bigcol Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Okay we have a problem Euston! last week we described to turn the boat arround which entails going to the winding hole. dismantled the wheel hose tried to start engine, just kept turning over beta 90 never had any problems with the engine before fuel tank showing 1/4 of a tank then put in 150 ltrs, as not sure if gauge reads correct son in law came down says it must be the fuel lift pump ordered on from Beta, and electric mod they do. conected that all up, but still no diesel coming through. we then undone tank pipe from tank, nothing coming out stuck a rod in the hole, not sure what to expect, but sounded solid? we then seem to get a dribble through, not enough the engine to turn over still PLEASE ANY ONE ANY IDEALS? Somone sugested has the diesel gone solid with diesel bug, but my seperatior shows clean fuel thanks in advance col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Use stiff wire rather than a rod. Wire to be smaller than the hole in the fuel outlet. The fuel tap or pipework could have an internal step in it that stops the rod and gives the solid feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy D'arth Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Dip tube pickup? Are you hitting the bend? Fish or foreign body in tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Yes, maybe the dip tube has cracked so is sucking air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Okay will try wire tomorrow, or maybe a 450mm tie wrap? 1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said: Yes, maybe the dip tube has cracked so is sucking air. Sorry Tony what do you mean? im talking about the outlet right at the bottom of the tank, which is the main supply to the engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 1 minute ago, bigcol said: Okay will try wire tomorrow, or maybe a 450mm tie wrap? Bear in mid what Tracy said. I would strip back a bit of domestic twin and earth and use the copper conductor. A thin enough tie wrap might go around the elbow if inserted correctly but I would think most tie wraps would be too wide to be sure they would fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Thank you all, I will try this tomorrow let you know the out come. has somthing like this happened to others then? must be very rare, boat has rarely been used from new! possible 12 running hrs tops! col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulJ Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 1 hour ago, bigcol said: Okay will try wire tomorrow, or maybe a 450mm tie wrap? Sorry Tony what do you mean? im talking about the outlet right at the bottom of the tank, which is the main supply to the engine How comes the feeds at the base of the tank? Is there none from the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 27 minutes ago, PaulJ said: How comes the feeds at the base of the tank? Is there none from the top? Best practice is to feed from the top with a dip tube, but loads are like yours. It won't be the elbow stopping the rod but best practice suggest that the outlet should have a course strainer inside the atnk. Few do these days but yours might. I would also try taking a car spare wheel to the boat so you can take out the valve core and very quickly connect a length of tube between the valve and outlet. If that clears the problem you have muck in the tank, possibly mats of bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 Feed to the tank is at the top, with the air vent. the outlet is in the bottom of the tank, bilge with fuel pipes going and connecting to engine. Col 2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: Best practice is to feed from the top with a dip tube, but loads are like yours. It won't be the elbow stopping the rod but best practice suggest that the outlet should have a course strainer inside the atnk. Few do these days but yours might. I would also try taking a car spare wheel to the boat so you can take out the valve core and very quickly connect a length of tube between the valve and outlet. If that clears the problem you have muck in the tank, possibly mats of bug. I be been thinking that, I have got a hand pump, as a hand fuel pump, and a pipe that will fit. i be doing this tomorrow. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, bigcol said: Feed to the tank is at the top, with the air vent. the outlet is in the bottom of the tank, bilge with fuel pipes going and connecting to engine. Col I be been thinking that, I have got a hand pump, as a hand fuel pump, and a pipe that will fit. i be doing this tomorrow. thanks If you can hear bubbling in the tank it has worked, if not you may need greater pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulJ Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, bigcol said: Feed to the tank is at the top, with the air vent. the outlet is in the bottom of the tank, bilge with fuel pipes going and connecting to engine. Col That suprises me as I thought your boat was a newish boat and as such would have the takeoffs from the top. (I know your next door neighbour btw if I have yours as the right boat ) My thinking behind this was just wondering if the engine had been plumbed into say a feed for a gravity feed boiler with a standpipe that stopped it emptying the fuel tank. Unlikely I know but have found stranger.. All the bottom feeds Ive ever come across tend to be on much older boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 The boat is a 2015 boat, it is a coastal category B, to be fair the fuel tank is under the main floor, so yes tho it’s at the bottom of the engine bilge you could be right. All I know all along the bottom of boat I have a grey tank, black water tank, fuel tank, and drinking water tank all these make up the whole of the boat, under the main living area,on the other side of a steel wall is the engine room. where the fuel outlet come out at the bottom of engine bilge, it’s got me thinking ffs i should know my own boat!! but yes I get the paperwork out. when, you say you know the boat, it’s a blue and cream dutch barge next door is a green Widebeam mark? you may be right!, to be fair I’m confused now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulJ Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 26 minutes ago, bigcol said: when, you say you