Who are the elite boat builders?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

You've put your finger right on it there. It is an unnecessary risk to have anyone on board the boat in a lock in my personal opinion. Plenty of people have been drowned in boats in locks, the worst case being the loss of four disabled people trapped inside the boat DRUM MAJOR.

 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/contact-and-sinking-of-narrow-boat-drum-major-while-descending-in-steg-neck-lock-on-the-leeds-and-liverpool-canal-near-gargrave-england-with-loss-of-4-lives

 

I always get off the boat in locks because the last place you need to be if the boat gets in trouble in the lock is on the boat. What chance do you have of dropping the paddles if you are standing at the helm? None whatsover.

 

Even if there are plenty of people (especially if) milling about bankside, getting their attention can be really difficult in a hurry when a dangerous situation is developing.  DAMHIK.

 

 

 

Interesting observation. I was going to reference that incident much earlier in the thread but then remembered that it was a culmination of some very unusual circumstances resulting in a rare event. 

 

So where are the other examples of 'plenty of people drowning in boats in locks'?

 

Plenty of sinkings in locks seem to abound, but people drowning in the process?

 

Examples please.

[Jon57]

12 hours ago, nicknorman said:

But what happens when you have a row, you can't have one person sulking in the well deck whilst the other person sulks at the back driving?

Boat man cabin is always an option. Man cave next to the old thumper. Not the wife by the way.😜

[Rob-M]

28 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Interesting observation. I was going to reference that incident much earlier in the thread but then remembered that it was a culmination of some very unusual circumstances resulting in a rare event. 

 

So where are the other examples of 'plenty of people drowning in boats in locks'?

 

Plenty of sinkings in locks seem to abound, but people drowning in the process?

 

Examples please.

Alan Green drowned in the cabin of his boat when it got caught in a lock on the Droitwich.

 

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/boats/drowning-of-boater-on-the-droitwich-was-an-accident-6266880/

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Alan Green drowned in the cabin of his boat when it got caught in a lock on the Droitwich.

 

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/boats/drowning-of-boater-on-the-droitwich-was-an-accident-6266880/

 

 

The boilerman said 'plenty'.

 

And going back in to a sinking boat rather than being trapped in it from the off is not what is under discussion here.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[koukouvagia]

14 hours ago, David Mack said:

For a craft that is used almost entirely on relatively narrow and shallow waterways, it is often easier for a MOB to get out onto the bank than to try to reboard the boat.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.  In the past few years I have witnessed two people falling in the canal at Cowroast near the lock - one from a boat and one one from an upturned canoe.  In neither case could the person get out of the water via the bank, despite being assisted by their crew.  Fortunately, I keep a ladder on our mooring.  I'm not sure how one of the persons who was, shall we say, somewhat portly, would ever have managed to get out of the water without the ladder.

[David Mack]

20 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

Up to a point, Lord Copper.  In the past few years I have witnessed two people falling in the canal at Cowroast near the lock - one from a boat and one one from an upturned canoe.  In neither case could the person get out of the water via the bank, despite being assisted by their crew.  Fortunately, I keep a ladder on our mooring.  I'm not sure how one of the persons who was, shall we say, somewhat portly, would ever have managed to get out of the water without the ladder.

But would either of those individuals have been able to board a modern narrow boat with a RCD-compliant reboarding step?

[cuthound]

On 04/07/2022 at 18:33, IanD said:

 

Side hatches as an emergency exit do comply with the BSS regulations, here is the relevant page -- note the green tick and the statement highlighted in the text.

 

Your concerns about what might happen in a lock are also noted in the regulations as a warning to boaters, but this does not mean BSS non-compliance.

 

An Houdini hatch in the deck head would provide an alternative exit route thst could be used in the event of a sinking in a narrow lock  without spoiling the looks of your boat.

[cuthound]

A alternative stern the OP may wish to consider is a trad with a wide hatch, which combines the advantages of a trad with that of a semi-trad.

 

Mine can accommodate up to three people whilst cruising. 

 

As always, not for everyone, but with semi-trads  the bench seating is almost unusable because of the angle caused by the tumblehome of the cabinside.

 

A normal trad can be converted to a wide hatch relatively cheaply.

 

 

[IanD]

17 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

An Houdini hatch in the deck head would provide an alternative exit route thst could be used in the event of a sinking in a narrow lock  without spoiling the looks of your boat.

Perhaps, but I don't like Houdini hatches (looks, condensation drips), the roof is mostly covered in solar panels -- and as I keep saying, I'm perfectly happy with the side doors as an emergency exit, as is the BSS 🙂

 

Anyone genuinely worried about the (extremely small) risk of their boat sinking in a narrow lock in a way that meant they needed to get out of side doors but couldn't might also want to think about things which are many *many* times more likely to kill them -- so don't drive to your boat (car crashes), don't cycle to get the shopping (cyclist deaths), don't cross the road to get to the pub (pedestrian deaths) -- and when you get there (or on the boat) don't eat any peanuts or anything chewy (risk of choking to death)... 😉

Edited July 6, 2022 by IanD

[Tonka]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

Perhaps, but I don't like Houdini hatches (looks, condensation drips), the roof is mostly covered in solar panels -- and as I keep saying, I'm perfectly happy with the side doors as an emergency exit, as is the BSS 🙂

 

Anyone genuinely worried about the (extremely small) risk of their boat sinking in a narrow lock in a way that meant they needed to get out of side doors but couldn't might also want to think about things which are many *many* times more likely to kill them -- so don't drive to your boat (car crashes), don't cycle to get the shopping (cyclist deaths), don't cross the road to get to the pub (pedestrian deaths) -- and when you get there (or on the boat) don't eat any peanuts or anything chewy (risk of choking to death)... 😉

Where do you store the bow anchor, when not needed and ready when you do need it.

