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DIY Fuel Polishing...


robtheplod

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4 hours ago, David Mack said:

A drain pipe fitted at the bottom of the front plate of the fuel tank, then run across the counter plate and terminating inside the vee of the swim plate would be as near as possible to the bottom of the tank, yet it is possible to put a container below the end of the pipe to collect the fuel drained off. It won't get everything from the bottom of the tank, but will be better than most boats have.

Suggest you read the thread on return line leaking before adding another pipe that could leak! Having said that a lot of shore based tanks and yachts have sumps  and valves in the tank base for just this purpose.

Also be aware that if you travel on tidal waters the diesel could be stirred up and you could get all sorts of problems with crud and emulsified water/oil in the fuel line.....

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1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Suggest you read the thread on return line leaking before adding another pipe that could leak! Having said that a lot of shore based tanks and yachts have sumps  and valves in the tank base for just this purpose.

Also be aware that if you travel on tidal waters the diesel could be stirred up and you could get all sorts of problems with crud and emulsified water/oil in the fuel line.....

 

The pipe he suggested and which I referenced as an internal pipe has no bearing on anything other than the tank drain down.  If it snaps or corrodes it will still drain. If it blocks with crud a wire through the drain tap should clear it.

 

However, such a drains system will still not let you suck out all around the tank base.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The pipe he suggested and which I referenced as an internal pipe has no bearing on anything other than the tank drain down.  If it snaps or corrodes it will still drain. If it blocks with crud a wire through the drain tap should clear it.

 

However, such a drains system will still not let you suck out all around the tank base.

I’m just suggesting that it’s one more pipe to snap or corrode which will drain the entire tank into the bilge. In my case that could be 200 litres. Since you shouldn’t need to drain it very often a pipe from the top (Pela, suck or whatever) might avoid another potential leakage point. 

In any case how would you fit it if the tank is already in situ?

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24 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’m just suggesting that it’s one more pipe to snap or corrode which will drain the entire tank into the bilge. In my case that could be 200 litres. Since you shouldn’t need to drain it very often a pipe from the top (Pela, suck or whatever) might avoid another potential leakage point. 

In any case how would you fit it if the tank is already in situ?

 

No it won't because the pipe in question is inside the tank. The part on the outside will be the normal steel 1/8"  or 1/4" BSP nipple welded into the tank. I would suggest that the front plate of the tank would be just as likely to rust out. My boat had such a nipple as the drain point. Some have a steel female threaded "bush" welded  to the tank face.

Retrofitting is not that difficult. Drill a suitable sized hold in the tank face. Weld or braze said pipe into the fitting. Push through hole and weld in place. Another problem with all this is the fitting will have to be high enough to allow welding the lower part so that means perhaps 10mm of water could  build up in the tank before it reached the drain pipe.

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On 23/06/2022 at 10:59, Tacet said:

A drain point at the lowest part of the tank will remove the water and much of the crud; the small amount remaining will probably not get lifted up the dip pipe and if it is, the filters should cope.

I have a drain  fitted that I know hasn't been used in 11 years and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised  if it has never been used.

Only cleaned the water trap for the first time in 11 years this year got a bit of sludge and a few drops if water. 

I am wary of opening the drain as it has no tap so if I drop the bung I have 350litres of diesel to deal with, one day I might run the tank low enough to do it safely.

 

Looks pretty untouched for 29 years to me 😱

Screenshot_20220624-175134.png

Edited by Loddon
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26 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I have a drain  fitted that I know hasn't been used in 11 years and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised  if it has never been used.

Only cleaned the water trap for the first time in 11 years this year got a bit of sludge and a few drops if water. 

I am wary of opening the drain as it has no tap so if I drop the bung I have 350litres of diesel to deal with, one day I might run the tank low enough to do it safely.

 

Looks pretty untouched for 29 years to me 😱

Screenshot_20220624-175134.png

 

It would make life exciting if you dropped the bung - but think how good you will feel if you don't.  

 

Sealing the filler cap and the vent would slow the rate of discharge and generally make life easier.  You could replace the bung with a valve, with the outlet side closed by the bung (or another bung) for future ease.  BSS says something about a requirement to use a tool to empty the tank - not just a permanently fixed lever.

