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Overplating on Hull for a fairly new Boat — a red flag?


jpegbolton

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Hey all, hope we're good.

 

Me and my partner are looking to get out of bricks and move on to the water, continuous cruising. After a couple months, we've found a boat that's just what we're after, and within our budget. It was built in 2005, the only thing is its got some overplating on the hull which i've hears is a bit of a bad sign for a relatively new boat. It hasnt had a survey done on it (would obviosuly get one if we're serious about it), but the owner and a local surveyor who informally looked at it reckon its down to a bad batch of steel on the hull section because the rest of the hull is totally fine. If thats the case then i'm worried the hull it's going to keep deteriorating. Do you think this is something we could keep on top of with dilligent blacking (maybe even epoxy), or is the overplating on a relatively new boat too much of a red flag?

 

Any guidance welcome, cheers,

 

J

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2 minutes ago, jpegbolton said:

Hey all, hope we're good.

 

Me and my partner are looking to get out of bricks and move on to the water, continuous cruising. After a couple months, we've found a boat that's just what we're after, and within our budget. It was built in 2005, the only thing is its got some overplating on the hull which i've hears is a bit of a bad sign for a relatively new boat. It hasnt had a survey done on it (would obviosuly get one if we're serious about it), but the owner and a local surveyor who informally looked at it reckon its down to a bad batch of steel on the hull section because the rest of the hull is totally fine. If thats the case then i'm worried the hull it's going to keep deteriorating. Do you think this is something we could keep on top of with dilligent blacking (maybe even epoxy), or is the overplating on a relatively new boat too much of a red flag?

 

Any guidance welcome, cheers,

 

J

 

 

Impossible to say really. I doubt the surveyor who said that knows either and just made that up on the spot for you as it sounds credible.

 

A lot depends on the price I'd say. Is it cheap enough to be worth the risk to you? If not, then buy a different boat without the rust problems, I'd suggest.

 

Getting it two-packed might help, but there are never any guarantees if you make something out of steel then immerse it in water for decades!

 

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14 minutes ago, jpegbolton said:

Hey all, hope we're good.

 

Me and my partner are looking to get out of bricks and move on to the water, continuous cruising. After a couple months, we've found a boat that's just what we're after, and within our budget. It was built in 2005, the only thing is its got some overplating on the hull which i've hears is a bit of a bad sign for a relatively new boat. It hasnt had a survey done on it (would obviosuly get one if we're serious about it), but the owner and a local surveyor who informally looked at it reckon its down to a bad batch of steel on the hull section because the rest of the hull is totally fine. If thats the case then i'm worried the hull it's going to keep deteriorating. Do you think this is something we could keep on top of with dilligent blacking (maybe even epoxy), or is the overplating on a relatively new boat too much of a red flag?

 

Any guidance welcome, cheers,

 

J

 

Boats can go from 6mm steel to 1mm in a year - its not about the 'quality of the steel, its about the waters they are 'sat in', where they are (in a marina, bank side in a rural location etc etc), are there boats moored adjacent to this boat, and how the boat is maintained.

 

17 years is not particularly unusual for requiring some overplating, but, neither is 50 years old and requiring no overplating.

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Its 17 years old.  That is plenty old enough for it to be a colander.  Can you be specific about where the bad area is and how big? I would be very concerned if it was the base plate, a patch on the side at water level would be less worrying.

 

There are lots of old wives tales about bad bits of steel, most turn out to be excuses for lack of maintenance IMHO.

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It's certainly an amber flag and I'd ignore the opinion of the owner and the local surveyor. Sounds like uneducated guesswork to me, in most cases like this the cause isn't known but variation in the steel is one of the least likely factors and will not be the primary cause even if there is a grain of truth in it.

 

I note you say this boat meets your requirements and is within your budget. This is key if no other boats that meet your requirements are within your budget. That's the sort of trade-off you need if you are thinking of buying an over-plated boat. If you can find a non-overplated boat that also meets your requirements and is within your budget that's likely to be your best bet. Either way I'd suggest you do get it surveyed. You want to know that the over-plating has been done properly.

 

For what it's worth I own a boat that was overplated at 18 years of age, and that was 35 years ago.

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Just t one of the problems is that anyone can appoint themselves a “surveyor “ letting the seller advise is also a great idea.??