know the boat, it’s a blue and cream dutch barge next door is a green Widebeam mark? you may be right!, to be fair I’m confused now! It is indeed- and thats my point. Things on boats get done strangely sometimes-who knows why bar the person who done it. Engine and drive train in Marks boat says it all !!! (Presumed its out now-he was about to remove it when I briefly stopped there last) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 11 hours ago, bigcol said: The boat is a 2015 boat, it is a coastal category B, to be fair the fuel tank is under the main floor, so yes tho it’s at the bottom of the engine bilge you could be right. All I know all along the bottom of boat I have a grey tank, black water tank, fuel tank, and drinking water tank all these make up the whole of the boat, under the main living area,on the other side of a steel wall is the engine room. where the fuel outlet come out at the bottom of engine bilge, it’s got me thinking ffs i should know my own boat!! but yes I get the paperwork out. when, you say you know the boat, it’s a blue and cream dutch barge next door is a green Widebeam mark? you may be right!, to be fair I’m confused now! Would you be saying the top of your fuel tank forms the bilge floor with no gap between tanks? If so the fuel supply pipe may well come out of the top of the tank with a dip tube. The elbow/bend Tracy mentioned may well be on the outside. I am not sure how one can easily drain water from the bottom of such tanks though so I hope you have an inspection hatch in it somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: Would you be saying the top of your fuel tank forms the bilge floor with no gap between tanks? If so the fuel supply pipe may well come out of the top of the tank with a dip tube. The elbow/bend Tracy mentioned may well be on the outside. I am not sure how one can easily drain water from the bottom of such tanks though so I hope you have an inspection hatch in it somewhere. Just for comparison - my cruiser has 4 tanks along the keel (under the 'floor') - starting from the bow 600 (ish) litre potable water tank 300 (ish) litre Grey water tank 300 (ish) litre Black water tank 1000 litre Diesel tank (with 2x 900 litre wing tanks) The fuel tank has 3 x 9" screw top inspection hatches on the top of the tank, these are the 'Big Red' plastic waterproof lids used on hatches / lockers. Simply unscrew the lid(s) drop a pipe / hose down and see if there is any water present. It is a requirement of the RCD that boats must have an inspection hatch of at least 6" diameter in their Diesel tank. BS EN ISO 21487:2012 If there is a drain in a diesel oil tank, it shall be fitted with a shut-off valve having a plug that can be removed only with tools. Each tank shall have an inspection hatch of at least 150 mm diameter. The inspection hatch shall, as a rule, be located on top of the tank, but for diesel oil tanks it may also be on the tank side. There shall be access to the inspection hatch when the tank is in position. Fuel system and fuel tanks ER 5.2.1 The filling, storage, venting and fuel supply arrangements and installations shall be designed and installed so as to minimise the risk of fire and explosion. ER 5.2.2 Fuel tanks - Fuel tanks, lines and hoses shall be secured and separated or protected from any source of significant heat. The material the tanks are made of and their method of construction shall be according to their capacity and the type of fuel. All tank spaces shall be ventilated. Petrol shall be kept in tanks which do not form part of the hull and are: (a) insulated from the engine compartment and from all other source of ignition; (b) separated from living quarters. Diesel fuel may be kept in tanks that are integral with the hull. Harmonised standard: BS EN ISO 10088:2013 Small craft - Permanently installed fuel systems BS EN ISO 21487:2012 Small craft - Permanently installed petrol and diesel fuel tanks The requirements for installation of a fuel system on a boat with fixed fuel tanks are given in the harmonised standard BS EN ISO 10088 Permanently installed fuel systems and BS EN ISO 21487:2012 Small craft - Permanently installed petrol and diesel fuel tanks. The requirement for petrol fuel tanks to be ‘insulated from the engine and all other sources of ignition’ is deemed to be complied with if a) the clearance between the petrol tank and the engine is greater than 100 mm and b) all electrical parts on the engine which could create a spark, and any other electrical components in the engine/fuel compartment, are ignition protected. To ensure that these components are ignition protected the boat builder should use a petrol engine that complies with BS EN ISO 15584 Inboard petrol engines - fuel and electrical system components (the engine manufacture should provide this confirmation) and for other parts, e.g. blower fan or electric bilge pump, use only components that have been CE marked in accordance with Annex II 1. The clearance between a petrol tank and any dry exhaust components must be greater than 250 mm, unless an equivalent thermal barrier is provided. For diesel engine installations, the engines used should comply with BS EN ISO 16147 Inboard diesel engines – Engine-mounted fuel and electrical components to ensure that the fuel components fitted on the engine by the engine manufacturer are safe. The engine manufacture should provide confirmation that the engine complies with this standard. Fuel hose used in the system must be fire resistant if used in the engine compartment and Where fuel hose is used the standard requires that only fire-resistant hose to BS EN ISO 7840 may be used in the engine compartment. Such hose should be stamped to indicate compliance Edited June 26, 2022 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Just for comparison - my cruiser has 4 tanks along the keel (under the 'floor' - starting from the bow 600 (ish) litre potable water tank 300(ish) litre Grey water tank 300(ish) litre Black water tank 1000 litre Diesel tank (with 2x 900 litre wing tanks) The fuel tank has 3 x 12" screw top inspection hatches on the top of the tank, these are the 'Big Red' plastic waterproof lids used on hatches / lockers. Simply unscrew the lid(s) drop a pipe / hose down and see if there is any water present. It is a requirement of the RCD that boats must have an inspection hatch of