 

 

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Unfortunately my fuel contamination check has revealed a real problem.

I did a quick test siphon with my cheap plastic hand pump thing, sucking out about 2 litres from the bottom of the tank, and as it settled in a plastic container it quickly became apparent that there is definitely some serious contamination going on. 

I returned most of the 2 litres to the tank, and I put the last couple of hundred mils into a glass in order to take a photo, in the hope that someone will recognise what sort of contamination this is. 

There is a deep/dark reddish brown layer at the bottom, and a thin light-brown layer, and then the fuel. There were also a few small bits of solid black crud in there, but very little.

If I got say 50ml {?) of the contaminant in just a 2 litre sample (from the bottom), that does suggest there could be several litres of contamination in there, although my hope is that the contamination layer is below the level where the fuel is extracted into the engine.  

For info, I put about 150ml of marine 16 into the 150 litre (ish) fuel tank about 8 months ago as a preventive measure, hoping it would inhibit the start of diesel bug, but it doesn't seem to have helped, and I would bet there has been contamination for a long time. 

The engine seems to run ok, and the filters weren't excessively clogged at the last service, but in cooler weather it does stop running about 3-5 seconds after the first start, and then it runs ok after a second start- which was what led me to consider the possibility of contamination (although the starting thing might be completely unrelated to contamination of course).

My current thinking is to get a proper pump with a smaller nozzle (the cheapo plastic tube one is about an inch diameter), and fit onto it some pieces of bent pipe (as per the ideas earlier in the thread), so I can reach a wider area of the tank floor. 

If I can remove most of the contamination, I can then run the engine for a month or two until the tank is down to say 30 litres, and then get the remaining fuel and contamination sucked out and properly disposed of.  

 

 

20220628_135918.jpg

Edited by Tony1
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I think that you can get on top of this if you add some biocide additive (Marine 16 possibly) and then suck the bottom of the tank once a week. I suspect you will clear it. I suspect  a lot of that is muck is rusty water and ordinary dirt & dust. Once you can get some in your hand see what it feels like. If it smears out and seems greasy then it is probably bug, but if gritty just dirt.

 

When I first did JennyB and took out many litres of muck & fuel some of it looked like that but with half-yearly suck outs and a biocide it more or less cleared.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that you can get on top of this if you add some biocide additive (Marine 16 possibly) and then suck the bottom of the tank once a week. I suspect you will clear it. I suspect  a lot of that is muck is rusty water and ordinary dirt & dust. Once you can get some in your hand see what it feels like. If it smears out and seems greasy then it is probably bug, but if gritty just dirt.

 

When I first did JennyB and took out many litres of muck & fuel some of it looked like that but with half-yearly suck outs and a biocide it more or less cleared.

 

Thanks very much Tony, I'll bung some more marine 16 in there, and then do a weekly suck out of the bottom layer. I did seem like part of the muddy layer was a bit greasy in texture, so I do think there is at least some living bug in there. 

 

I'm hoping there might be a product that's a bit stronger/more effective than marine 16, since it clearly didnt work 100% when I last used it.

I noticed a product called Clearwinner Purify, that looks like it might do a decent job of killing the bug:

 

https://www.clear-winner.co.uk/products/fuel-storage/

 

Or maybe this stuff: 

 

https://shop.chastheboat.co.uk/products/m68-fuel-biocide-diesel-bug-prevention-and-cure-250ml-as314212

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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Marine 16 make several products, the one you have is probably the Maintenance variant. The do a small bottle that I think is called Sock Treatment that is just a biocide.

 

Your link seem to be for a product with similar properties to the Marine 16 Maintenance, but the blurb does not say if it is emulsifier or  biocide based. I think the last thing you need is an emulsifier until you have the vast majority of the water out of the tank.

 

I just googled "biocide diesel fuel treatment" and came up with a load of hits, including one from ASAP Supplies (AKA Midland Chandlers group member).

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56 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Marine 16 make several products, the one you have is probably the Maintenance variant. The do a small bottle that I think is called Sock Treatment that is just a biocide.

