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On 02/07/2022 at 23:32, IanD said:

The most common problem by far is getting the stern hung up on the cill when going down -- in which case the bow sinks first, so you escape via the stern, so the forward side doors are irrelevant...

Or, if you are in the bow cabin when the boat starts sinking, you aim for the nearest exit, rather than trying to go through the full length of the cabin.

And it's not just in locks. Suppose you are breasted up against a boat whose gunwale is a few inches higher than yours, when fire breaks out. Or moored against a particularly high wall. The side doors can no longer be opened.

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5 hours ago, David Mack said:

Or, if you are in the bow cabin when the boat starts sinking, you aim for the nearest exit, rather than trying to go through the full length of the cabin.

And it's not just in locks. Suppose you are breasted up against a boat whose gunwale is a few inches higher than yours, when fire breaks out. Or moored against a particularly high wall. The side doors can no longer be opened.

It's always possible to come up with rare "what-if" cases where something doesn't work.

 

The front side doors are in the bow cabin (bedroom), and many other boats have the same arrangement which meets the safety regulations.

 

AFAIK the cases you "suppose" about have never occurred, the ones that I mentioned where such doors would work as an emergency exit have occurred many times.

 

I'm happy that they're safe, and meet the rules about emergency exits. If you think otherwise, you can do something different on your boat.

Edited by IanD
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21 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's always possible to come up with rare "what-if" cases where something doesn't work.

 

The front side doors are in the bow cabin (bedroom), and many other boats have the same arrangement which meets the safety regulations.

 

AFAIK the cases you "suppose" about have never occurred, the ones that I mentioned where such doors would work as an emergency exit have occurred many times.

 

I'm happy that they're safe, and meet the rules about emergency exits. If you think otherwise, you can do something different on your boat.


I seem to recall that this boat you are having built is the first boat you will have owned? In which case you are in exactly the same position as the OP and the other chap asking about new boats. Just rather more dogmatic about it! For the avoidance of doubt, can you tell us if you have ever lived with a boat with such an arrangement, or is it something you just like the idea of in theory?

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8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:


I seem to recall that this boat you are having built is the first boat you will have owned? In which case you are in exactly the same position as the OP and the other chap asking about new boats. Just rather more dogmatic about it! For the avoidance of doubt, can you tell us if you have ever lived with a boat with such an arrangement, or is it something you just like the idea of in theory?

Well murfeys law 2. We have front and rear access, 4 side doors, 2 with eyebrows hatches, 1 very large dog box. Also a ejector seat with a parachute. What could possibly go wrong. 💺😁

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No ejector seat really, but joking aside its as good as it gets. Also have a full size bed at the bow which is great, plenty or room to move about. Even better when nature calls during the night. No need to climb over the wife and disturb the crew. 😁

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:


I seem to recall that this boat you are having built is the first boat you will have owned? In which case you are in exactly the same position as the OP and the other chap asking about new boats. Just rather more dogmatic about it! For the avoidance of doubt, can you tell us if you have ever lived with a boat with such an arrangement, or is it something you just like the idea of in theory?

Yes it's the first boat I will have owned. But I've spent perhaps six months or so in total on many different hire/owned boats with probably all the layouts you can think of over the last 40+ years (including side doors and side hatches), and covered almost the entire canal system in the process, some of it multiple times, and had a few close shaves in the process -- usually in locks, no surprise there.

 

In all that time I've found out a lot about what works and doesn't *for me* -- other people have different preferences (e.g. trad stern, engine room, cross-beds, wood stove) and that's fine for them. I'm well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of different narrowboat layouts, and that none is perfect... 😉

Edited by IanD
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49 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

No ejector seat really, but joking aside its as good as it gets. Also have a full size bed at the bow which is great, plenty or room to move about. Even better when nature calls during the night. No need to climb over the wife and disturb the crew. 😁

 

I've tried full-size (5' wide) beds -- both lengthwise in the bow and drop-down cross-beds -- and don't like them. The one in the bows is great once you're in, but not so easy to get in and out of, especially when carrying two pint mugs of tea and a couple of choccy bikkies. A cross-bed means one sleeper has to climb over the feet of the other to get to the toilet in the night. You only find things out like this by trying them...

