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New to Boat life - already unhappy with the CRT


DShK

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12 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Which is exactly what CRT have already told boaters. They don't need boaters to display licenses, just the reg number and they won't be enforcing the redundant regulation.

 

Can you cite an example of CRT ever complaining that no license is being displayed? 


It happens in river locks as others have suggested.

 

When locking on the Severn it pays for you to overtly display a valid licence rather than have the lock operative go and look it up which isn’t always reliable and might end up with you trying to prove it via your online account on a mobile device while you’re sat a long way below the lockside.

 

All that displaying a name and number on the side does is suggest the boat was once registered and licenced. That’s OK for licence checkers who upload their sightings back at the office (or maybe their handheld devices do a check) but not sufficient in situations where you require easy passage there and then.

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2 hours ago, Midnight said:

Why? Genuine question as it doesn't seem too difficult to display a license. It is after all part of C&RT's T&Cs even though I accept the checkers don't seem to bother. 

 

(i) It's easy to print a license  if you have easy access to a printer. But a pain if you don't have a printer.

 

(ii)Not displaying a license is acknowledged as not required by C&RT.

 

(iii)An unnecessary requirement due to mobile access to data.

 

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3 hours ago, Jess-- said:

 

I wonder if they removed the offence of displaying an out of date tax disc when they removed the requirement to display one.

According to a police friend no they didn't.  He saw my out ofdate disk and old me to refuse it or some so and so would do me for it.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

(i) It's easy to print a license  if you have easy access to a printer. But a pain if you don't have a printer.

 

 

Twice my license has been emailed whilst out cruising. Each time I called in the nearest boatyard and they happily printed them out for me. One charged me a pound, the other did it for nowt.

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This is the first sentence on my licence renewal email received yesterday:

 

Thank you for purchasing a long term boat licence. Two copies of this are printed below. Please fix one to each side of
your boat so that they can be clearly seen from the outside.

 

They ask for us to display them so why not just do it until told otherwise? It's really not difficult. 

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On 30/06/2022 at 13:31, magnetman said:

Unofficially it's fine if you don't display license. As long as the original pressed aluminium number plates are shown it's ok. 

 

 

You don't have to use those plates, just have display number in accordance with the visibility rules.

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6 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

(i) It's easy to print a license  if you have easy access to a printer. But a pain if you don't have a printer.

 

(ii)Not displaying a license is acknowledged as not required by C&RT.

 

(iii)An unnecessary requirement due to mobile access to data.

 

I doubt if CART will (today) state (ii). They are much more concerned about keeping statements on rules to what they believe to be the legal position. They cannot dispense with the need to display. I think they started to say something more realistic a few years back and ran into trouble as a result. What they can do is vary the way in which they pursue the requirement and I guess they have no funds to prosecute an offender. However,  should you annoy them then beware. Just like traffic police will include a charge of not having the proper lights on a car if you have 'come to their attention'.

21 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So, you get a licence granted with invalid insurance ?

If course. CART can only ask about your insurance certificate but if you obtained it by giving the insurer false info then you will find out that it is invalid when you try to make a claim.

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From C&RT Boaters Updates :

 

 

Please help us by displaying your boat’s index number, licence and name

Most boats correctly display their index number licence and boat name, but recently we have started to see an increase in those that don’t. It’s important to display your boat’s details so that in the event of an accident or problem with the boat, we can identify and contact the boater concerned. It also reduces the time spent by our boat licence rangers, who lose time when trying to identify non-displaying boats. If we can’t identify your boat, we aren’t able to accurately record sightings and this may impact on future licensing decisions, particularly if you don’t have a home mooring.

Licence Support Officer checks boat licences in LondonThe British Waterways Act 1971 requires a boat’s name and index to be displayed ‘conspicuously’ and the boat licence terms and conditions specify the details are displayed on both sides of the boats, easily visible. We are starting a new process to address non-displaying boats on the waterway, which could result in enforcement action, so please make sure you’re displaying your boat details correctly and speak to fellow boaters that might not be.

If you need a replacement index number or plastic Licence Holder, you should visit our online shop or contact our customer services team.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From C&RT Boaters Updates :

 

 

Please help us by displaying your boat’s index number, licence and name

Most boats correctly display their index number licence and boat name, but recently we have started to see an increase in those that don’t. It’s important to display your boat’s details so that in the event of an accident or problem with the boat, we can identify and contact the boater concerned. It also reduces the time spent by our boat licence rangers, who lose time when trying to identify non-displaying boats. If we can’t identify your boat, we aren’t able to accurately record sightings and this may impact on future licensing decisions, particularly if you don’t have a home mooring.

