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Land for sale next to canals


jaime66

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Constant monitoring of the www/land sales sites, but mostly right place at the right time. A LOT of boaters dream of getting a bit of canalside land. I assume you hope to moor a boat? Note that owning land does not give an automatic right to moor, you will need permission from CRT and to pay them rent, and there are many reasons why they might not allow a mooring. Many canals are shallow on the offside so mooring might not be possible. Also you do not give a location, but on the K&A (for instance) NO new moorings are allowed.

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15 minutes ago, dmr said:

Constant monitoring of the www/land sales sites, but mostly right place at the right time. A LOT of boaters dream of getting a bit of canalside land. I assume you hope to moor a boat? Note that owning land does not give an automatic right to moor, you will need permission from CRT and to pay them rent, and there are many reasons why they might not allow a mooring. Many canals are shallow on the offside so mooring might not be possible. Also you do not give a location, but on the K&A (for instance) NO new moorings are allowed.


Can you still stay for 14 days ?

 

The 14 day rule applies to both sides of the bank? Or no?
If given permission by landowner on the none towpath side could I stay for a fortnight?

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1 minute ago, Goliath said:


Can you still stay for 14 days ?

 

The 14 day rule applies to both sides of the bank? Or no?
If given permission by landowner on the none towpath side could I stay for a fortnight?

No. C&RT will do their utmost to stop the land owner allowing you to moor, including advising the local planning authority that the use of the land is changed from agriculture to leisure which will cause a panic.

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24 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In general Canal & River Trust will not sanction any new linear moorings.

I though that they had (fairly) recently changed the rules so that you can put an end-of-garden mooring on a lot of land, rather than it needing to be the garden of a house., Last time we went into Liverpool I spotted a couple of new moorings in the Parbold area.

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2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’m (hypothetically) on about mooring for a few days and moving on, do CRT object to that?


 

 
 

Thats a tricky one, I suspect CRT would ultimately object. If you stop for 14 days then you would likely get away with it, but then another boat might follow you, then another and another, so thats a proper mooring that would need permission and payment.

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8 minutes ago, dmr said:

I though that they had (fairly) recently changed the rules so that you can put an end-of-garden mooring on a lot of land, rather than it needing to be the garden of a house., Last time we went into Liverpool I spotted a couple of new moorings in the Parbold area.

If you are referring to the divided field, next to the railway line, I know this mooring. It was created some time ago and the plots sold off. Strictly non residential when I was involved. 

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12 minutes ago, dmr said:

Thats a tricky one, I suspect CRT would ultimately object. If you stop for 14 days then you would likely get away with it, but then another boat might follow you, then another and another, so thats a proper mooring that would need permission and payment.

That was my line of thinking too. 
 

But, when you say a proper mooring..

It’s really a temporary mooring and not a permanent mooring. 
Certainly not permanent for a single boat.
 

 

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There are a few offside spots across the system that are not signed as moorings but often used as short term moorings so its all a grey area. The little side arm on the Rochdale just above Littleborough is an example, and you have moored there 😀. I suppose its all CRT land rather than private land which might make a difference. Lots of offside pub moorings...I wonder if they pay any money to CRT?  and some pub "visitor" moorings turn into long term moorings when the pub realises that money can be made.  Its sad that Nigel Moore is no longer with us.

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

Last time we went into Liverpool I spotted a couple of new moorings in the Parbold area.

 

They have been there for years.  Full residential PP, water on site and negotiating for electricity on site.

 

Very sought after, and one of them is currently for sale, as is the widebeam moored on the plot.

 

One of our members has one of the other plots, there's a run of 7 or 8 of them from memory.  Not more than a dozen anyway.

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Thats interesting, I thought it was new last time we went past, and it did look a bit new, but it certainly was a big widebeam. Haven't been into Liverpool for a bit due to Covid, might go next year and will have another look.

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34 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

They have been there for years.  Full residential PP, water on site and negotiating for electricity on site.

