Mostly, when asked, people will agree to do so in my experience and can often be the precursor to a more general discussion. If they are *rsey about it, would I really want to be moored near them?.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Or there could have been a line of 60 foot boats who have all subsequently moved off just leaving him, and the cruiser has arrived since then.

No been there for days from asking  other boaters if there was space there. Long Sandall S&SY moorings. You can’t get a line of 60ft boats on there, two and a 30ft GRP max??

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

No been there for days from asking  other boaters if there was space there. Long Sandall S&SY moorings. You can’t get a line of 60ft boats on there, two and a 30ft GRP max??

I think I'd still want to know what the mooring situation had been when he/she arrived. I once left our boat on the Nantwich embankment in a full line of boats. When I got back there were 'git-gaps' both in front and behind of my boat, left by others but it looked as though I'd created them (despite being away for a week).

 

As I said above one solution is to move into the mooring, either in front or behind and then tap on the boat and ask if they could give you a few feet more room. If you get no reply because there is no-one on the boat,then the other option (slightly more 'radical'), is simply to move it a few feet either way. If later challenged, either deny all knowledge ('Must've been someone else guv') or state that the boat had come adrift somehow or other and you'd simply retied for them and accept their gratitude.

 

Came across a similar situation when mooring at Castle Gardens in Leicester recently, a boat was moored in the middle of the pontoon on a single piece of string to the handrail in the centre. Another boater came and was trying to fit in the remaining gap and the obstructing boat seemed to then have been moved (can't think of how that happened). When the boat owner returned later in the day he looked a bit puzzled, but said nothing.

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

 Mostly, when asked, people will agree to do so in my experience and can often be the precursor to a more general discussion. If they are *rsey about it, would I really want to be moored near them?.

 

This is my point really- they are making a very very overt statement that they don't want any other boats mooring there.

And in order to moor there, you would have to pull over, and hold the boat in with a rope (or on one of the rings) whilst you go knocking on their boat and ask if they would mind moving up a couple of rings so that you can moor.

What these people are counting on is that almost everyone will look at the situation and think: 'They dont want me here, and they're making it a hassle for me to stay here. I wont bother asking.' 

If you asked nicely, the truth is most of them would probably move out of the way. But we all know there is also a chance they will be awkward, sullen or in rare cases aggressive about it- and at the end of the day there is literally nothing you can do to force them to move over- or at least nothing that is legal.

I think if it was for a day or two, I wouldn't care.

But its just unfair that these selfish buggers are making an attempt to hog the most beautiful spot around for two weeks at the very least (and this was December, so chances are they will have stayed longer if not chased by CRT).

In fact, next time I pass that spot and one person is moored in the middle, I'm going to stop and ask them to move over, for the hell of it. 

 

 

[PD1964]

18 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think I'd still want to know what the mooring situation had been when he/she arrived. I once left our boat on the Nantwich embankment in a full line of boats. When I got back there were 'git-gaps' both in front and behind of my boat, left by others but it looked as though I'd created them (despite being away for a week).

 

As I said above one solution is to move into the mooring, either in front or behind and then tap on the boat and ask if they could give you a few feet more room. If you get no reply because there is no-one on the boat,then the other option (slightly more 'radical'), is simply to move it a few feet either way. If later challenged, either deny all knowledge ('Must've been someone else guv') or state that the boat had come adrift somehow or other and you'd simply retied for them and accept their gratitude.

 

Came across a similar situation when mooring at Castle Gardens in Leicester recently, a boat was moored in the middle of the pontoon on a single piece of string to the handrail in the centre. Another boater came and was trying to fit in the remaining gap and the obstructing boat seemed to then have been moved (can't think of how that happened). When the boat owner returned later in the day he looked a bit puzzled, but said nothing.

  Maybe Newbies “Living the CCing dream”  who don’t realise the  mooring etiquette of leaving space, or just don’t want to moor next to a GRP? Only sold a couple of months ago. As I said uneducated Newbies by the looks.

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/south-west-durham-50-cruiser-stern-for-sale/705427

Edited September 20, 2022 by PD1964

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

In fact, next time I pass that spot and one person is moored in the middle, I'm going to stop and ask them to move over, for the hell of it. 

 

Nah, just breast up to them! 

 

"Room for us both here mate!"

 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Last winter I passed a large flash on the left, just north of bridge 180 on the T+M.

I was pondering stopping for the afternoon anyway, and on the map this looked a likely spot. 

As I passed it looked as if there were two spaces with mooring rings, and then a wide concrete bank that would have made it slightly difficult to moor.

But a single boat was moored right in the centre. 

On one hand you could say 'ok, this person clearly wants some privacy'. And tbh I generally prefer to moor at least 50 yards away from other boats if I can. 

But on the other hand, you think: here's this lovely spot, fairly isolated and very quiet, with a genuinely beautiful view over the flash, and two people could enjoy it easily, but this person has chosen to make a statement that they dont want anyone else to join them.

And as its winter, they could have been there for a fortnight or more. 

So for me, even though I enjoy being alone in beauty spots, I would never deny someone else the chance to stop there by mooring right in the middle.

I like privacy, and I respect others' privacy, but for me that behaviour is just selfish. 

 

 

 

I know that one. It's a tight mooring at the north end if the flash, but there's loads of room as you go along it, but no rings. Everyone usually just bangs pins in and the boats are often nose to tail. It's a popular spot, but not a designated visitor mooring. You can just squeeze two boats in at the north end, but you would be very close.

The smaller flash a bit further along used to be a fallback mooring if the other was full, but someone's stuck a load of pontoons on the offside and turned into a commercial basin.  I have a vague memory that the whole area is going to have HS2 bang through the middle of it, if it ever gets built.

[haggis]

44 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Maybe if they had moved after the event finished there would have been less of a problem ...

 

Had they been moored there a week or more before the event too? 

No idea but I presumed when the boats were still there that it had been agreed with the organises that if they attended the event they could stay on the mooring till they were free to move the boat again.. Where they were moored there was plenty of room for two 58 foot or so boats between them, till a boat tied up bang in the middle

 

[ditchcrawler]

What gets me is the boat that moors one ring from the end of a row of moorings. First or last you could use the end ring 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What gets me is the boat that moors one ring from the end of a row of moorings. First or last you could use the end ring 

I'll agree with you on that! Whenever mooring and expecting to leave the boat for any period I will always try to be the one on the very end mooring, just to make sure I don't come back to find 'git gaps' around my boat.

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What gets me is the boat that moors one ring from the end of a row of moorings. First or last you could use the end ring 

For me it's the boat who, on either a visitor mooring or out in the middle of nowhere, with acres of space, moors tight up against you and then leaves the engine running for hours while they lock up and go for a walk. Or there's the one with the blasted parrot shrieking in a cage on the front deck, who moored up two feet away from my back doors two days running.