New shower install, waste water handling

[Sir Percy]

Morning,

 

Leisurely Sunday morning planning for a new shower install, waste handling in particular. Nearest skin fitting is approx 6 feet distant from shower waste.

 

No constraints on space or previous install considerations, so what are my options?

 

Would it be better to have integrated tank/pump or separate?

 

Would I just need an isolating valve between the shower and tank?

 

I notice that some tanks have see-through top covers. How useful are these?

 

Appreciate your thoughts...

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, Sir Percy said:

Morning,

 

Leisurely Sunday morning planning for a new shower install, waste handling in particular. Nearest skin fitting is approx 6 feet distant from shower waste.

 

No constraints on space or previous install considerations, so what are my options?

 

Would it be better to have integrated tank/pump or separate?

 

Would I just need an isolating valve between the shower and tank?

 

I notice that some tanks have see-through top covers. How useful are these?

 

Appreciate your thoughts...

 

 

 

 

For goodness sake forget the sump with integral bilge pump type shower pump. They have a  terrible name for failing, leaking into bilges and so on. Fit a Whale gulper shower pump and be done with it. If you can, get a swan neck is close to the shower to try to  minimize back leakage from the pipework when the pump is turned off.

[Tracy D'arth]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

For goodness sake forget the sump with integral bilge pump type shower pump. They have a  terrible name for failing, leaking into bilges and so on. Fit a Whale gulper shower pump and be done with it. If you can, get a swan neck is close to the shower to try to  minimize back leakage from the pipework when the pump is turned off.

Good advice, those plastic box pumps are rubbish.

 

Ensure that the length of hose between the shower waste and the pump is twice the length from the pump to the skin fitting. Then the run back from the vertical part will not refill the shower tray.  Forget non return valves too, they are a maintenance nightmare with hair etc.

[BEngo]

All the advice you will ever need about a shower install is in the two posts above.

 

N

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Ensure that the length of hose between the shower waste and the pump is twice the length from the pump to the skin fitting. Then the run back from the vertical part will not refill the shower tray.   

That is exactly what Graham Boothe said in his book of boat fitting

[Tracy D'arth]

54 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is exactly what Graham Boothe said in his book of boat fitting

Now you know where he got it from!

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Good advice, those plastic box pumps are rubbish.

 

Ensure that the length of hose between the shower waste and the pump is twice the length from the pump to the skin fitting. Then the run back from the vertical part will not refill the shower tray.  Forget non return valves too, they are a maintenance nightmare with hair etc.

 

I am not sure if that will prevent run back 100%. On JennyB water always leaked back into the shower over a few winter weeks. I put it down to no swan neck and rain finding its way into the hole in the hull.

[Sir Percy]

Thanks all.

 

Would a 'swan neck' be a configuration of the hose, something like this:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174340321353

 

Or a specific component? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

It is simply a hose bent so that the top of the 'swans neck' is higher than the outlet so water cannot run back in.

 

This should give you an idea (on the exhaust system but the principle is the same)

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[PD1964]

  My bath plug/drain is roughly the same distance as your dimensions, I have very little back run of water with a good gulper pump, I’ve seen a few shower drains using a normal domestic water pump and never understood why?

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

  My bath plug/drain is roughly the same distance as your dimensions, I have very little back run of water with a good gulper pump, I’ve seen a few shower drains using a normal domestic water pump and never understood why?

Probably cos they are cheaper than a gulper and plenty of boat fitting places have them in stock alongside water pump fittings for fit outs? 

[ditchcrawler]

47 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

  My bath plug/drain is roughly the same distance as your dimensions, I have very little back run of water with a good gulper pump, I’ve seen a few shower drains using a normal domestic water pump and never understood why?

I did because that was what I could get easily at the time. I didn't know they made a 24 volt gulper for walk in baths then.

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, PD1964 said:

  My bath plug/drain is roughly the same distance as your dimensions, I have very little back run of water with a good gulper pump, I’ve seen a few shower drains using a normal domestic water pump and never understood why?

 

At least one maker marketed what looked for all the world like a domestic water pump as a shower pump.  Don't ask me why, but they did - just asking for valve problems.

[PD1964]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

At least one maker marketed what looked for all the world like a domestic water pump as a shower pump.  Don't ask me why, but they did - just asking for valve problems.

  Just like I don’t see any necessity for a swan neck anti syphon pipe configuration near the outlet, if the outlet is the correct height above the water line. 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, PD1964 said:

  Just like I don’t see any necessity for a swan neck anti syphon pipe configuration near the outlet, if the outlet is the correct height above the water line. 

 

Neither do I, my idea was a similar height swan neck close to the actual shower so little water can flow back.

[PD1964]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Neither do I, my idea was a similar height swan neck close to the actual shower so little water can flow back.

You will always get some flow back from the actual pump/pipe work once the pump is switched off,  but I’ve never had enough to come up from the plug trap. 

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 Forget non return valves too, they are a maintenance nightmare with hair etc.

 

Every whale gulper pump I've fitted (ok only 2 🤣) has it's own NRV. 

[ditchcrawler]

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

At least one maker marketed what looked for all the world like a domestic water pump as a shower pump.  Don't ask me why, but they did - just asking for valve problems.

Mine is identical to a waterpump, probably Jabsco but its over 20 years ago since I fitted it, the only difference is no pressure switch 

[Tracy D'arth]

20 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Every whale gulper pump I've fitted (ok only 2 🤣) has it's own NRV. 

All impulse pumps that maintain a head of water of course have valves which are non return valves. They would not work otherwise. I was referring to an NRV in the discharge line.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[blackrose]

10 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

All impulse pumps that maintain a head of water of course have valves which are non return valves. They would not work otherwise. I was referring to an NRV in the discharge line.

 

I thought the NRV in the gulper was in the discharge line?

https://www.oceanchandlery.com/whale-ak2050-replacement-head-service-kit-for-gulper-320-220-and-ic.html

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by blackrose

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I thought the NRV in the gulper was in the discharge line?

https://www.oceanchandlery.com/whale-ak2050-replacement-head-service-kit-for-gulper-320-220-and-ic.html

 

It is a vital valve without which you do not have a pump. The water would just go backwards and forwards.  It is not an auxiliary NRV.

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

It is a vital valve without which you do not have a pump. The water would just go backwards and forwards.  It is not an auxiliary NRV.

 

Exactly, that's the point I was making. The whale gulper already has a NRV. I'm not sure why anyone would bother to fit an auxiliary NRV to a whale gulper when there's already one there? 

[Tracy D'arth]

15 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Exactly, that's the point I was making. The whale gulper already has a NRV. I'm not sure why anyone would bother to fit an auxiliary NRV to a whale gulper when there's already one there? 

Its a duck bill valve, it will let water run back slowly after the pump stops if there is a small head of water causing a slight pressure. If the pressure was higher it probably would seal better.

Folk stick NRVs, usually ball or flap valves, in discharge pipes to prevent this slow return of water, they cause untold problems when the hair gets stuck in them.

 

I would expect there to be a similar valve the other way round in the inlet of the pump too to prevent the water being pushed back into the tray with every pump stroke. I have never taken a Whale Gulper apart but self pump-out pumps are similar impulse pumps and they have 2 duck bill valves.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Tracy D'arth