 

Very sought after, and one of them is currently for sale, as is the widebeam moored on the plot.

 

One of our members has one of the other plots, there's a run of 7 or 8 of them from memory.  Not more than a dozen anyway.

They were sold originally for £23K each if I remember correctly, water was on then.

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10 hours ago, Goliath said:

That was my line of thinking too. 
 

But, when you say a proper mooring..

It’s really a temporary mooring and not a permanent mooring. 
Certainly not permanent for a single boat.
 

 

But the usage is permanent/long term.

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23 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In general Canal & River Trust will not sanction any new linear moorings.

Not true, they have a newish policy which whilst not exactly encouraging online moorings does give clear criteria that need to be met. 

 

And yes they will give permission for 1 mooring on a plot of land as a sort of end of garden mooring but not any more than 1 unless you want to go down the commercial mooring route  ( and you don't want to unless you are really sure ...)

 

22 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If you are referring to the divided field, next to the railway line, I know this mooring. It was created some time ago and the plots sold off. Strictly non residential when I was involved. 

Sorry Tracy also not quite right, one has full residential pp for sure, although id say it would be difficult for any of the others to get residential pp but who knows with local authorities....

 

22 hours ago, Goliath said:

As a scenario; 

my Nan has house backing on to the canal. 
I tie up for a few nights and move off. 
 

owt wrong with that?

I don't think CRT can do anything if you move off after14 days providing you have the landowners permission 

(Assuming there is no other reason eg next to a bridge or causing an obstruction of course)

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21 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Not true, they have a newish policy which whilst not exactly encouraging online moorings does give clear criteria that need to be met. 

 

And yes they will give permission for 1 mooring on a plot of land as a sort of end of garden mooring but not any more than 1 unless you want to go down the commercial mooring route  ( and you don't want to unless you are really sure ...)

 

Sorry Tracy also not quite right, one has full residential pp for sure, although id say it would be difficult for any of the others to get residential pp but who knows with local authorities....

 

I don't think CRT can do anything if you move off after14 days providing you have the landowners permission 

(Assuming there is no other reason eg next to a bridge or causing an obstruction of course)

It must be the fat end of 18 years since I was involved on that site. Then it was definitely no live aboards.

 

British Waterways ruled in 1998 that there would be no new linear moorings, meaning multiple moorings, but it has had some relaxations over the last 24 years!

I remember the then Estates Manager telling me that live aboard boaters were a pain in his nether region. I did suggest to him that if BW set up some decent residential moorings, especially north of Birmingham, the pain would ease. He was not of the same mind.

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On 25/06/2022 at 20:40, dmr said:

Thats a tricky one, I suspect CRT would ultimately object. If you stop for 14 days then you would likely get away with it, but then another boat might follow you, then another and another, so thats a proper mooring that would need permission and payment.

 Actually, no it wouldn't, there is a planning case many years ago when it was found that the act of mooring itself is part of the scenery of the canals - what would need planning permission is if anything was provided at the mooring e.g a shed or a water point. Also, charging for this facility is likely to be pushing the boundaries. So long as the moorers use their own pins or tie to the trees or a fence (and obviously so long as all other regulations including CRT's are complied with) then to allow people to moor up doesn't require planning consent. However this is arguably not particularly useful to most people as there will generally be no way off the mooring on the landward side.  

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10 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 Actually, no it wouldn't, there is a planning case many years ago when it was found that the act of mooring itself is part of the scenery of the canals - what would need planning permission is if anything was provided at the mooring e.g a shed or a water point. Also, charging for this facility is likely to be pushing the boundaries. So long as the moorers use their own pins or tie to the trees or a fence (and obviously so long as all other regulations including CRT's are complied with) then to allow people to moor up doesn't require planning consent. However this is arguably not particularly useful to most people as there will generally be no way off the mooring on the landward side.  

