Are boaters getting more selfish or is it just the world in general

[Paul C]

I think the correct thing would have been for Nick to give 2 hoots. If the other boat agreed to pass on the wrong side, their reply would also be 2 hoots. If not though, they can give 1 hoot to indicate "I am coming at you! (And will pass on the normal side)". 

 

In other words, a pass on the wrong side is requested, not enforced upon another.

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I think the correct thing would have been for Nick to give 2 hoots. If the other boat agreed to pass on the wrong side, their reply would also be 2 hoots. If not though, they can give 1 hoot to indicate "I am coming at you! (And will pass on the normal side)". 

 

In other words, a pass on the wrong side is requested, not enforced upon another.

In an ideal world, yes, but there was  insufficient time nor did I have much confidence in the ability of the other chap to understand the collreg signals, whereas an arm signal is pretty instantaneous and I thought fairly obvious, but it seems I was wrong about that last bit.

 

Maybe because when I learnt to ride a motorbike and drive a car, you had to do hand signals. It was never contemplated that a hand signal given from a motor vehicle might be an indication for someone else to do something!

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by nicknorman

[Paul C]

Yeah, pragmatically these days you give a horn signal and hope the other boater understands it. I've found that 1 long hoot is universally understood, especially when the context is something like approaching a bridge hole and its close to judge who would arrive first. I have been pleasantly surprised by how many other boaters DO know their horn signals though (maybe my expectations are low!)

[gatekrash]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

There were plenty of Go Boats out last Saturday, I think it was them that weren't very happy when I had Scorpio, Leo and Swift three a breast outside the Roundhouse.  Mostly seemed to be groups drinking whilst pottering along in the Go Boats 

Loads out yesterday as well. We moored in Oozells and there was only 1 of the go-boats left in there when we got there, the rest were out.

 

We've just arrived at the BCLM moorings and had a hire boat managing to take the entire mooring space to himself, nobody on board. Couldn't get our 50 footer on the rings in front of him and couldn't go behind without being alongside the bridge. So we've moved him backwards one ring and tucked in front.

 

The look of utter disgust they've just given me when they came back 5 minutes ago and saw a boat in front of them suggests they'd done it on purpose too. I shall smile sweetly and say good afternoon when I walk past in a minute 😁

[Ronaldo47]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I agree with much of that. On the historic boat thing though, whilst I appreciate such boats are less manoeuvrable, I think it is mostly up to the steerer to compensate for that by eg not approaching blind corners and bridges at a speed where they are effectively out of control, rather than requiring everyone else to get out of their way.

 

Actually today’s event was as much about the demeanour of the steerer as it was about how he steered. And a bit worrying that someone in charge of such a big lump is unaware that sometimes it’s prudent to pass on the “wrong side”, and the signalling that goes with it - albeit informal signalling.

On my very first narrowboat holiday in the mid-1970's we were winding our 60' boat on the GU at Braunston  and had just reached the 90° point, when the bows of a boat with a breaking bow wave emerged from the bridge hole of the Southern junction with the Oxford canal. It was a BW-crewed ex-working boat and butty, being used as a camping barge. We sounded our horn, and I yelled down our hatch to warn those inside we were about to get rammed,  but he had no forward lookout and, presumably because of what I now understand the difficulty such boats have in rapidly engaging reverse, and the momentum of such a large boat and butty, we did get rammed, fortunately with no damage. The steerer gave us an earful, and being inexperienced, we were not sure whose fault it was, so let it pass, but he was clearly going too fast.  We were some distance from the junction. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Hudds Lad]

I’ve never found a horn to be of any use whatsoever, nobody ever hears them, or admits to hearing them when asked about it. Last time out, approaching a blind bridge ‘ole, i gave a long honk and on hearing and seeing nothing further slowly passed under. Imagine my surprise to find a boat patiently waiting the other side. I thanked the chap for waiting and told him that was the first time using the horn had ever worked in my favour. No problem he said, but what horn? He’d seen my bow coming out of the bridge so had waited 🤷‍♂️

 

I approach any blind bend or bridge expecting to meet something, at a slow enough speed to deal with it, the amount of folk who’ll blindly go unsighted at full chat IMHO has increased.

[reg]

On 02/07/2022 at 11:17, Arthur Marshall said:

there are more people on boats than there were,

I think that may well be the crux of the problem nowadays. It seems to me that small groups travel together as a "community" and seem to think they have some sort of ownership of certain areas. Problem particularly bad in the South east. 

I can see the problem but have no solution to offer.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, gatekrash said:

So we've moved him backwards one ring and tucked in front.