In an effort to help let me tell you of some other classic mistakes - refitting to your needs - using a surveyor suggested by a broker- selling a bricks and mortar and becoming a cc. - buying a replated boat of any age. Only my opinions of course!

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4 minutes ago, Mike Jordan said:

 - buying a replated boat of any age. Only my opinions of course!

Unfortunately this si sometimes governed by your budget, buy one that's overplated or buy one that isnt that needs overplating.

 

As far as the OP is concerned I dont see how any surveyor could put it down to a bad section of steel unless the boat is out of the water and the whole hull checked

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Jordan said:

Just t one of the problems is that anyone can appoint themselves a “surveyor “ letting the seller advise is also a great idea.??

In an effort to help let me tell you of some other classic mistakes - refitting to your needs - using a surveyor suggested by a broker- selling a bricks and mortar and becoming a cc. - buying a replated boat of any age. Only my opinions of course!

I don't have a clue why this came up twice.

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It could be a good thing. 17 years isn't that old but its old enough for small issues to develop. It might be that a (for example) 2nd or subsequent owner was inexperienced, together with an overzealous boatyard touting for work, who advised a small overplating of something or other, and none-the-wiser, the owners got the work done. Or it was a modification which entailed a small overplate of some or other previous feature.

 

Of course, until you actually have eyes-on the boat, preferably out of the water by an experienced surveyor you're paying for (ie not the seller's), you simply don't know. Have you seen the boat yet? Does it look like its been meticulously maintained in the areas you can see, or neglected? 

 

Boat builder, specification/length, age and condition are the main things that affect value. At 17+ years old age becomes less important and condition more so.

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9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its 17 years old.  That is plenty old enough for it to be a colander.  Can you be specific about where the bad area is and how big? I would be very concerned if it was the base plate, a patch on the side at water level would be less worrying.

 

There are lots of old wives tales about bad bits of steel, most turn out to be excuses for lack of maintenance IMHO.

 

Hey Tracy, see below — it's plated like this on both sides. This was done last year, it was out the water and the rest of the hull was checked. Interesting that 'bad batch' is a common refrain. What do you think?

 

2085408906_Screenshot2022-06-19at20_46_31.png.86d601a63e112183b49da03b3b32d1f3.png

6 hours ago, Paul C said:

It could be a good thing. 17 years isn't that old but its old enough for small issues to develop. It might be that a (for example) 2nd or subsequent owner was inexperienced, together with an overzealous boatyard touting for work, who advised a small overplating of something or other, and none-the-wiser, the owners got the work done. Or it was a modification which entailed a small overplate of some or other previous feature.

 

Of course, until you actually have eyes-on the boat, preferably out of the water by an experienced surveyor you're paying for (ie not the seller's), you simply don't know. Have you seen the boat yet? Does it look like its been meticulously maintained in the areas you can see, or neglected? 

 

Boat builder, specification/length, age and condition are the main things that affect value. At 17+ years old age becomes less important and condition more so.

Hey Paul, thanks for this. Rest of the boat seems great, it was bought new and was an owner fit out, all looking good on it. I've put a picture of the overplating in the comment above — i'm no expert on plating or assessing quality of welding, so not sure how to read it.

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4 minutes ago, jpegbolton said:

 

Hey Tracy, see below — it's plated like this on both sides. This was done last year, it was out the water and the rest of the hull was checked. Interesting that 'bad batch' is a common refrain. What do you think?

 

2085408906_Screenshot2022-06-19at20_46_31.png.86d601a63e112183b49da03b3b32d1f3.png

Is it an integral water tank there or a separate tank inside?  That area could have been cut out and a new plate let in as there are no knees or braces in that area. It would have been a much better repair.

How thick is that plate? It looks less than 6mm in the photo.

It would of looked much better if the plate had been up to the stem post and up to the rubbing strip. 

I would of expected an anode in that area, are there/were there  none fitted?

Its an area where you could expect damage, maybe this was the reason for replacement?

Its a rough job IMHO, I would not accept such a repair.

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36 minutes ago, jpegbolton said:

i'm no expert on plating or assessing quality of welding, so not sure how to read it.

 

It looks to be a very poor job - Looks as if it may have been done by a 'mobile fabricator' certainly is not up to a normal acceptable 'boat standard'.

 

I would not have paid him for that work.

