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New to Boat life - already unhappy with the CRT


DShK

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Unofficially it's fine if you don't display license. As long as the original pressed aluminium number plates are shown it's ok. 

 

 

Ah! Got that wrong as well then.

Printed and laminated to fit portholes.

 

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Unofficially it's fine if you don't display license. As long as the original pressed aluminium number plates are shown it's ok. 

 

 

I have my index number painted on the side of my boat, I assume that's fine as well?

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14 minutes ago, DShK said:

Are you, uh, comparing a couple of pounds interest to £100 worth of fees? Yours is lack of action. Mine, what were my choices? I'm sure I would get the same kind of blaming attitude if I didn't license and insure my boat and got in trouble? Should I be punished for playing by the rules? Did I get my money's worth in those two days?

I’d be tempted to give them a ring and ask if they’re able to make any sort of a refund. 
The worst they can say is no. 
 

I would have gone without a license for the 2 days. 
 


 

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13 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’d be tempted to give them a ring and ask if they’re able to make any sort of a refund. 
The worst they can say is no. 
 

I would have gone without a license for the 2 days. 
 


 

I don't think it's that simple, when the previous owner applies for their refund CRT ask the date the boat changed hands, so you need to both agree the official date for that.

Edited by Slow and Steady
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42 minutes ago, DShK said:

Are you, uh, comparing a couple of pounds interest to £100 worth of fees? Yours is lack of action. Mine, what were my choices? I'm sure I would get the same kind of blaming attitude if I didn't license and insure my boat and got in trouble? Should I be punished for playing by the rules? Did I get my money's worth in those two days?

As I was told at a very early age "Life's not fair!"

 

Think it was my mum when I was having a temper tantrum 🤔

 

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38 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’d be tempted to give them a ring and ask if they’re able to make any sort of a refund. 
The worst they can say is no. 
 

I would have gone without a license for the 2 days. 
 


 

Thanks for the actually useful input. I've paid for my next lot now, so I could ring up and state my case. I'll give this a go.

 

34 minutes ago, Chris John said:

Strange how someone has an own goal yet it’s CRT’s fault! 

Right, thanks mate, useful, glad to have you in the discussion. So you're for me being punished by working by the rules?

 

25 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

I don't think it's that simple, when the previous owner applies for their refund CRT ask the date the boat changed hands, so you need to both agree the official date for that.

Odd, there was never any agreement on this beyond signing of the contract. I just claimed the boat as mine when I applied for my license. No idea what the previous owners did. I couldn't be upset at them either way, they did leave me with 400 litres of fuel!

 

14 minutes ago, Slim said:

As I was told at a very early age "Life's not fair!"

 

Think it was my mum when I was having a temper tantrum 🤔

 

I like how you're insinuating that I'm being childish by having a greviance with a company policy. Yet you're the one going on the internet and being a troll. I grew out of this when I was 13.

 

There really are some people on this forum that are terminally online.

Edited by DShK
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2 hours ago, reg said:

From CRT

I’ve lost my licence discs, what should I do?

Although we can tell from the boat index number whether a boat is licenced, it’s still a legal requirement to display them along with your boat name and index number. If you bought your licence online, you can log into your account and print another set. If your index plates are temporarily obscured for any reason (eg. under covers during winter) you can also print temporary plates to display

I would be interested to see the statutes that make it a legal requirement to display a license. Or is this another of Canal and River Trust's interpretations of the law rather than what the statutes say?

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Rubbish.

 

 

You can have insurance without a licence, but you cannot have a licence without insurance.

Depends where your narrowboat is and who you are insured with. Craftinsure narrowboat policy has a condition that you have any relevant navigation licence.

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45 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Untrue, unless in your policy it specifically says that which I doubt.

My Craftinsure policy states im the terms and conditions:

 

"You possess a current Canal & River Trust or Environment Agency Licence, or the equivalent Licence from the local Navigation Authority as appropriate, and a
current Boat Safety Certificate".

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Just now, MartinC said:

Depends where your narrowboat is and who you are insured with. Craftinsure narrowboat policy has a condition that you have any relevant navigation licence.

 

So if you cannot get a licence without insurance, and you cannot get insurance without a licence ...........................

 

Can you see where I am coming from ?

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1 hour ago, DShK said:

 

For sure, I get that. But for the same reason our privatised railways have been slowly failing back to public ownership, monopolies on infastructure it is impossible to compete with in the modern era doesn't really work out well. If CRT had a competetor, I'd have the choice to use them instead. But they don't, so they can do as they wish. They are of course supposed to be a charity, but that really means very little outside of tax/profit use.

It depends on who it works out well for... I think it's one of Parkinson's Laws that says that in the end, a business always end up being more interested in maintaining its own systems than in serving its customers. The charity thing is just a tax position, not an ethical one.