 

So I've gone for a 4'6" wide bed lengthways, with a walkway down the side and across the foot. Not quite as comfy as a 5' wide bed, but I prefer to have the better access. YMMV... 😉

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53 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

No ejector seat really, but joking aside its as good as it gets. Also have a full size bed at the bow which is great, plenty or room to move about. Even better when nature calls during the night. No need to climb over the wife and disturb the crew. 😁

But what happens when you have a row, you can't have one person sulking in the well deck whilst the other person sulks at the back driving?

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14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But what happens when you have a row, you can't have one person sulking in the well deck whilst the other person sulks at the back driving?

No well deck on mine, so the non-steering sulker can sit in the dinette with the side doors open and a G&T, or lounge on the sofa in the saloon... 😉

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

It's always possible to come up with rare "what-if" cases where something doesn't work.

One of the most regularly reported types of incident is of a narrowboat sinking in a lock, due either to a cilling when descending, or when ascending, getting the boat caught under a gate beam/projecting masonry or a rudder blade or trailing rope getting caught between bottom gates. The BSS requires two points of escape from every cabin. So to my mind having a situation where all but one of the exits from a cabin would be rendered unusable in one of the most likely accident scenarios (narrow boat sinking in a narrow lock) should be a BSS failure.

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11 hours ago, IanD said:

Which is why I have access at both ends, and three sets of side doors (plus the stern doors) which can be opened for ventilation -- see picture on previous page... 😉

 

I am struggling to find an illustration of your new boat which shows what I would call access at the front end, unless you are referring to the unglazed "window" which does not have a hinged or sliding hatch. If that is the "access", does it have a ladder inside, or do you have to be a gymnast to get in and out?

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

One of the most regularly reported types of incident is of a narrowboat sinking in a lock, due either to a cilling when descending, or when ascending, getting the boat caught under a gate beam/projecting masonry or a rudder blade or trailing rope getting caught between bottom gates. The BSS requires two points of escape from every cabin. So to my mind having a situation where all but one of the exits from a cabin would be rendered unusable in one of the most likely accident scenarios (narrow boat sinking in a narrow lock) should be a BSS failure.

 

But it's not. I'm not trying to impose my opinion on you -- and I'm happy that my boat will be safe -- but you're trying to impose your opinion on me... 😉

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

But it's not. I'm not trying to impose my opinion on you -- and I'm happy that my boat will be safe -- but you're trying to impose your opinion on me... 😉

No I'm not. I'm suggesting that your proposed layout does not comply with the BSS requirements. Although I accept that you will find many other boats out there which are similarly non-compliant.

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Just now, David Schweizer said:

 

I am struggling to find an illustration of your new boat which shows what I would call access at the front end, unless you are referring to the unglazed "window" which does not have a hinged or sliding hatch. If that is the "access", does it have a ladder inside, or do you have to be a gymnast to get in and out?

 

The side doors will be glazed (windows just haven't been cut out yet), and there will be steps/ladder inside. It'll be easier to get out of (and bigger) than an emergency opening window, which is also allowed by BSS regulation. It's not intended for routine access in/out of the boat, which is why there's no hinged or sliding hatch above it.

 

Plenty of boats do exactly this with no apparent safety problem or resulting deaths, see attached...

 

flutterby.jpg.0723bc8a0e2af671b2a8d095d94f6aac.jpg

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No I'm not. I'm suggesting that your proposed layout does not comply with the BSS requirements. Although I accept that you will find many other boats out there which are similarly non-compliant.

That's funny, because exactly this case (side exit) is shown as an example of a compliant layout in the BSS regulations... 😉

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IMG-20220605-WA0017.jpg.221492fe1104d3c56e1042a380bf55ce.jpg

 

One of the drawbacks of a conversion such as this is that there is only a very limited space (about 10’) for a crew member to get on and off.  Neither I nor my wife are going to go leaping along the top plank; the hatch in the forecabin and the sliding windows are there mainly as escape routes; the gunwales are non-existent on the back cabin and very narrow along the rest of the boat; and clambering onto the back is awkward because of the limited space and the ellum.

That said, we never have any difficulty, it just means that I have to be extra careful, for example, when going out of a downhill lock to line up the 10’ gap in front of the back cabin carefully, so that the crew can step on.

It’s all a question of knowing your boat and how to handle it.  I’m sure the OP will soon get the hang of things, no matter what the design is.

(I should perhaps add that the hydraulic motor in the ellum does act as a huge outboard and enables me to glide into the towpath sideways).

