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Are boaters getting more selfish or is it just the world in general


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8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Interesting that the expression "fuckin hell" would be potentially related to someone dying. 

 

 


As you well know, worse things happen at sea.

Edited by nicknorman
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I am still new to this boating lark and have pretty much read all the manuals and done a helmsman course. Being in a marina on the River Trent we have river in either direction and most people are really good and friendly but the main problem seems to be the big GRP cruisers who power up and down the river without considering what the wash does to our little boat. It almost feels like speed bumps on the river when we hit their wash (if only).

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2 hours ago, Steve Buxton said:

I am still new to this boating lark and have pretty much read all the manuals and done a helmsman course. Being in a marina on the River Trent we have river in either direction and most people are really good and friendly but the main problem seems to be the big GRP cruisers who power up and down the river without considering what the wash does to our little boat. It almost feels like speed bumps on the river when we hit their wash (if only).

 

But you can get your own back on GRP cruisers later when they are moored up.....simply attempt to moor up very close to them and look a bit panicked and frantic at the helm while you're doing it, like you are about to loose control of you 10 ton steel narrowboat. Watch the GRP guys frantically jump into action throwing fenders over the side and generally panic. Of course you are not going to crash into them, but they don't know that! 

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10 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

But you can get your own back on GRP cruisers later when they are moored up.....simply attempt to moor up very close to them and look a bit panicked and frantic at the helm while you're doing it, like you are about to loose control of you 10 ton steel narrowboat. Watch the GRP guys frantically jump into action throwing fenders over the side and generally panic. Of course you are not going to crash into them, but they don't know that! 

This reminds me of a trip on a hire boat in 1993. We picked up from Anglo Welsh at Wootton Wawen and headed for Stratford to moor for the night. when we came out of the lock at the bottom of the Stratford canal, on to the Avon, there was one space available on the opposite bank by the park. It was diagonally downstream, not very long and immediately downstream of it was a small GRP cruiser. I had no idea as to the effect the current was going to have, how well the boat would pivot or how effective reverse was but I couldn't just go gently as I knew I had to counter the current, so I had to commit to this manoeuvre one way or another. I had visions of misjudging it and going bow-first into the cruiser, crushing it against the bank! Fortunately we went neatly across and perfectly into the space which must have looked like we knew exactly what we were doing, but that was definitely not the case!

 

Alec

Edited by agg221
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Well not off to a great start today, first bridge with bend the other side, we are virtually into bridge when large Woolwich bow appears on bend. I toot. He is well over to his left to get lined up for the bridge, fair enough it’s big boat. There is plenty of water on my left so I wave my arm  vigorously left showing that I’m going to pass on his left to make life easier for him and turn left a bit. But no, he applies lots of right rudder so we are on a collision course and he is just carrying on - well I’m sure if his enormous bow were to hit us, he would barely notice and certainly wouldn’t care. I then had to apply a lot of power to get out of his way - only just out of the bridge hole, as he carried on with no attempt to change speed or avoid the collision. We missed by inches no thanks to him.

 

I said “ I did signal I was going left because I thought it would be easier for you”. He said “I didn’t know what you meant.” What did he think it might mean? No hint of an apology for nearly ramming us. What an arsehole.

 

I know it doesn’t do to generalise but there do seem to be an above average proportion of entitled obnoxious arseholes driving historic boats, who think they are much more important than everyone else, and everyone else should get out of their way. I think having a enormous bow sticking up must be a compensation for their tiny genitals.

 

Unfortunately I was too traumatised to get the boat name, otherwise I would name and shame.

Edited by nicknorman
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1 hour ago, Steve Buxton said:

Unfortunately at the moment that is my usual method of mooring 🙂

 

 

Happens to all of us. Experience makes it happen less often, but it still happens.....and always when there is a crowd watching.  

 

21 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I know it doesn’t do to generalise but there do seem to be an above average proportion of entitled obnoxious arseholes driving historic boats, who think they are much more important than everyone else, and everyone else should get out of their way.

 

Was he wearing a neckerchief?

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I've only had one "arsehole" encounter, not a historic boat though, just someone who I met on a typically narrow/twisty section of the S&W who didn't manoeuvre to the side of the canal, resulting in myself needing to slam on the brakes instead of driving through an offside bank tree. My sample rate is a bit lower though, so its not possible to conclude yet but I'd say the numbers of arseholes is about the same, so no real change from (say) 5-10 years ago.