There are competitors, in a way. Some rivers are run by the Environment Agency and the Bridgewater is owned by Peel, and the latter has been a pain in the neck for any CRT users wanting access across it.

CRT has to juggle all its interests, boating being a small one and the interest of changes of ownership even smaller, on a budget that is constantly being cut and still has to support the lifestyles of the Board. Much, much more important than the finances of new boatowners...

1 hour ago, DShK said:

 

For sure, I get that. But for the same reason our privatised railways have been slowly failing back to public ownership, monopolies on infastructure it is impossible to compete with in the modern era doesn't really work out well. If CRT had a competetor, I'd have the choice to use them instead. But they don't, so they can do as they wish. They are of course supposed to be a charity, but that really means very little outside of tax/profit use.

It depends on who it works out well for... I think it's one of Parkinson's Laws that says that in the end, a business always end up being more interested in maintaining its own systems than in serving its customers. The charity thing is just a tax position, not an ethical one.

There are competitors, in a way. Some rivers are run by the Environment Agency and the Bridgewater is owned by Peel, and the latter has been a pain in the neck for any CRT users wanting access across it.

CRT has to juggle all its interests, boating being a small one and the interest of changes of ownership even smaller, on a budget that is constantly being cut and still has to support the lifestyles of the Board. Much, much more important than the finances of new boatowners...

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4 hours ago, DShK said:

Bought my boat two months ago, paid for 3 months of license. I paid for it at the end of April. I was expecting to renew at the end of July. Nope! Apparently their licenses "start at the beginning of the month" so I paid for a month of license that allowed me to use my boat for 2 days. Great!

 

Sorry, needed to rant!

Same rules as car road Tax.

The rules are quite clearly stated

image.png.3696aa57898ed9482374b25105c93288.png

 

 

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2 hours ago, DShK said:

Are you, uh, comparing a couple of pounds interest to £100 worth of fees? Yours is lack of action. Mine, what were my choices? I'm sure I would get the same kind of blaming attitude if I didn't license and insure my boat and got in trouble? Should I be punished for playing by the rules? Did I get my money's worth in those two days?

Get over it!

You're winding yourself up!

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1 hour ago, Phaes Brook said:

I would be interested to see the statutes that make it a legal requirement to display a license. Or is this another of Canal and River Trust's interpretations of the law rather than what the statutes say?

I have just looked up the British Waterways Act 1995, which I believe is still the relevant legislation.
The only mention of displaying anything is on page 24 where it states:
Display of certificate
10  The certificate shall be displayed on the houseboat so as to be clearly visible from
the outside of the houseboat at all times.
It is interesting to note that 
on page 11, “houseboat certificate” means a houseboat certificate issued under the Act
of 1971;
and separately 
and on the same page, “licence” means a licence issued by the Board in respect of any vessel
allowing the use of the vessel on any inland waterways;
indicating to me that it is a requirement to display a certificate but not a requirement to display a license.

The Act clearly treats  a certificate as different to a license.
 

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16 minutes ago, Phaes Brook said:

I have just looked up the British Waterways Act 1995, which I believe is still the relevant legislation.
The only mention of displaying anything is on page 24 where it states:
Display of certificate
10  The certificate shall be displayed on the houseboat so as to be clearly visible from
the outside of the houseboat at all times.
It is interesting to note that 
on page 11, “houseboat certificate” means a houseboat certificate issued under the Act
of 1971;
and separately 
and on the same page, “licence” means a licence issued by the Board in respect of any vessel
allowing the use of the vessel on any inland waterways;
indicating to me that it is a requirement to display a certificate but not a requirement to display a license.

The Act clearly treats  a certificate as different to a license.
 

It is in the General canal byelaws

---

 

Display of Licences
Display of
licences
3. (1) The owner of a pleasure boat or commercial vessel shall not
knowingly cause or permit to be used on a canal any pleasure boat or commercial vessel in respect of which a pleasure boat licence or commercial vessel licence has been issued unless the licence for the time being in force is displayed on the pleasure boat or commercial vessel in such a manner and position as to be clearly visible from outside the pleasure boat or commercialvessel at all times.
(2) No person shall knowingly cause or permit to be concealed a pleasure boat licence or commercial vessel licence required to be displayed on a pleasure boat or commercial vessel in accordance with this Bye-law.

 

 

---

 

We all know CRT do not pursue byelaw offences but it is technically a legal requirement to display license in a prominent position and they even reinforce it by pointing out that anyone deliberately obscuring it is contravening byelaws. 

 

Fine a pound and sixpence. 