Licence Support Officer checks boat licences in LondonThe British Waterways Act 1971 requires a boat’s name and index to be displayed ‘conspicuously’ and the boat licence terms and conditions specify the details are displayed on both sides of the boats, easily visible. We are starting a new process to address non-displaying boats on the waterway, which could result in enforcement action, so please make sure you’re displaying your boat details correctly and speak to fellow boaters that might not be.

If you need a replacement index number or plastic Licence Holder, you should visit our online shop or contact our customer services team.

The wording on that is interesting in the context of this discussion.

 

I think it is generally agreed that displaying index number and name is necessary, and this is referred to in the text above, but it attempts to assimilate the licence in as something which must be displayed according to the 1971 Act by association rather than explicitly. The licence is only explicitly mentioned in the title and the first sentence, which respectively make a request to do so (rather than state an obligation as is the case for the name and index number) and state that 'most boats correctly display their index number licence and boat name' rather than specifying what is 'correct for the licence. It is definitely ambiguous on the point of displaying the licence.

 

I can just see what would happen though if you start following the request to 'speak to fellow boater that might not be'...

 

Alec

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On 30/06/2022 at 13:31, magnetman said:

As long as the original pressed aluminium number plates are shown it's ok. 

 

 

I've never had those 

What is so important about the plates being original pressed aluminium ?

 

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1 hour ago, agg221 said:

The wording on that is interesting in the context of this discussion.

 

I think it is generally agreed that displaying index number and name is necessary, and this is referred to in the text above, but it attempts to assimilate the licence in as something which must be displayed according to the 1971 Act by association rather than explicitly. The licence is only explicitly mentioned in the title and the first sentence, which respectively make a request to do so (rather than state an obligation as is the case for the name and index number) and state that 'most boats correctly display their index number licence and boat name' rather than specifying what is 'correct for the licence. It is definitely ambiguous on the point of displaying the licence.

 

I can just see what would happen though if you start following the request to 'speak to fellow boater that might not be'...

 

Alec

 

As has been explained earlier - the display of the licence is a LEGAL requirement. not just a 'request'

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As has been explained earlier - the display of the licence is a LEGAL requirement. not just a 'request'

I saw that, which is why I thought it interesting that the notice makes reference to the legal requirement to display the name and index, but not the legal requirement to display the licence. It leaves it ambiguous and gives a sense of nudging towards the licence question rather than stating it definitively (which they could do).

 

Alec

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14 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Not important or not Original or not Aluminium or not Pressed?

Not at all important. The number has to be displayed somehow, big enough for the spotter to read. The original plates are rather nice, I really ought to get round to fixing them to the boat rather than propped up in the windows.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As has been explained earlier - the display of the licence is a LEGAL requirement. not just a 'request'

A legality that the legislating body says it doesn't care about or police may be something, but it isn't a requirement. In effect, a request is what it is. There are a lot of these pointless laws that no-one has the time to get rid of. They're just obsolete, ignored and then forgotten.

Personally, I think getting rid of car tax disks and CRT printed licences were both daft ideas, but there they are.

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55 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A legality that the legislating body says it doesn't care about or police may be something, but it isn't a requirement. In effect, a request is what it is. There are a lot of these pointless laws that no-one has the time to get rid of. They're just obsolete, ignored and then forgotten.

Personally, I think getting rid of car tax disks and CRT printed licences were both daft ideas, but there they are.

CRT is not a legislating body. It is the law of the land. Perhaps you are in the habit of choosing which laws you think are worthy of adhering to and which are not, but that is a dangerous path to anarchy, or more likely to making a mistake in your assessment and ending up being prosecuted.

Edited by nicknorman
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According to the latest Boater’s Update it is not a legal requirement but it is a requirement under the licence terms and conditions. I have pasted the paragraph below from the Boaters’ Update.

 

The British Waterways Act 1971 requires a boat’s name and index to be displayed ‘conspicuously’ and the boat licence terms and conditions specify the details are displayed on both sides of the boats, easily visible. We are starting a new process to address non-displaying boats on the waterway, which could result in enforcement action, so please make sure you’re displaying your boat details correctly and speak to fellow boaters that might not be.