 

What I have noticed is the canals seem quieter now, except for certain hotspot areas eg Great Haywood was very busy. Shroppie was very quiet though.

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53 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Where I think I have noticed a change is in the way people want to use boats/canals. When I started boating around 35yrs ago the main purpose appeared to be to go boating. People were generally either fixing their boat so that they could go boating, or going boating. There also appeared to be a lot of general interest in the history of the canals, so that meant the boats, the people, the culture and the infrastructure. Historic boats and surviving boat people from the age of trade had a sort of minor celebrity status at gatherings.

 

There seems to have been a shift away from this. I'm not sure it is that fewer people are interested but perhaps more that the reasons the additional people are attracted to the waterways are different, so there is a dilution. There seem to be more boats which never move and where the owner has no intention of moving, treating it like a static caravan. There are far more boats which move much shorter hours and shorter distances. Hire boating in the 1980s you would get the Four Counties Ring guide or the Cheshire Ring guide and both of these would be recommended as a week's cruising (for a fortnight you might combine the two). Now, if you look at hire companies' recommendations these are seen as a fortnight trip each. There are more people talking about slowing down - very short hours, very slow speeds when actually moving. Last August we took Phoenix out from Norbury for a week. There was another boat went out for the same week which got back at the same time as us and was filled back up with diesel - we had used 95litres, they had used 15. We did the Four Counties plus the Caldon, they went to the bottom of the Shropshire Union and back. There also seems to be less interest in the history. Maybe that's because the boat people are now mostly gone so the oral tradition went with them, but you see far more boats with no signwriting at all, even a transfer, and with that indifference comes an inherent lack of knowledge. The interest seems now to be more in passing through the scenic countryside and enjoying the ecology and the view and places to stop along the way, rather than the experience of travelling the canal itself.

 

The owner of a historic boat can easily be an 'entitled' arsehole, but equally the owner of a modern, shallow-drafted boat who wants to do 2mph may not have taken the trouble to understand that whilst they can easily vary speed with their high-revving modern engine and Morse controller the ancient, scruffy lump behind them is winding around in the channel due to draft and because it has a slow revving, high torque engine and rod and wheel control it is actually very difficult for them to slow down any more, so they are not being pushy, they are actually struggling to not hit the very slow boat ahead (Nick, that is not what I am suggesting was your experience this morning). From my own experience, because we are a short, low boat people have no idea that we draw over 3' and my engine won't just rev up and down instantly, and engaging reverse too quickly will probably damage something so I am planning ahead. It's like driving a vintage car without servo brakes - you can plan ahead but you need other people to understand that you can't react like they can. It would sometimes help if people engaged brain and took the trouble to understand a situation before they got worked up about it.

 

On the other hand, the overwhelming number of comments we get are cheerful and friendly, even when we have slightly inconvenienced someone because we can't stop or manoeuvre as fast as they can.

 

Alec

I agree with much of that. On the historic boat thing though, whilst I appreciate such boats are less manoeuvrable, I think it is mostly up to the steerer to compensate for that by eg not approaching blind corners and bridges at a speed where they are effectively out of control, rather than requiring everyone else to get out of their way.

 

Actually today’s event was as much about the demeanour of the steerer as it was about how he steered. And a bit worrying that someone in charge of such a big lump is unaware that sometimes it’s prudent to pass on the “wrong side”, and the signalling that goes with it - albeit informal signalling.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Well not off to a great start today, first bridge with bend the other side, we are virtually into bridge when large Woolwich bow appears on bend. I toot. He is well over to his left to get lined up for the bridge, fair enough it’s big boat. There is plenty of water on my left so I wave my arm  vigorously left showing that I’m going to pass on his left to make life easier for him and turn left a bit. But no, he applies lots of right rudder so we are on a collision course and he is just carrying on - well I’m sure if his enormous bow were to hit us, he would barely notice and certainly wouldn’t care. I then had to apply a lot of power to get out of his way - only just out of the bridge hole, as he carried on with no attempt to change speed or avoid the collision. We missed by inches no thanks to him.

 

I said “ I did signal I was going left because I thought it would be easier for you”. He said “I didn’t know what you meant.” What did he think it might mean? No hint of an apology for nearly ramming us. What an arsehole.

