Advice on buying a 75% finished sailaway

[Spudwynk]

We are looking to buy our first narrowboat and have been to look at a sailway which is 7 years old and about 70% finished. Two area of concern for me

1. Owner had boat paintwork taken back and reprised. We could see patches of rust coming through and also there were signs of the original colour in places. Should we be worried about the rust or is that something that would get sorted by the painter? We would have it hand painted.

 

2. Boat was surveyed a month ago and sale fell through. One of the issues which the seller will fix is that the drainage holes in the gas locker are too low. 3 adults stood in the well deck today had the holes under the water and water trickling in and that's with no water in the tank. Broker says this will be fixed, current holes sealed, holes drilled higher up and gas bottle mounted higher on paving slabs in line with the new holes. Should I be worried about this? Will a fix to the holes make them watertight?  How do I know the boat is floating evenly in the water and doesn't need a change in ballast? Is there anything else I should be concerned about here? Quite a bit of rust in the gas locker that the broker says is treatable.

 

We will obviously get our own survey as well but don't want to buy a doozy especially as we're still learning about the maintenance side having hired a few times. Thanks

[David Mack]

Is it really 70% finished? Or are you going to end up redoing a lot of what has already been done? Fine if the price you are paying reflects that, but be aware that the work yet to be done may amount to more than 30%.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Spudwynk said:

We are looking to buy our first narrowboat and have been to look at a sailway which is 7 years old and about 70% finished. Two area of concern for me

 

 

The concern for me is that as it is not a 'finished' boat all of the RCD / RCR regulations come into force until 5 years after 'it is placed on the market' (which is usually interpreted as being 'finished, usable and put in the water'.

 

Does the boat come with the RCD paperwork by the hull builder to the level it was sold by them ?

Does it then have the RCD paperwork or certification that the fit out (to date) has been undertaken in compliance with the RCD requirements ?

[Spudwynk]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The concern for me is that as it is not a 'finished' boat all of the RCD / RCR regulations come into force until 5 years after 'it is placed on the market' (which is usually interpreted as being 'finished, usable and put in the water'.

 

Does the boat come with the RCD paperwork by the hull builder to the level it was sold by them ?

Does it then have the RCD paperwork or certification that the fit out (to date) has been undertaken in compliance with the RCD requirements ?

It does have BSS to 2025

[LadyG]

The broker is wanting you to buy the thing, take what he says with a pinch of salt, but remember, the previous owner has walked away, and you may have to strip quite a lot back to find out how much work is really needed.

Rust is serious, all pervasive. I have had a quote for a quick paint job at £4K, so a proper job, is going to be more. There is no point doing a cosmetic job if you are keeping the boat. And of course, you will be lucky to get your boat painted this year. 

I would phone a few surveyors just to ask about availability and this gas locker business. Does not sound a great boat for someone with limited experience, limited time, and limited cash, but you never know

Is it on a website?

Do you know the builder?

Boats tend to depreciate most in the early years, and then slowly level out, but the market must be very difficult for even a good surveyor to determine current value. New boats are going up due to inflation.  I believe that the price asked may be more than the price expected, ten percent, or five percent, or two percent, maybe.

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Spudwynk said:

It does have BSS to 2025

 

The BSS is not the RCD.

 

The RCD is a certification that the boat has been built to acceptable standards.

 

The BSS simply says that the boat is unlikley to kill or injure anyone passing by the boat (it doesn't mean that the boat is safe for those on the boat)

 

 

 

From the BSS website :

 

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned equally by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Does the boat come with the RCD paperwork by the hull builder to the level it was sold by them ?

Does it then have the RCD paperwork or certification that the fit out (to date) has been undertaken in compliance with the RCD requirements ?

If not, the vendor may well be breaking the law by putting this boat up for sale. Do you want the hassle of sorting that?

[nicknorman]

If the gas locker vents are too low, blocked off and new ones cut a bit higher, I don’t think putting some paving slabs in is acceptable. The basic aim is to prevent any gas pooling at the bottom of the gas locker and paving slabs are not going to totally eliminate air space below the vents. It is not about how high the gas bottles are, it is about not having any space below the vents. Plus, if and when water does get in, it won’t be able to drain, it will sit around the paving slabs and rust the locker base until it is holed and gas can fall through into the bilge. That point alone seems to be being “glossed over” and as such it would ring alarm bells.