Edited by magnetman
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31 minutes ago, Phaes Brook said:

I have just looked up the British Waterways Act 1995, which I believe is still the relevant legislation.
The only mention of displaying anything is on page 24 where it states:
Display of certificate
10  The certificate shall be displayed on the houseboat so as to be clearly visible from
the outside of the houseboat at all times.
It is interesting to note that 
on page 11, “houseboat certificate” means a houseboat certificate issued under the Act
of 1971;
and separately 
and on the same page, “licence” means a licence issued by the Board in respect of any vessel
allowing the use of the vessel on any inland waterways;
indicating to me that it is a requirement to display a certificate but not a requirement to display a license.

The Act clearly treats  a certificate as different to a license.
 

 

There are several Acts of Parliament that detail the 'laws applicable to the canals' - the 1995 Act is just one of them.

Then as magnetman has said there are a 'raft' of General Byelaws.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It depends on who it works out well for... I think it's one of Parkinson's Laws that says that in the end, a business always end up being more interested in maintaining its own systems than in serving its customers. The charity thing is just a tax position, not an ethical one.

There are competitors, in a way. Some rivers are run by the Environment Agency and the Bridgewater is owned by Peel, and the latter has been a pain in the neck for any CRT users wanting access across it.

CRT has to juggle all its interests, boating being a small one and the interest of changes of ownership even smaller, on a budget that is constantly being cut and still has to support the lifestyles of the Board. Much, much more important than the finances of new boatowners...

It depends on who it works out well for... I think it's one of Parkinson's Laws that says that in the end, a business always end up being more interested in maintaining its own systems than in serving its customers. The charity thing is just a tax position, not an ethical one.

There are competitors, in a way. Some rivers are run by the Environment Agency and the Bridgewater is owned by Peel, and the latter has been a pain in the neck for any CRT users wanting access across it.

CRT has to juggle all its interests, boating being a small one and the interest of changes of ownership even smaller, on a budget that is constantly being cut and still has to support the lifestyles of the Board. Much, much more important than the finances of new boatowners...

Yep all true. Interesting that there sort of are competitors, I wasn't aware of that. Boat licenses are like 10% of CRT funding right? So really we're not all that important to them, if looking purely surface level.

 

I'm going to abandon this thread now as to be honest I wanted a little moan because part of the reason I wanted to join the canals was to feel part of a community. I see a lot of in-groups in here who just seem to post what comes to mind and I thought that it'd be fine to have a little rant.  But this has descended into ITS YOUR OWN FAULT, which is like, sure. I'll rant to people in my marina instead going forward.

 

Thanks to the people who have given genuine advice and discussion though. I do appreciate that.

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5 minutes ago, DShK said:

Yep all true. Interesting that there sort of are competitors, I wasn't aware of that.

 

There are (I think) 27 Navigation authorities controlling the Inland waterways, certainly C&RT and the EA are the biggest, but there are plenty of other options of places to use and keep your boat outwith C&RT, or the EA sphere of influence.

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4 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think it's just a way of keeping the job simple for CRT. Fairness isn't really a characteristic of how businesses are run. Some things they do probably work out to our advantage, though I can't put my finger on one right now...

 

 

Moor your boat on the public towpath anywhere you like for up to 14 days free of charge. Buy a licence without having a home mooring. 

 

I can't think of any other navigation authority that offers both of these.

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Two experiences from last year.

 

1. Buying a boat which was clearly historic but not documented as such as it had been on EA waters since before the system was established. At the time of purchase the entire CRT department responsible for historic licences was off with COVID so we owned a boat which could not be correctly licenced and needed to move it from where we bought it to its mooring (about 90miles). A chat with the regional manager to explain the circumstances established that no action would be taken if it was reported as it was a situation out of our control. For most of the time it took to sort it out we were in a private arm anyway, where we stayed en-route. Time from the relevant person coming back to work to us having a licence was under 24hrs, although in part that was due to the stunning efforts of the head of National Historic Ships who received our application when she got in to work at 8am and had issued the registration number by 8.30am!

 

2. A friend who bought a boat and to get it from where they bought it (private waters) to their mooring was about a 3hr trip but an extended stoppage was coming into force on the 30th of the month. They decided that since both ends of the journey were OK, and they would not be mooring anywhere in the middle, they just moved it and bought a licence on the 1st.

 

Not displaying a licence appears now to be fairly commonplace, although the boats do appear to clearly display their registration number so it probably isn't worth anyone's while to pursue the display issue if a check shows it is correctly licenced?

 

Alec

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So if you cannot get a licence without insurance, and you cannot get insurance without a licence ...........................

 

Can you see where I am coming from ?

You can get insurance without demonstrating you have a license at purchase, however for the insurance to be valid you have to have a license. 

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