 

Disgraceful!  You should have moved it all the way to the end of the mooring 😁

[furnessvale]

47 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

I’ve never found a horn to be of any use whatsoever, nobody ever hears them, or admits to hearing them when asked about it. Last time out, approaching a blind bridge ‘ole, i gave a long honk and on hearing and seeing nothing further slowly passed under. Imagine my surprise to find a boat patiently waiting the other side. I thanked the chap for waiting and told him that was the first time using the horn had ever worked in my favour. No problem he said, but what horn? He’d seen my bow coming out of the bridge so had waited 🤷‍♂️

 

 

Most boats these days sem to be fitted with tinny car horns that wouldn't blow the skin off a rice pudding.  The first thing I do with any boat is fit a Klaxon.  Not necessarily the genuine article.  Cheap copies are available which fit the bill.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, reg said:

I think that may well be the crux of the problem nowadays. It seems to me that small groups travel together as a "community" and seem to think they have some sort of ownership of certain areas. Problem particularly bad in the South east. 

I can see the problem but have no solution to offer.

I remember arriving at Tixall to find the whole of the wide, from where it opens out to the corner at the other end  populated nose to tail by boats on an outing from a boat club, there apparently for three days.

It's, I think, a caravan club mentality. It seem the norm according to a friend of mine, for a stack of them to go in convoy - no doubt one of our caravanny members will confirm or correct.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I remember arriving at Tixall to find the whole of the wide, from where it opens out to the corner at the other end  populated nose to tail by boats on an outing from a boat club, there apparently for three days.

It's, I think, a caravan club mentality. It seem the norm according to a friend of mine, for a stack of them to go in convoy - no doubt one of our caravanny members will confirm or correct.

 

Confirm or correct what exactly?

[Arthur Marshall]

11 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Confirm or correct what exactly?

That caravan club owners tend to take holidays in groups, with a bunch of friends, rather than going off on their own. I only know two people with caravans, and that's what they both usually (but not always) do, meeting up in arranged groups on site. No implications as to good or bad, it's just an observation and I thought could be confirmed or otherwise by someone who knows more than I do.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

That caravan club owners tend to take holidays in groups, with a bunch of friends, rather than going off on their own. I only know two people with caravans, and that's what they both usually (but not always) do, meeting up in arranged groups on site. No implications as to good or bad, it's just an observation and I thought could be confirmed or otherwise by someone who knows more than I do.

 

Caravan owners are much like everybody else. Including boat owners.

 

Some like to go to rallys, which are indeed gatherings of groups of them.

 

Some are like us and prefer to be as far away from others as we can get. Much like when we had a boat.

 

Motorhomers are able to get even further away from others and wild camp on their own. Their set up makes it easier to do that than if you have a caravan. (On board water and grey waste).

 

 

[gatekrash]

34 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

That caravan club owners tend to take holidays in groups, with a bunch of friends, rather than going off on their own. I only know two people with caravans, and that's what they both usually (but not always) do, meeting up in arranged groups on site. No implications as to good or bad, it's just an observation and I thought could be confirmed or otherwise by someone who knows more than I do.

We used to do that with our lumpy water boat, the yacht club would do an away weekend and we'd all go somewhere together, but we always phoned the harbour master in advance to let them know we were coming, and we used to end up on some random moorings sometimes. Brings back (vague) memories of a trip to Fowey where we all ended up rafted alongside a commercial sand dredger and after a lock in at the local pub at Polruan I fell down the hold whilst trying to find my boat !

Edited July 3, 2022 by gatekrash
Speeellong. And too much beer at Mad O'Rourke's...

[IanD]

4 hours ago, haggis said:

I have found that if an oncoming boat signals by waving an arm I am never sure if he is telling me what he is going to do or what he wants me to do. After this happened to me, if I need to signal my intentions to another boat I make big arm movements and point to me then to the direction I am going to go. If I want him to take any action I point to him and indicate which side. After a pause, I repeat the arm action till I get an acknowledgement .

It works every time but I still see an oncoming boater pointing to the right or left and I have no idea what they mean .

 

Me too, and it seems to work. Have also tried horn signals (one for starboard, two for port) in the past but I don't think many boaters understand them...

 

(I never have any problem remembering which was which, about 50 years ago I built a crude radio-controlled plane from scratch where the only servo control was a single button, press once for right turn, twice for left turn. Flew twice, crashed into a tree and then a brick wall...)

Edited July 3, 2022 by IanD

[Guest]

5 hours ago, haggis said:

I have found that if an oncoming boat signals by waving an arm I am never sure if he is telling me what he is going to do or what he wants me to do. After this happened to me, if I need to signal my intentions to another boat I make big arm movements and point to me then to the direction I am going to go. If I want him to take any action I point to him and indicate which side. After a pause, I repeat the arm action till I get an acknowledgement .