 

I know it doesn’t do to generalise but there do seem to be an above average proportion of entitled obnoxious arseholes driving historic boats, who think they are much more important than everyone else, and everyone else should get out of their way. I think having a enormous bow sticking up must be a compensation for their tiny genitals.

 

Unfortunately I was too traumatised to get the boat name, otherwise I would name and shame.

I find vigorous waving confusing and ignore it.

”didn’t you see my vigorous waving?” I get asked.

”yes, and you looked like a crazy monkey so I ignored you”

 

 

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Just now, Goliath said:

I find vigorous waving confusing and ignore it.

”didn’t you see my vigorous waving?” I get asked.

”yes, and you looked like a crazy monkey so I ignored you”

 

Perhaps “vigorous waving” doesn’t describe it well, but I think you probably knew what I meant. Holding my left arm out fully extended and horizontal, and repeating the action a couple of times. But maybe you are the sort of person who is not interested in anyone else’s intentions - your own intentions in isolation is all that matters? Do you have a boat with an enormous bow?

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6 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I find vigorous waving confusing and ignore it.

”didn’t you see my vigorous waving?” I get asked.

”yes, and you looked like a crazy monkey so I ignored you”

 

 

 

Do you ignore appropriate horn (sound) signals in this situation?

 

What would the horn signals be?

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5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I find vigorous waving confusing and ignore it.

”didn’t you see my vigorous waving?” I get asked.

”yes, and you looked like a crazy monkey so I ignored you”

 

 

 

I agree. 

 

Had Nick used the correct sound signal he would have been understood, but he doesn't mention it. 

 

I too have been signalled at with arm signals in a similar way and got it wrong. An arm pointing to one side could be taken as either "I am going to steer to this side", OR "I require you to steer to this side". Best ignored.

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2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Do you ignore appropriate horn (sound) signals in this situation?

 

What would the horn signals be?

 

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Do you ignore appropriate horn (sound) signals in this situation?

 

What would the horn signals be?

Boaters NEVER use appropriate horn signals. 

But I think 2 quick hoots would have been the appropriate signal?

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I too have been signalled at with arm signals in a similar way and got it wrong. An arm pointing to one side could be taken as either "I am going to steer to this side", OR "I require you to steer to this side". Best ignored.

Exactly that 

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If I recall the ME generation was a child of the 1980's. The USE IT and then "Abandon it" culture that was seen in the dropping of litter on the streets and canal banks and has continued to the present day with these electric scooter trials in places like Birmingham. I saw one abandoned across the access to the towpath recently which made it difficult to get past it.

 

For those who navigate canals these days through Birmingham, has any body had any problems with the GO BOATS based at Brindley Place. These craft do not seem to have much use at present, and the hour charge is quite high, but there is a potential for the inexperienced handler (I resist to the concept that they are boaters ) could selfishly obstruct other craft. 

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3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I agree. 

 

Had Nick used the correct sound signal he would have been understood, but he doesn't mention it. 

 

I too have been signalled at with arm signals in a similar way and got it wrong. An arm pointing to one side could be taken as either "I am going to steer to this side", OR "I require you to steer to this side". Best ignored.

I usually point at myself and then the direction I'm intending to go. Not sure it helps but at least it shows I'm aware there's a possibility of a bump!

Horn signals are useless, partly gecause no-one understands them apart from the announcement that one exists and partly because 80% of boaters are old, deaf, and couldn't hear anything over the engine noise even if they weren't.

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1 minute ago, Heartland said:

If I recall the ME generation was a child of the 1980's. The USE IT and then "Abandon it" culture that was seen in the dropping of litter on the streets and canal banks and has continued to the present day with these electric scooter trials in places like Birmingham. I saw one abandoned across the access to the towpath recently which made it difficult to get past it.

 

For those who navigate canals these days through Birmingham, has any body had any problems with the GO BOATS based at Brindley Place. These craft do not seem to have much use at present, and the hour charge is quite high, but there is a potential for the inexperienced handler (I resist to the concept that they are boaters ) could selfishly obstruct other craft. 

There were plenty of Go Boats out last Saturday, I think it was them that weren't very happy when I had Scorpio, Leo and Swift three a breast outside the Roundhouse.  Mostly seemed to be groups drinking whilst pottering along in the Go Boats 

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5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I agree. 