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8 minutes ago, RAP said:

According to the latest Boater’s Update it is not a legal requirement but it is a requirement under the licence terms and conditions. I have pasted the paragraph below from the Boaters’ Update.

 

The British Waterways Act 1971 requires a boat’s name and index to be displayed ‘conspicuously’ and the boat licence terms and conditions specify the details are displayed on both sides of the boats, easily visible. We are starting a new process to address non-displaying boats on the waterway, which could result in enforcement action, so please make sure you’re displaying your boat details correctly and speak to fellow boaters that might not be.

But it doesn’t say that, you have added your own interpretation. It says that it is a requirement under the Ts and Cs. It does not say that it is not also a requirement arising from statute.

 

The 1971 Bylaws have this to say:

 

Display of Licences
3. (1) The owner of a pleasure boat or commercial vessel shall not knowingly cause or permit to be used on a canal any pleasure boat or commercial vessel in respect of which a pleasure boat licence or commercial vessel licence has been issued unless the licence for the time being in force is displayed on the pleasure boat or commercial vessel in such a manner and position as to be clearly visible from outside the pleasure boat or commercial vessel at all times.
(2) No person shall knowingly cause or permit to be concealed a pleasure boat licence or commercial vessel licence required to be displayed on a pleasure boat or commercial vessel in accordance with this Bye-law.
Penalties
4. Any person who contravenes any of the foregoing Bye-laws shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty-five pounds for each offence.

Edited by nicknorman
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12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Any person who contravenes any of the foregoing Bye-laws shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty-five pounds for each offence.

 

And If I remember correctly Nigel Moore was of the mind that a new offence was committed every day until the 'fault' had been corrected.

Certainly the Richmond Council moorings Byelaws recently introduced specifically state that the fine becomes a new offence every day.

 

It doesnt take long to run up a good sized debt at £25 per day

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Crt kindly contacted me over this issue. Their checker couldnt see the painted on number on the boat . ( winter covers)

Without  going into  the ‘ how did you know it was my boat if you didnt know what boat it was shenanigan’ , they helpfully offered to make me up “a plate to put in the window”

At that point i pointed out it wouldnt help as the boat has 1 porthole, so it wouldnt fit. ( it is actually in there but in tiny letters)

After looking at the boats image ( yes they do have them) a polite compromise was reached.

In the winter i now put the smashed up (by bwb) plates i found under the engine on the pigeon box attached by magnets.

in the summer the painted number is exposed.

They can compromise, and more to the point clearlyhave images of your boat on their files…

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

CRT is not a legislating body. It is the law of the land. Perhaps you are in the habit of choosing which laws you think are worthy of adhering to and which are not, but that is a dangerous path to anarchy, or more likely to making a mistake in your assessment and ending up being prosecuted.

Yes of course I am, and so does everybody else. You too, almost certainly, unless you have never exceeded the speed limit on the roads.

Only an idiot adheres to a law they believe is immoral (not that speed limits are!) - I think that excuse got dumped at Nuremberg. You wouldn't have the vote if people hadn't broken the law back in the day. Mostly, the law is irrelevant - we don't even know what most of them are (politicians pass them by the hundred) and nor do judges or policemen.

The one about licences is,  according to CRT, who really ought to know, outdated, unnecessary for their purposes, and not insisted on. I can't see it's worth all this fuss and getting heated about. Mine are in the window because, why not?

P S I think you have just called our Prime Minister an anarchist, which is interesting, and possibly correct...

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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10 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Yes of course I am, and so does everybody else. You too, almost certainly, unless you have never exceeded the speed limit on the roads.

Only an idiot adheres to a law they believe is immoral (not that speed limits are!) - I think that excuse got dumped at Nuremberg. You wouldn't have the vote if people hadn't broken the law back in the day. Mostly, the law is irrelevant - we don't even know what most of them are (politicians pass them by the hundred) and nor do judges or policemen.

The one about licences is,  according to CRT, who really ought to know, outdated, unnecessary for their purposes, and not insisted on. I can't see it's worth all this fuss and getting heated about. Mine are in the window because, why not?

P S I think you have just called our Prime Minister an anarchist, which is interesting, and possibly correct...

So if I understand you correctly, you think that having to display your licence is immoral? Could you explain why? And no, CRT do not say that. Have you read this thread?

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