 

Your link seem to be for a product with similar properties to the Marine 16 Maintenance, but the blurb does not say if it is emulsifier or  biocide based. I think the last thing you need is an emulsifier until you have the vast majority of the water out of the tank.

 

I just googled "biocide diesel fuel treatment" and came up with a load of hits, including one from ASAP Supplies (AKA Midland Chandlers group member).

 

Thanks again Tony, that's spot on. I'd just assumed there was only one marine 16 product.

Turns out the one I have is labelled 'Complete', and its blurb doesnt talk about biocidal action, more about prevention.

So no surprise that it didnt get rid of my diesel bug a few months ago. 

Time to get hold of the nasty stuff I reckon. I like the sound of a product whose final two syllables are 'cidal'.  

 

Edited by Tony1
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So, just casually looking at stuff that i could use to build a simple fuel filter. 

 

Pump:    12V ELECTRIC UNIVERSAL PETROL DIESEL FUEL PUMP FACET RED TOP STYLE TRACTOR BOAT | eBay

Filter:      UK Marine Diesel Fuel Filter Water Separator Fuel Water Filter Racor 500FG 500FH | eBay

 

Replacement filters always seem to be the stumbling block. This is the best deal i could find on these:

6x Fuel Filter 10 Micron 2010TM-OR Fit for Volvo 500 Marine Turbine 861014 | eBay

 

This would be basic but i think it could work..... I'd like to have a magnet somewhere - be good to collect the rust bits?  :)

 

anyone have thoughts on this?

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30 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

So, just casually looking at stuff that i could use to build a simple fuel filter. 

 

Pump:    12V ELECTRIC UNIVERSAL PETROL DIESEL FUEL PUMP FACET RED TOP STYLE TRACTOR BOAT | eBay

Filter:      UK Marine Diesel Fuel Filter Water Separator Fuel Water Filter Racor 500FG 500FH | eBay

 

Replacement filters always seem to be the stumbling block. This is the best deal i could find on these:

6x Fuel Filter 10 Micron 2010TM-OR Fit for Volvo 500 Marine Turbine 861014 | eBay

 

This would be basic but i think it could work..... I'd like to have a magnet somewhere - be good to collect the rust bits?  :)

 

anyone have thoughts on this?

 

I wonder if its worth adding a pre-filter to pull out the larger clumps and particles, before your fuel hits that 10 micron filter? 

I pumped out about 15 litres from the bottom of the tank earlier into an open plastic container. I then let it settle for 20 mins before pumping the clean fuel from the top back into the tank. 

Thankfully there wasnt much crud in the fuel that remained in the plastic container, and I decanted it into an old oil container, using a funnel that had a mesh filter in it (not intentionally, it was the only funnel I could get locally at short notice).

The crud in the fuel blocked the mesh filter immediately, so I imagine it might cause issues for a 10 micron filter. 

 

My plan at some point in the next few months is to run the fuel down to say 30 litres (making sure I'm not too far from a marina with diesel stocks), and then siphon everything out of the fuel tank into a large plastic container and let it settle. 

Whilst the fuel is settling I'll spray the inside of the tank with a biocidal fuel treatment, allowing a good dose of it to flow around the tank base, and then I'll pump the clean fuel from the top back into the tank, and arrange suitable disposal of whatever's left in the plastic container. 

 

It seems like something that needs doing once or twice a year to keep it getting too contaiminated with rust, water and general crud.

 

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29 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I wonder if its worth adding a pre-filter to pull out the larger clumps and particles, before your fuel hits that 10 micron filter? 

I pumped out about 15 litres from the bottom of the tank earlier into an open plastic container. I then let it settle for 20 mins before pumping the clean fuel from the top back into the tank. 

Thankfully there wasnt much crud in the fuel that remained in the plastic container, and I decanted it into an old oil container, using a funnel that had a mesh filter in it (not intentionally, it was the only funnel I could get locally at short notice).

The crud in the fuel blocked the mesh filter immediately, so I imagine it might cause issues for a 10 micron filter. 

 

My plan at some point in the next few months is to run the fuel down to say 30 litres (making sure I'm not too far from a marina with diesel stocks), and then siphon everything out of the fuel tank into a large plastic container and let it settle. 