at least 6" diameter in their Diesel tank. From your photos it looks as if your tanks sit between the engine beds, possibly using the beds as the tank sides., with a walkway above the tanks. Bigcol's description suggests his are below the actual engine so I am just trying to get a picture in my mind as to exactly how his are organized. Unfortunately the fact the RCD says fuel tanks must have an inspection hatch does not mean they do, Many narrowboats show that to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: The fuel tank has 3 x 9" screw top inspection hatches on the top of the tank, these are the 'Big Red' plastic waterproof lids used on hatches / lockers. Simply unscrew the lid(s) drop a pipe / hose down and see if there is any water present. It is a requirement of the RCD that boats must have an inspection hatch of at least 6" diameter in their Diesel tank. BS EN ISO 21487:2012 If there is a drain in a diesel oil tank, it shall be fitted with a shut-off valve having a plug that can be removed only with tools. Each tank shall have an inspection hatch of at least 150 mm diameter. The inspection hatch shall, as a rule, be located on top of the tank, but for diesel oil tanks it may also be on the tank side. There shall be access to the inspection hatch when the tank is in position. And do those plastic inspection hatches comply with Boat Safety Scheme requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 42 minutes ago, David Mack said: And do those plastic inspection hatches comply with Boat Safety Scheme requirements? I doubt Alan's boat gets anywhere near waters that require a BSS. It seems some plastics can meet the relevant BS/ISO as in some diesel water separators, so they may do. I would prefer a ring of screws with a metal plate on a gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 1 hour ago, David Mack said: And do those plastic inspection hatches comply with Boat Safety Scheme requirements? 36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: I doubt Alan's boat gets anywhere near waters that require a BSS. It seems some plastics can meet the relevant BS/ISO as in some diesel water separators, so they may do. I would prefer a ring of screws with a metal plate on a gasket. You forget I (it) have spent many years on the River Trent, and it had some years on the Trent before my ownership. Yes it has (surprise surprise) passed several BSS examinations - It has two in my ownership. The RCD simply says that diesel tanks must have inspection hatches. It is actually still covered : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 Ive finally found out to resize photos please see photos photo one shows engine room empty note the diesel tank out let marked with red arrow photo 2 engine photo 3 below the water seperator ( being removed as failed BSS last week) there’s a gap in plate, where the original outlet for diesel on the other side of bulkhead is the living area which is floor level with tanks below the floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 (edited) The photo below shows the bulkhead from living space looking back to wards engine bay other side to engine bilge where the giraffes feet are is more or less where the diesel outlet is, which must mean the outlet is top of tank!! the stairs lead up to wheel house, providing the roof of engine bilge below. haven’t done the testing re pump to day, as dont feel good today, hopefully tommorrow. anyone interested in the water seperator or a new electric lifter pump with all fittings direct from Beta, instructions and original receite £120 1/2 price lol col No the soppy lazy sod is not for sale Edited June 26, 2022 by bigcol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted June 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: Just for comparison - my cruiser has 4 tanks along the keel (under the 'floor') - starting from the bow 600 (ish) litre potable water tank 300 (ish) litre Grey water tank 300 (ish) litre Black water tank 1000 litre Diesel tank (with 2x 900 litre wing tanks) The fuel tank has 3 x 9" screw top inspection hatches on the top of the tank, these are the 'Big Red' plastic waterproof lids used on hatches / lockers. Simply unscrew the lid(s) drop a pipe / hose down and see if there is any water present. It is a requirement of the RCD that boats must have an inspection hatch of at least 6" diameter in their Diesel tank. BS EN ISO 21487:2012 If there is a drain in a diesel oil tank, it shall be fitted with a shut-off valve having a plug that can be removed only with tools. Each tank shall have an inspection hatch of at least 150 mm diameter. The inspection hatch shall, as a rule, be located on top of the tank, but for diesel oil tanks it may also be on the tank side. There shall be access to the inspection hatch when the tank is in position. Our boat is basically same set up as Our boat is basically the same set up as Alan’s, steel integrated tanks all with inspection hatches, all steel and bolted sealed shut. during our boat fit out, we never fitted access areas, as there be 4 of them in the cabin space. if I had to get to them I would have to rip the inside out!!!! i will try to get some photos of the boats tanks. Bss ceases to amaze me regards to rules etc, all arround the world they make boats, and when new they would probably all fail a BSS col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted June 27, 2022 Report Share Posted June 27, 2022 16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: You forget I (it) have spent many years on the River Trent, and it had some years on the Trent before my ownership. Yes it has (surprise surprise) passed several BSS examinations - It has two in my ownership. The RCD simply says that diesel tanks must have inspection hatches. It is actually still covered : The BSS says that plastic fuel tanks are only acceptable if CE marked. It doesn't specifically address the situation of steel fuel tanks with plastic inspection hatches, but I would have thought an Examiner would only accept them if they were specifically marked as CE compliant and suitable for use with diesel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john.k Posted June 27, 2022 Report Share Posted June 27, 2022 Whats the objection to the Racor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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