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2 hours ago, jpegbolton said:

 

Hey Tracy, see below — it's plated like this on both sides. This was done last year, it was out the water and the rest of the hull was checked. Interesting that 'bad batch' is a common refrain. What do you think?

 

 

Hey Paul, thanks for this. Rest of the boat seems great, it was bought new and was an owner fit out, all looking good on it. I've put a picture of the overplating in the comment above — i'm no expert on plating or assessing quality of welding, so not sure how to read it.

 

That's very strange. I wonder if there was some corrosion from the inside or whether there was impact damage.

 

I think this business of 'bad steel' is nonsense spoken by folks who know little or nothing of steel and in any case how would a boat come to be fabricated with a small area on each side of the bow built in steel from one source and everything around it with steel from another?

 

ETA - if it was done last year the owner should be able to provide evidence in the form of an inspection or survey report and some photographs of the condition that required treatment.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

It would of looked much better if the plate had been up to the stem post and up to the rubbing strip. 

No. The overplating should stop short of the rubbing strip. If it had been welded to that, the integrity of the repair would be dependent on how well the rubbing strip has been welded to the hull over its whole length. Its not clear from the photo, but the rubbing band may only be welded intermittently along its lower edge.

12 hours ago, jpegbolton said:

but the owner and a local surveyor who informally looked at it reckon its down to a bad batch of steel on the hull section because the rest of the hull is totally fine.

And what tests have they done on the allegedly bad piece? None? I thought so. It's a bullshit opinion.

Edited by David Mack
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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No. The overplating should stop short of the rubbing strip. If it had been welded to that, the integrity of the repair would be dependent on how well the rubbing strip has been welded to the hull over its whole length. Its mot clear from the photo, but the rubbing band may only be welded intermittently along its lower edge.

And what tests have they done on the allegedly bad piece? None? I thought so. It's a bullshit opinion.

The overplating doesn't look to be the best done job, but if the rest of the hull satisfies the surveyor then the risk might be worth taking, if the price you are paying reflects that risk. In the worst case you might have to have this section redone properly, but as only the well deck and bow locker will be affected, and not any of the fitted out cabin, the job would be relatively straightforward.

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8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No. The overplating should stop short of the rubbing strip. If it had been welded to that, the integrity of the repair would be dependent on how well the rubbing strip has been welded to the hull over its whole length. Its not clear from the photo, but the rubbing band may only be welded intermittently along its lower edge.

And what tests have they done on the allegedly bad piece? None? I thought so. It's a bullshit opinion.

 

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The overplating doesn't look to be the best done job, but if the rest of the hull satisfies the surveyor then the risk might be worth taking, if the price you are paying reflects that risk. In the worst case you might have to have this section redone properly, but as only the well deck and bow locker will be affected, and not any of the fitted out cabin, the job would be relatively straightforward.

 

Very forthright David!

 

But yes, it isn't really an overplated boat. It's a boat that's had a poor repair carried out, but one that could be easily redone so it likely isn't much of a risk at all. Just needs a sensible price tag.

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I am sorry to totally disagree with you about bad steel.

Since British Steel closed down in England,  boat builders have had to buy new steel plate from Russia and China. But with Russia being at war with Ukraine, another market for steel had to be found in Brazil.

 

They have our UK boat builders over a barrel on cost of steel & every time a new order of steel is ordered it has gone up in price, making overplating more than double in price.

 

For many years the UK has been sending our scrap steel to Russia and now China, not just nbs, but Marine cargo boats too. Our steel has rustical corrosion in it - sent abroad for the steel to be smelted & corrosion removed.

 

However China & Brazil has been re-selling us mild steel with rustical corrosion still contained within the steel & that is the reason why 2 year old nbs are corroding so badly.  We can see rustical corrosion in the new steel plates.

 

You are better buying an older hull with British Steel, that has been well maintained.

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5 hours ago, Lindapaws said:

I am sorry to totally disagree with you about bad steel.

Since British Steel closed down in England,  boat builders have had to buy new steel plate from Russia and China. But with Russia being at war with Ukraine, another market for steel had to be found in Brazil.

 

They have our UK boat builders over a barrel on cost of steel & every time a new order of steel is ordered it has gone up in price, making overplating more than double in price.

 

For many years the UK has been sending our scrap steel to Russia and now China, not just nbs, but Marine cargo boats too. Our steel has rustical corrosion in it - sent abroad for the steel to be smelted & corrosion removed.