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Where do you store the bow anchor, when not needed and ready when you do need it.

At the stern, where it would also be deployed from if ever needed -- which again is unlikely...

 

In theory it could also sit on top of the potter's cabin at the bows, but then you'd have to get there in a hurry and deploy it from the small bow deck -- much safer to do it from the stern. Bear in mind this isn't an ocean-going vessel which needs to anchor regularly, if something ever goes wrong on a river (e.g. loss of power) then you could be going upstream or downstream so the odds of the anchor being at the "right" (upstream) end are 50:50, and if you deploy from the "wrong" end the boat will swing round.

 

You could say this is not ideal, my response would be that very few boaters on narrowboats ever have to deploy an anchor in an emergency over their entire boating career, and it's more important to have one that's suitable for the boat (probably a Fortress) and be able to deploy it safely -- in my case, from the stern -- than worry too much about which end of the boat it's at.

 

No doubt Alan or someone else with a lot of maritime experience will come along to tell me this is all wrong, but then I'm not going to be regularly mooring a yacht off a rocky lee shore in a gale... 😉

Edited July 6, 2022 by IanD

[magnetman]

A narrow boat anchored from the stern in a tidway with 3 knots of water running and other craft creating wash might be a bit naughty. The rudder would pull over to one side and cause problems. 

 

Thinking of the pool of London as an example. Actually not just thinking about it but I am also sitting and watching it at the moment. You do NOT want to be stern on at anchor. 

 

I'd rather have the anchor on the bows and a clear way to get through the boat to deploy it. 

 

If you do need it then it's unlikely you will need it in the blink of an eye, and if you hurry or panic then you are screwed. Better to spend a bit of time passing through the cabin then chuck the anchor in when you get to it. 

 

Anchor at stern is well dodgy. Handy to have in addition and in some situations could be useful as an additional braking device if drifting towards a weir or a bridge but not as the main anchor. 

 

If you don't have space or access right at the front then lead the chain back and put it somewhere you can get to it. Or mount it on a slide of some sort with a pin connected to a rope or a phone app actuated solenoid. 

 

Or just don't have an anchor. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by magnetman

[IanD]

54 minutes ago, magnetman said:

A narrow boat anchored from the stern in a tidway with 3 knots of water running and other craft creating wash might be a bit naughty. The rudder would pull over to one side and cause problems. 

 

Thinking of the pool of London as an example. Actually not just thinking about it but I am also sitting and watching it at the moment. You do NOT want to be stern on at anchor. 

 

I'd rather have the anchor on the bows and a clear way to get through the boat to deploy it. 

 

If you do need it then it's unlikely you will need it in the blink of an eye, and if you hurry or panic then you are screwed. Better to spend a bit of time passing through the cabin then chuck the anchor in when you get to it. 

 

Anchor at stern is well dodgy. Handy to have in addition and in some situations could be useful as an additional braking device if drifting towards a weir or a bridge but not as the main anchor. 

 

If you don't have space or access right at the front then lead the chain back and put it somewhere you can get to it. Or mount it on a slide of some sort with a pin connected to a rope or a phone app actuated solenoid. 

 

Or just don't have an anchor.

 

 

Like I said, the only case I would ever anticipate possibly needing an anchor would be engine failure on a river (e.g. Trent, Ribble Crossing) -- I've never moored at anchor in a tideway and have no intention of ever doing so. If drifting towards a weir or bridge with no power then there's only one anchor, it's not an "additional braking device", and in this case it makes little difference which end it's at, and you *do* need to deploy it quickly.

 

And should this ever happen, having one is still *far* better than having none...

 

Yes if you spend a lot of time moored up in rivers or tideways or estuaries (like you?) then a better solution might be needed -- logically, bow *and* stern anchors. But that's simply not the case here... 😉

Edited July 6, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

a better solution might be needed -- logically, bow *and* stern anchors. But that's simply not the case here... 😉

 

It is not a case of having differing anchors for bow and stern - it is reasons behind why you should not anchor off the stern.

 

You would only have a kedge if you have already deployed and set the bower anchor.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It is not a case of having differing anchors for bow and stern - it is reasons behind why you should not anchor off the stern.

 

You would only have a kedge if you have already deployed and set the bower anchor.

I'm not sure most narrowboaters would have a clue what kedge and bower anchors are, all they want/need is something they can chuck overboard in a rare (maybe never) emergency like an engine failure on a river.

 

I know you've said many times that people should not only have a high-holding-power anchor but know how to deploy it and even practise the same, but in reality most narrowboats have a Danforth (with too short/light chain/rope) in the bows which has never been used and probably never will be, and which might -- as you point out repeatedly -- not even do the job if it's ever needed.

 

Compared to that a Fortress 37 in the stern with the recommended chain and rope (my solution) is likely to be a lot better, even if it doesn't meet with the high standards of perfection of grizzled mariners like you 😉

[Guest]

Deploying an anchor from the stern of a narrowboat in a fast flowing waterway will draw the stern down closer to the surface and risks the level over topping the engine bay vents (on boats that have them).

 

(Dual fuel boats may of course not)

[IanD]

41 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Deploying an anchor from the stern of a narrowboat in a fast flowing waterway will draw the stern down closer to the surface and risks the level over topping the engine bay vents (on boats that have them).

 

(Dual fuel boats may of course not)

No vents on mine... 😉

 

Note that I'm not saying that what I'm proposing is the right solution for everyone, just that it is for me -- on a boat that's rather different to the norm...

Edited July 6, 2022 by IanD

[Guest]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

No vents on mine... 😉

 

As I suspected.

 

However the point is valid when considering the common arrangement where single fuel not dual fuel boats normally have them.