Whilst the fuel is settling I'll spray the inside of the tank with a biocidal fuel treatment, allowing a good dose of it to flow around the tank base, and then I'll pump the clean fuel from the top back into the tank, and arrange suitable disposal of whatever's left in the plastic container. 

 

It seems like something that needs doing once or twice a year to keep it getting too contaiminated with rust, water and general crud.

 

Good point, maybe first stage is into a see through tub/container possibly with a magnet in it to collect the large bits....  

 

If i did this it would be on a cycle, so it takes from the bottom, filters etc and pops it back into the top of the tank. I'd avoid putting into a separate container/emptying the tank, just for ease really...

Edited by robtheplod
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To clean up fuel, in  the absence of a centrifuge,  you need to strain it through a series of filters of increasing fineness-  There is no point in using an expensive, low capacity 5 micron filter to strain out lumps you can see.

 

So as a general principle use a pump with a strainer on  the inlet just  fine enough to protect the pump,  to push the fuel through a decreasing size set of mesh filters, then through a 20 micron to 10 micron to  5 micron cascade of 'paper'  filters.  Ideally  each step will have a differential pressure gauge so you can see when the filter is getting full and  there will be two of each element in parallel so you can clean/change one element of a pair while the other goes on cleaning

 

The mesh filters you can wash out, but be prepared to buy quite lot of fine filters.

The pump you choose will need to generate enough head to push fuel through the filters even when all of them are close to maximum differential pressure.

N

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The reality  is that the centrifuge ensures the higher density cr@p  needs to  some serious G to keep if going round in the centrifuge.  There is nothing to apply that force, apart from the viscosity of the good stuff, so the cr@p  is flung out of the fluid.

 

Waiting for it to settle is only the application of 1G,  in the same direction all the time.  With a mixture of stuff that is very close to together in density you may never get proper separationat 1 G.

N

 

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48 minutes ago, BEngo said:

The reality  is that the centrifuge ensures the higher density cr@p  needs to  some serious G to keep if going round in the centrifuge.  There is nothing to apply that force, apart from the viscosity of the good stuff, so the cr@p  is flung out of the fluid.

 

Waiting for it to settle is only the application of 1G,  in the same direction all the time.  With a mixture of stuff that is very close to together in density you may never get proper separationat 1 G.

N

 

 

I dont doubt that a centrifuge would do a much better job than waiting for gravity, but for me its all about solutions that are proportional (in cost and hassle) to the problem.

Are boaters really going to hire or buy centrifuges for the sole purpose of cleaning their fuel one or twice a year?

If your boats been moored in calm weather for a few days, surely most of the water and rubbish will have sunk to the base of the tank, and can simply be sucked out? In fact when I sucked out a sample of my fuel, the lower layer of water and crap separated out in about 10 minutes.

 

On the subject of professional fuel polishers, I watched a youtube video of a fuel polishing company in action, and I think the final bill came to £650. And that was to clean maybe 150 litres of diesel, which at the time cost maybe £120. 

In fairness their tank was in a bad way- they had about 40 litres of water and crud in there, and they'd had a few engine breakdowns leading up to the fuel cleaning. 

But all these firms have to do is suck out the lower cruddy layer of the fuel from the tank, and discard that. 

With the heavy contamination removed, the amount of stuff needing to be filtered out is greatly reduced, so that fewer filters are needed and less running time for the equipment. 

But the firm preferred to carry on running the whole tank of fuel through their filter system several times over, using many expensive filters in the process and taking a lot longer than I suspect they could have.

There's something about the fuel polishing business- or at least some of them- that feels like a bit of a scam. 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

But the firm preferred to carry on running the whole tank of fuel through their filter system several times over, using many expensive filters in the process and taking a lot longer than I suspect they could have.

 

 

But surely if they kept having to change the filters, then the fuel was not clean,-  you don't stop filtering it until the filters stay clean.

 

Once the cost of 'polishing' gets to the same price per litre as replacing the fuel with 'new' I'd just suck it all out, once some of it has settled, pour it back in. slosh it around and pump it back out. Dispose of.