It works every time but I still see an oncoming boater pointing to the right or left and I have no idea what they mean .

 

Perfectly sensible and exactly what I used to do. However I once got roundly shouted down on here for having the temerity to suggest another boat should take direction from me rather than let them choose.

 

In practice however I found it usually worked just fine and pleasantries were normally exchanged as we passed.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

So is it your view that there are no circumstances under which boats could or should ever pass on the “wrong” side?

No not at all. 
 

But I think the default pass on the right is important for making a quick response to avoid collision. 
 

I guess it was the Coleshill Road Bridge?

Occasionally when crossing between locks in a short

pound I have had the other boat signal to cross wrong side for whatever reason. They’ve stuck out their left arm and my response is a raised hand or thumb. 
 

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I agree. 

 

Had Nick used the correct sound signal he would have been understood, but he doesn't mention it. 

 

I too have been signalled at with arm signals in a similar way and got it wrong. An arm pointing to one side could be taken as either "I am going to steer to this side", OR "I require you to steer to this side". Best ignored.

 

I find very few boaters understand the sound signals...☹️

 

If I need to pass on the "wrong" side I point to myself, then extend my left arm, the point to the steerer of the other boat and extend my right arm. 

 

Unfortunately some people still don't understand what I am trying/want them to do... ☹️

[Paul C]

There will be some circumstances, but I will always try my best to pass on the right even if it makes it more difficult (but not impossible) to drive, exactly because of the confusion which can develop if boaters disagree on which side to pass on.

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

I find very few boaters understand the sound signals...☹️

 

If I need to pass on the "wrong" side I point to myself, then extend my left arm, the point to the steerer of the other boat and extend my right arm. 

 

Unfortunately some people still don't understand what I am trying/want them to do... ☹️

 

Is there a standardised reference guide for boater's arm signals you could link to?

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, nicknorman said:

There is plenty of water on my left so I wave my arm  vigorously left showing that I’m going to pass on his left to make life easier for him and turn left a bit.

But the trouble with that sort of arm signal is that it has two possible meanings:

"I am going to the left"

or

"I want you to pass to my left"

You may know which you intended, but how is the other fellow supposed to know that?

Of course you could use the proper horn signal for that situation, but most boaters don't know what they mean either, and many would interpret the use of a horn as aggressive.

 

Some years ago I was steering a Large Woolwich approaching a bridge when I saw a boat coming the other way that was clearly going to reach the bridge first. So I hung back to allow the other boat to come through first. But instead of coming through at normal speed, he slowed right down and crawled through the bridge leaving me with nowhere to go. With some judicious manoeuvring I managed to keep the boat parallel to the bank, leaving room for the oncomer to pass, but much closer to the towpath than I wanted to be. Then as he drew level he wound the revs right up and his wash lifted us onto the mud, from which we had some difficulty extracting ourselves. And as he passed I saw that his boat was emblazoned with the name of a well known narrowboat training provider, and that he appeared to have students with him. With that sort of example from the supposed-professionals, is it any wonder that some newer boaters have no idea how to behave?

Edited July 3, 2022 by David Mack

[Paul C]

....But when you slowed to let him through, did you give the horn signal?

[Alan de Enfield]

Everyone keeps saying "dont bother with sound signals no one understands them"

 

Why not get folks to learn them - they have learnt to "pass red to red", is it so difficult to learn 3 or 4 sound signals.

 

C&RT could even provide a small 'sticker' when a boat licence is renewed (to put by the helm, much as some of the hire boat providers use).

 It could even be sponsored by an insurance company !

 

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Arthur Marshall]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Everyone keeps saying "dont bother with sound signals no one understands them"

 

Why not get folks to learn them - they have learnt to "pass red to red", is it so difficult to learn 3 or 4 sound signals.

 

C&RT could even provide a small 'sticker' when a boat licence is renewed (to put by the helm, much as some of the hire boat providers use).

 It could even be sponsored by an insurance company !

 

 

Because it's pointless. Two thirds of the boats you meet are hirerd and they aren't going to bother. Half of the rest can't hear a horn signal either over the engine noise or because they've got earphones in.  The other half don't care.

[Sea Dog]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Because it's pointless. Two thirds of the boats you meet are hirerd and they aren't going to bother. Half of the rest can't hear a horn signal either over the engine noise or because they've got earphones in.  The other half don't care.

Ok, ok - no need to get a toot on! 

[Ronaldo47]

Some 40 years ago we hired a boat on rge Norfolk Broads for a week. On checking the controls  prior to departure, I noticed that there was no horn.   The boatyard said that  they had removed the horns from their  boats due to complaints of (drunken)  hirers sounding them late  at night.. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ronaldo47
typos