 

I know we have discussed the AINA document in the past, but this extract shows some of the complexities in mooring status.

 

 

3.1.2 The need for planning permission for moorings used by vessels or floating structures in residential use

 

As discussed earlier, various different types of vessels or floating structures may be in residential use; that is, in use as a person’s sole or main residence. The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land.

 

The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case.

The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

 

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO13 . Furthermore, occasional or extended holiday stays on a vessel may not, as a matter of fact and degree, be considered to amount to a material change of use i.e. to permanent residential use.

 

A number of examples will illustrate the range of issues:

 

 The use of a long-term mooring on a canal for the ‘parking’ and/or maintenance of a vessel between cruises will not usually require planning permission as such an activity is ordinarily ancillary or incidental to the use of the canal for navigation***. That will be so even if the vessel at the mooring is occasionally used for overnight stays.

 

 Where, however, a vessel or floating structure

(a) does not cruise or is incapable of cruising and

(b) is used for residential purposes as a person’s sole or main residence, many local planning authorities will regard it as being materially different in nature or character from any previous non-residential use of the planning unit and/or, where appropriate, as having actually created a new planning unit. In such circumstances, it is likely that planning permission will be required for the residential use of the mooring.

 

 More difficult may be the situation where a vessel is used for residential purposes, as a person’s sole or main residence, but does cruise regularly between stays amounting to more than 28 days at its mooring base. Whether there has been a material change of use in the location of the mooring will be a matter of fact and degree having regard to the planning unit and the nature or character of the previous and existing use.

 

 Also more difficult is where a small number of vessels are used for residential purposes within a larger site of leisure moorings. Here the residential use may be difficult to distinguish from the leisure use, and the scale of environmental impact may be marginal in relation to the existing level of activity at the site or within the planning unit .

 

 

*** See, for example, the planning appeal decision in Ladies Bridge, Wilcot, Wiltshire (Appeal ref APP/E3905/C/06/2019638) where it was found that the mooring of leisure boats on the Kennet and Avon Canal did not require planning permission because such use was ancillary to the ordinary use of the canal for navigation. Although the Inspector in the planning appeal on the Driffield Canal (Appeal ref APP/E2001/C/10/2122441) considered that, taking account of the particular circumstances of the site, the scale of the existing leisure moorings (amounting to some 70 boats), was capable of going beyond the ordinary use of the Canal and, therefore, could potentially amount to a material change of use

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18 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 Actually, no it wouldn't, there is a planning case many years ago when it was found that the act of mooring itself is part of the scenery of the canals - what would need planning permission is if anything was provided at the mooring e.g a shed or a water point. Also, charging for this facility is likely to be pushing the boundaries. So long as the moorers use their own pins or tie to the trees or a fence (and obviously so long as all other regulations including CRT's are complied with) then to allow people to moor up doesn't require planning consent. However this is arguably not particularly useful to most people as there will generally be no way off the mooring on the landward side.  

That was the planning appeal for the Ladies Bridge case on the K&A? An important judgement. But surely this applies to the requirement for planning permission rather than getting permission from CRT.  To take an extreme case, if I have a popular bit of canalside land and invite boats to moor there for 14 days, and that spot is occupied 100% of the time (by different boats) then I have created an offside mooring and it will need CRT permission and payment??   The appeal case that you mention also stated that in planning terms there is no difference between a single boat moored long term, and a succession of visiting boats, but this is not how CRT see things  😀  There is also the issue that the 14 day rule only applies to continuous cruisers, though CRT try to apply it to all boats. So, if I have a home mooring could I stop indefinately on the offside against land owned by a friend without CRT permission?   There are many other issues, if I wanted to create an offside mooring I would have to get a water vole survey and possibly construct bank protection etc etc, so just mooring on the offside circumvents all of this. 