That can be done with a cheap (£30) 1" fuel pump off ebay

Refil tank

 

 

Part: 12V Portable Electric Fuel Pump
Voltage: 12 volt
Flow Rate: 40 Litres per minute
Technical: 3/4" Port fittings, 175 Watt high power, Dimensions L 20cm H 15cm W8cm. Lift distance 10m, Inlet Diameter: 25mm Outlet Diamter:25mm

FAST TRANSFER HEAVY DUTY POWERFUL 175 watt
Transfer pump suitable for diesel and other non flamable fluids. Heavy duty construction cast iron body. The power cord is equipped with battery terminal clips but you can discard these and hardwire the pump to your vehicle if you wish. Run the engine if using for long periods to conserve the vehicle battery.

 

 

20210921-093248.jpg

 

 

s-l1600.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

But surely if they kept having to change the filters, then the fuel was not clean,-  you don't stop filtering it until the filters stay clean.

 

 

My question is not about them continuing to filter until the fuel was clean. 

I am wondering why they don't just suck out the most heavily contaminated sludge from the base of the tank and discard that, before even starting the filtration process.

If it was feasible to do that (and I dont know if they might have some technical or other constraint), surely you would use many fewer filters, and get the job done much quicker?

I dont want to be unfair, but the cynic in me suspects that they make a profit on the filters, and perhaps there is also an hourly charge on top of the basic charge for just turning up- so that it rather suits them to have their equipment running for a longer time, rather that take a short cut by sucking out 80% of the crap at the start. 

But to be fair, I am totally guessing.

 

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The problem may well be the actual removal and disposal of the contaminated fuel.

 

The polishing units I've seen in use are basically a 'big suitcase' on wheels and are trundled down the towpath to where the boat is moored, job is done and they just end up with a bin-bag- of dirty filters to dispose of,

 

I was fortunate that I was in the marina when I had to have my tank pumped out.

 

They brought a 1000 litre IBC on the fork-truck and dropped in next to my mooring. Friend who has a polishing set-up, suggested taking out the worst (as you suggest) and putting it straight into the IBC,  and not using any filters.

We got 200 litres of water contaminated diesel out, which the fork-truck then took up to the marina 'old oil' disposal tank and poured it in there.

 

Unless you have the means to store / carry a volume of dirty diesel to somewhere it can be disposed of I don't see any way of cleaning without using filters on a re-circulating system.

 

Sample taken from my tank :

 

Diesel on top of water.

 

20210911-150308.jpg

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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19 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

My question is not about them continuing to filter until the fuel was clean. 

I am wondering why they don't just suck out the most heavily contaminated sludge from the base of the tank and discard that, before even starting the filtration process.

If it was feasible to do that (and I dont know if they might have some technical or other constraint), surely you would use many fewer filters, and get the job done much quicker?

I dont want to be unfair, but the cynic in me suspects that they make a profit on the filters, and perhaps there is also an hourly charge on top of the basic charge for just turning up- so that it rather suits them to have their equipment running for a longer time, rather that take a short cut by sucking out 80% of the crap at the start. 

But to be fair, I am totally guessing.

 

 

Without having witnessed a fuel polishing company in operation I am afraid I tend to fell much the same. I know the results of annual sucking liquid from the bottom of the tank  water and muck wise. This makes me suspect that in the UK inland boating the whole fuel polishing thing has been over promoted. Of course there will be cases of very bad bug growth, but probably related to never clearing the bottom of the tank and long term storage of unused fuel. These cases may need the fuel polished and even the tank accessed/cut open to allow hot steam cleaning of all inner surfaces, but I doubt there are enough to keep all the fuel polishing setups in work.

 

Edited to add: I don't think Alan can legitimately relate his experience to typical inland boating. His seems more a case of massive amounts of relatively clean water getting into his tank rather than a long slow build up of water within lots of time for bug growth to develop. His tanks are, I believe, far larger than typical for members here. I have already said elsewhere that I use four pint milk cartons to store the liquid removed from the base of the tank and I think six was the maximum used. After settling, I doubt there was more than six pints (1.5 containers) that needed disposal. After the first annual session it was usually about a pint or so. That was easily disposed of in with my waste engine oil at the local tip.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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