 

Had Nick used the correct sound signal he would have been understood, but he doesn't mention it. 

 

I too have been signalled at with arm signals in a similar way and got it wrong. An arm pointing to one side could be taken as either "I am going to steer to this side", OR "I require you to steer to this side". Best ignored.


I think it comes back to the thread subject. A few decades ago, no-one would have contemplated telling other people what to do. But now in the age of entitlement it is commonplace. So you are to an extent right, whilst personally I would never gesticulate to tell someone else what to do with their boat, no doubt some others would. But then again, since the default is to pass on the right, what would be the point of a signal stating normal practice?

 

No I didn’t use sound signals, in part because 75% of boaters don’t know what they mean and also because that takes time and attention (to look down and locate the button) when in this circumstance there wasn’t enough time and all my attention was needed on manoeuvring our boat out of his way.

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I recently had a boat coming straight at me, it was another widebeam with wheel steering, the owner a lady it turns out was nowhere to be seen. The issue was it was windy and the boats direction had changed with the owner oblivious, it was also going quickly, in the end she popped up in response to my continued horn blasting out, applied more power and just missed me! She was a total arsehole and with luck will wreck her boat without damaging anyone else!

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16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Perhaps “vigorous waving” doesn’t describe it well, but I think you probably knew what I meant. Holding my left arm out fully extended and horizontal, and repeating the action a couple of times. But maybe you are the sort of person who is not interested in anyone else’s intentions - your own intentions in isolation is all that matters? Do you have a boat with an enormous bow?

Keep to the right.

Simple.

 

Sounds like you put your boat across to the left then struggled to get back on to the right?

If you had just stayed to the right 🤷‍♀️
I think your keenness to be helpful may have proved unhelpful.

Dunno, weren’t there. 
Don’t really care.

 

Enjoy


 

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3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Keep to the right.

Simple.

 

Sounds like you put your boat across to the left then struggled to get back on to the right?

If you had just stayed to the right 🤷‍♀️
I think your keenness to be helpful may have proved unhelpful.

Dunno, weren’t there. 
Don’t really care.

 

Enjoy
 

You are kind of right, but the trigger event was a large bow appearing around a blind bend on the wrong side of the canal and going at a fair lick.

So is it your view that there are no circumstances under which boats could or should ever pass on the “wrong” side?

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I have found that if an oncoming boat signals by waving an arm I am never sure if he is telling me what he is going to do or what he wants me to do. After this happened to me, if I need to signal my intentions to another boat I make big arm movements and point to me then to the direction I am going to go. If I want him to take any action I point to him and indicate which side. After a pause, I repeat the arm action till I get an acknowledgement .

It works every time but I still see an oncoming boater pointing to the right or left and I have no idea what they mean .

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3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:


I think it comes back to the thread subject. A few decades ago, no-one would have contemplated telling other people what to do. But now in the age of entitlement it is commonplace. So you are to an extent right, whilst personally I would never gesticulate to tell someone else what to do with their boat, no doubt some others would. But then again, since the default is to pass on the right, what would be the point of a signal stating normal practice?

 

No I didn’t use sound signals, in part because 75% of boaters don’t know what they mean and also because that takes time and attention (to look down and locate the button) when in this circumstance there wasn’t enough time and all my attention was needed on manoeuvring our boat out of his way.

I think therein lies some of the problem. -You- would not gesticulate to tell someone else what to do; -someone else- might do, so the steerer is trying to interpret whether you are helpfully telling them what you are going to do, or angrily trying to tell them what to do.

 

On the point of steering big, heavy boats, it isn't always straightforward. When you are approaching a bridge on a sharp corner you don't have a lot of room to play with, particularly when the available channel is considerably narrower than the surface water, so sometimes you have to put on some revs to make the turn. Even if you were going pretty slowly to start with this does have the consequence of meaning you are now going faster than you might ideally like to be. If you are heavy you don't stop easily, and winding the revs back down, letting the engine settle and then going in to reverse does take time, so sometimes you cross your fingers and hope as you go for it, being ready to react if you are wrong, but it doesn't always go to plan.

 

However, I am entirely with you that, given the above, recognising that you might sometimes unintentionally end up in the wrong and being polite and apologising afterwards when passing is the mark of someone decent and failure to do so is generally the mark of an arsehole.

 

Alec

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