As an aside, our butty was made by Braithwaite and Kirk in 1911.  They, like Springers, were more at home building storage tanks, but they managed to turn out 24 butty-boats which swam beautifully.  So, in my book, they count as an elite builder :).

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4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I've tried full-size (5' wide) beds -- both lengthwise in the bow and drop-down cross-beds -- and don't like them. The one in the bows is great once you're in, but not so easy to get in and out of, especially when carrying two pint mugs of tea and a couple of choccy bikkies. A cross-bed means one sleeper has to climb over the feet of the other to get to the toilet in the night. You only find things out like this by trying them...

 

So I've gone for a 4'6" wide bed lengthways, with a walkway down the side and across the foot. Not quite as comfy as a 5' wide bed, but I prefer to have the better access. YMMV... 😉

Mine is length wise. Could even be a king-size. No need 2 disturb other half. Let sleeping dragons lie. 😁

Just now, Jon57 said:

Mine is length wise. Could even be a king-size. No need 2 disturb other half. Let sleeping dragons lie. 😁

Also permanent made up. And we can sit up in bed if needed b. But it's a bed not a bedroom. 

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7 hours ago, David Mack said:

One of the most regularly reported types of incident is of a narrowboat sinking in a lock, due either to a cilling when descending, or when ascending, getting the boat caught under a gate beam/projecting masonry or a rudder blade or trailing rope getting caught between bottom gates. The BSS requires two points of escape from every cabin. So to my mind having a situation where all but one of the exits from a cabin would be rendered unusable in one of the most likely accident scenarios (narrow boat sinking in a narrow lock) should be a BSS failure.

That makes sense and very good points.
 

It seems the only solution in that scenario is the doors fore and aft, and hatches. Hatches create a problem of actually exiting them. On my trawler, the required hatch off the stateroom in the bow has an escape hatch that functions as a skylight. It has a ladder that can be attached.  The likelihood of being able to use this in an emergency appears to me to be low especially with power failure at night.  There is a forward collision chamber but I think the real emergency would be a fire and smoke coming from the engine below the saloon floor blocking the normal egress.  I don’t think we can engineer for all alternatives.  For designers of life rafts, for example, it’s almost impossible to climb up a rope ladder into them as the ladder molds to the shape of the hull. We are getting older, not as nimble, and in my case the water is very cold. Same with getting someone back on board that goes overboard. It’s very very difficult.  In cold waters you have to assume in the optimistic 1 or 2 minutes to return and locate and come aside the MOB that person is less responsive due to the cold. I have a swim deck, staples, boarding ladder, but lifting someone 180lbs plus up?  Life slings. Winches. All have been proposed but the only real solution is to prevent the overboard event itself. 

 

it seems prudent not to have people in areas of the NB that couldn’t exit via the top while in a narrow lock.  That either leaves just the helmsperson or perhaps someone in the bow outside? 
 

 

 

 

Edited by Trawler
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20 minutes ago, Trawler said:

That makes sense and very good points.
 

It seems the only solution in that scenario is the doors fore and aft, and hatches. Hatches create a problem of actually exiting them. On my trawler, the required hatch off the stateroom in the bow has an escape hatch that functions as a skylight. It has a ladder that can be attached.  The likelihood of being able to use this in an emergency appears to me to be low especially with power failure at night.  There is a forward collision chamber but I think the real emergency would be a fire and smoke coming from the engine below the saloon floor blocking the normal egress.  I don’t think we can engineer for all alternatives.  For designers of life rafts, for example, it’s almost impossible to climb up a rope ladder into them as the ladder molds to the shape of the hull. We are getting older, not as nimble, and in my case the water is very cold. Same with getting someone back on board that goes overboard. It’s very very difficult.  In cold waters you have to assume in the optimistic 1 or 2 minutes to return and locate and come aside the MOB that person is less responsive due to the cold. I have a swim deck, staples, boarding ladder, but lifting someone 180lbs plus up?  Life slings. Winches. All have been proposed but the only real solution is to prevent the overboard event itself. 

 

it seems prudent not to have people in areas of the NB that couldn’t exit via the top while in a narrow lock.  That either leaves just the helmsperson or perhaps someone in the bow outside? 
 

 

 

 

So how do tripboats go through narrow locks 

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16 minutes ago, Trawler said:

but lifting someone 180lbs plus up?  Life slings. Winches.