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21 minutes ago, dmr said:

That was the planning appeal for the Ladies Bridge case on the K&A? An important judgement. But surely this applies to the requirement for planning permission rather than getting permission from CRT.  To take an extreme case, if I have a popular bit of canalside land and invite boats to moor there for 14 days, and that spot is occupied 100% of the time (by different boats) then I have created an offside mooring and it will need CRT permission and payment??   The appeal case that you mention also stated that in planning terms there is no difference between a single boat moored long term, and a succession of visiting boats, but this is not how CRT see things  😀  There is also the issue that the 14 day rule only applies to continuous cruisers, though CRT try to apply it to all boats. So, if I have a home mooring could I stop indefinately on the offside against land owned by a friend without CRT permission?   There are many other issues, if I wanted to create an offside mooring I would have to get a water vole survey and possibly construct bank protection etc etc, so just mooring on the offside circumvents all of this. 

 

CRT would be quite within their rights to put "no mooring signs up" if that's what you mean!

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I know we have discussed the AINA document in the past, but this extract shows some of the complexities in mooring status.

 

 

3.1.2 The need for planning permission for moorings used by vessels or floating structures in residential use

 

As discussed earlier, various different types of vessels or floating structures may be in residential use; that is, in use as a person’s sole or main residence. The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land.

 

The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case.

The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

 

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO13 . Furthermore, occasional or extended holiday stays on a vessel may not, as a matter of fact and degree, be considered to amount to a material change of use i.e. to permanent residential use.

 

A number of examples will illustrate the range of issues:

 

 The use of a long-term mooring on a canal for the ‘parking’ and/or maintenance of a vessel between cruises will not usually require planning permission as such an activity is ordinarily ancillary or incidental to the use of the canal for navigation***. That will be so even if the vessel at the mooring is occasionally used for overnight stays.

 

 Where, however, a vessel or floating structure

(a) does not cruise or is incapable of cruising and

(b) is used for residential purposes as a person’s sole or main residence, many local planning authorities will regard it as being materially different in nature or character from any previous non-residential use of the planning unit and/or, where appropriate, as having actually created a new planning unit. In such circumstances, it is likely that planning permission will be required for the residential use of the mooring.

 

 More difficult may be the situation where a vessel is used for residential purposes, as a person’s sole or main residence, but does cruise regularly between stays amounting to more than 28 days at its mooring base. Whether there has been a material change of use in the location of the mooring will be a matter of fact and degree having regard to the planning unit and the nature or character of the previous and existing use.

 

 Also more difficult is where a small number of vessels are used for residential purposes within a larger site of leisure moorings. Here the residential use may be difficult to distinguish from the leisure use, and the scale of environmental impact may be marginal in relation to the existing level of activity at the site or within the planning unit .

 

 

*** See, for example, the planning appeal decision in Ladies Bridge, Wilcot, Wiltshire (Appeal ref APP/E3905/C/06/2019638) where it was found that the mooring of leisure boats on the Kennet and Avon Canal did not require planning permission because such use was ancillary to the ordinary use of the canal for navigation. Although the Inspector in the planning appeal on the Driffield Canal (Appeal ref APP/E2001/C/10/2122441) considered that, taking account of the particular circumstances of the site, the scale of the existing leisure moorings (amounting to some 70 boats), was capable of going beyond the ordinary use of the Canal and, therefore, could potentially amount to a material change of use

 Indeed, absolutely and I agree with all that but read what I said

 

55 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 So long as the moorers use their own pins or tie to the trees or a fence (and obviously so long as all other regulations including CRT's are complied with) then to allow people to moor up doesn't require planning consent. 

 There is a big difference between allow and encourage btw, hence my carefully chosen words, and I did caveat that the fact planning permission isn't needed isn't especially helpful for most circumstances

 

Edited to add - there is an obvious difference if the mooring is residential, but people jump to conclusions that when moorings are being discussed residential is meant. Mooring a boat to a bank anywhere on a navigable waterway does not require planning permission, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need permission of some sort.

Edited by magpie patrick
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