 

However China & Brazil has been re-selling us mild steel with rustical corrosion still contained within the steel & that is the reason why 2 year old nbs are corroding so badly.  We can see rustical corrosion in the new steel plates.

 

You are better buying an older hull with British Steel, that has been well maintained.

Sorry, but I've never heard of rustical corrosion, are you an expert in steel, as I would think that recycling would involve melting the steel scrap, removing slag, and producing new steel. 

How is the current cost of steel or country of origin related to the quality ? 

The cost of most commodities has risen dramatically, that is the state of world economy.

Edited by LadyG
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Ive sent 120 ton of steel for scrap last two years,some buried in salty ground for decades.....plenty of rust there.....no comment from the scrapyard.....except ...keep it coming............actually the worst steel Ive seen for corrosion is Australian steel......and the best is 1950s British steel....I base this on old machinery I have ,like my Coles crane.

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Steelwork isn't my engineering specialism, but my "engineer's eye" is offended by the awful plate repair in the photo above. Was that really it finished? I agree with others above - if there's no other reason to reject the boat, I'd want a trusted boatyard's price for removing that todge up and for doing the job right to use as a basis for calculating a fair price.

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7 hours ago, Lindapaws said:

I am sorry to totally disagree with you about bad steel.

Since British Steel closed down in England,  boat builders have had to buy new steel plate from Russia and China. But with Russia being at war with Ukraine, another market for steel had to be found in Brazil.

 

They have our UK boat builders over a barrel on cost of steel & every time a new order of steel is ordered it has gone up in price, making overplating more than double in price.

 

For many years the UK has been sending our scrap steel to Russia and now China, not just nbs, but Marine cargo boats too. Our steel has rustical corrosion in it - sent abroad for the steel to be smelted & corrosion removed.

 

However China & Brazil has been re-selling us mild steel with rustical corrosion still contained within the steel & that is the reason why 2 year old nbs are corroding so badly.  We can see rustical corrosion in the new steel plates.

 

You are better buying an older hull with British Steel, that has been well maintained.

 

The British steel industry hasn't had major change in it's capacity for about 20 years during which time it has retained the ability to produce around 40% or so of the UK demand for primary products (such as the plates and sections from which narrowboats are made).

 

Until Brexit around the same amount was imported from the EU, with the remaining 20% or so from outside the EU of which Russia was the largest supplier and China still a small but growing amount. Brexit and the war in Ukraine will indeed have had an effect on the market price but the notion that British steel has managed to produce the world's finest product while enduring a long slow and what will ultimately be terminal decline with decades of industrial unrest, closure threats and little investment in new facilities is highly unlikely. China on the other hand has a lot of modern steelmaking facilities and allies a rigour for methodical process with Western expertise. That's why the 'British' steel industry is owned by Asian companies.

 

I've posted elsewhere on this forum about steelmaking processes. There is no steel produced in the world that does not use scrap in some part of the process, and some processes use it as the sole feed material. It's not possible to melt the feed material to 2000+ celsius, blast it with oxygen and still retain the rust that went into the steelmaking vessel.  The resulting products all meet the same global standard and are assured by the same body to enable steel to be a globally traded commodity.

 

The only boats we can probably safely say are built with Chinese steel - unless you are a boatbuilder and can post the certificates of conformity - are those imported by East West. I'm not aware they have any particular problems. And in any case there has long been vast quantities of Chinese steel imported to the UK in finished products.

 

The other certainty is that all mild steel will rust if not fully protected. Modern steel is chemically and mechanically far superior to older steel, it's just in a narrowboat those properties are barely tested, hence the narrowboat world only seems able to comment on the 'quality' of steel in terms of corrosion. That's something a metallurgist or engineer would never think about for a mild steel, they'd just paint it, specify stainless, or as happens in some cases, just live with it.

 

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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9 hours ago, john.k said:

Ive sent 120 ton of steel for scrap last two years,some buried in salty ground for decades.....plenty of rust there.....no comment from the scrapyard.....except ...keep it coming............actually the worst steel Ive seen for corrosion is Australian steel......and the best is 1950s British steel....I base this on old machinery I have ,like my Coles crane.

 

When you say "worst for corrosion/best for corrosion" do you mean its hardly corroded at all? Or corroded the most?

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