 

On sailing boats it is fairly simple - swing the boom out, MoB slides into the horseshoe, wind the winch, swing boom inboard . MoB now back on board.

 

In Europe (and the UK) it is a legal requirement that all 'recreational' boats must have a system for a MoB to be able to reboard the boat themselves - we don't quite get the same water temperatures that you do In Canada, but last 'summer' the wife almost got hypothermia after 30 minutes in the water clearing a rope off one of the props

 

Extract from the RCR / RCD :

 

2.3 Protection from falling overboard and means of reboarding Watercraft shall be designed to minimise the risks of falling overboard and to facilitate reboarding. Means of reboarding shall be accessible to or deployable by a person in the water unaided.

 

A few years ago a narrowboat builder ended up in court for failing to comply with some of the RCD / RCR requirements - the 'method of boarding' was one of them - he was found guilty on several counts.

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7 hours ago, David Mack said:

No I'm not. I'm suggesting that your proposed layout does not comply with the BSS requirements. Although I accept that you will find many other boats out there which are similarly non-compliant.

 

Side hatches as an emergency exit do comply with the BSS regulations, here is the relevant page -- note the green tick and the statement highlighted in the text.

 

Your concerns about what might happen in a lock are also noted in the regulations as a warning to boaters, but this does not mean BSS non-compliance.

BSS escape routes.png

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6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

For a craft that is used almost entirely on relatively narrow and shallow waterways, it is often easier for a MOB to get out onto the bank than to try to reboard the boat.

That of course is the right answer. 
 

Incidentally, in cold water there is only a 50/50 chance of making it 50’ to shore. Hypothermia is real. Again, not a canal problem. 

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Side hatches as an emergency exit do comply with the BSS regulations, here is the relevant page -- note the green tick and the statement highlighted in the text.

 

Your concerns about what might happen in a lock are also noted in the regulations as a warning to boaters, but this does not mean BSS non-compliance.

BSS escape routes.png

Ian, I had read his post as the BSS missing the most likEly scenario of narrow locks where you couldn’t get through the side hatches in their regulations  not that they didn’t meet them requirements? 
 

anyway, I have diverted enough attention while I am waiting for my son to wake up. 

Edited by Trawler
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16 minutes ago, Trawler said:

That of course is the right answer. 
 

Incidentally, in cold water there is only a 50/50 chance of making it 50’ to shore. Hypothermia is real. Again, not a canal problem. 

Ian, I had read his post as the BSS missing the most likEly scenario of narrow locks where you couldn’t get through the side hatches in their regulations  not that they didn’t meet them requirements? 
 

anyway, I have diverted enough attention while I am waiting for my son to wake up. 

 

Nope, he said that such a layout was non-compliant, and that's incorrect.

 

And the BSS does not miss the potential risk with side doors in narrow locks, it specifically points this out -- but nevertheless side hatches are an approved emergency exit.

 

Presumably whoever drafted the rules is aware that by far the most likely reason for needing an emergency exit is a fire (or similar) when moored (for which side doors are fine), and that in locks the most common emergency is catching the stern on the cill and going down by the bows (so exiting at the stern is OK). Disallowing side doors as an exit would suddenly mean lots of boats already out there would fail their BSS which would cause a massive uproar, especially if there is little or no evidence that this would save any lives in reality.

 

If David wants something different on his boat then that's his decision, but the BSS rules don't require it and many people -- me included -- are OK with that.

Edited by IanD
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3 hours ago, Trawler said:

it seems prudent not to have people in areas of the NB that couldn’t exit via the top while in a narrow lock.

 

 

You've put your finger right on it there. It is an unnecessary risk to have anyone on board the boat in a lock in my personal opinion. Plenty of people have been drowned in boats in locks, the worst case being the loss of four disabled people trapped inside the boat DRUM MAJOR.

 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/contact-and-sinking-of-narrow-boat-drum-major-while-descending-in-steg-neck-lock-on-the-leeds-and-liverpool-canal-near-gargrave-england-with-loss-of-4-lives

 

I always get off the boat in locks because the last place you need to be if the boat gets in trouble in the lock is on the boat. What chance do you have of dropping the paddles if you are standing at the helm? None whatsover.

 

Even if there are plenty of people (especially if) milling about bankside, getting their attention can be really difficult in a hurry when a dangerous situation is developing.  DAMHIK.

 

 

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