[reg]

How do you know its 70%?

I built mine from a bare shell it's relatively easy to think you are 70% done by looking at the bulk work that was done but in reality there can be much, much more work to be done.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

The gas locker MUST have drains, holes, at the lowest point to ensure that gas is vented overboard. If the locker is partially filled with water EXTRA holes should be cut at the water level. The locker may then have a complete new floor welded in at that level or be totally filled with inert material to that level so that no gas can pool in the locker.

 

 

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

If the gas locker vents are too low, blocked off and new ones cut a bit higher, I don’t think putting some paving slabs in is acceptable. The basic aim is to prevent any gas pooling at the bottom of the gas locker and paving slabs are not going to totally eliminate air space below the vents. It is not about how high the gas bottles are, it is about not having any space below the vents. Plus, if and when water does get in, it won’t be able to drain, it will sit around the paving slabs and rust the locker base until it is holed and gas can fall through into the bilge. That point alone seems to be being “glossed over” and as such it would ring alarm bells.

 Agreed, it is sounding like an accident waiting to happen.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The gas locker MUST have drains, holes, at the lowest point to ensure that gas is vented overboard. If the locker is partially filled with water EXTRA holes should be cut at the water level. The locker may then have a complete new floor welded in at that level or be totally filled with inert material to that level so that no gas can pool in the locker.

 

 

A better and fully compliant solution is to convert the holes into vertical slots which start at the floor of the locker and rise to an inch or two above the deepest waterline with tanks full, boat loaded etc. That way, the gas locker becomes a 'flooded gas locker' and whatever 'height' in the water the boat happens to be at the time, the locker drain(s) continue to function.

[Higgs]

It's always seemed like poor design, having gas drain holes likely to be below the waterline. But, if the price is right, it's possible to live with a few annoying features. Be prepared to walk away from the deal, and get the owner's promise to fix things in writing. However, that could still be a pain in the arse, if you have to chase people to satisfy agreements. It isn't compensation for what should have been a better job done on the boat. The owner's promise has no real value. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Higgs

[Jen-in-Wellies]

9 hours ago, Spudwynk said:

We are looking to buy our first narrowboat and have been to look at a sailway which is 7 years old and about 70% finished.

The first 95% of the work in fitting out a narrowboat takes 95% of the time. The last 5% of the work takes the other 95% of the time. At 70%, there is still a lot to do. I fitted out a narrowboat, so I know. Work out how much money it will take to do the last 30% and double it. If that still seems like a reasonable amount, then double it again. If you are intending to use this boat as a live aboard, then plan to do as much work as you can before moving on. Once on board, moving stuff from one place to another and back when working will take most of your working time.

 

53 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

A better and fully compliant solution is to convert the holes into vertical slots which start at the floor of the locker and rise to an inch or two above the deepest waterline with tanks full, boat loaded etc. That way, the gas locker becomes a 'flooded gas locker' and whatever 'height' in the water the boat happens to be at the time, the locker drain(s) continue to function.

This is a common way of getting a compliant gas locker and works and is safe. The owner has more maintenance work to do keeping the inside of the locker painted and rust free, but that is it. A rusted through gas locker floor is a BSS fail for obvious reasons.

Jen

[Spudwynk]

Thanks everyone.  You've convinced me we're too novice to take this on.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Spudwynk said:

Thanks everyone.  You've convinced me we're too novice to take this on.

 

 

 

[reg]

4 hours ago, Spudwynk said:

Thanks everyone.  You've convinced me we're too novice to take this on.

A wise decision.

I have somewhere my original spreadsheets with costings for tools, fittings and materials. Is frightening the number of tools you need and the combined cost of them. Remember you would be taking on multiple trades. One example I recall is my surprise that the cost of the main line out was double the original projection when you costed in the varnish, stains, screws, brushes etc etc.

 

The other significant problem, alluded to by Jen In Wellies, is that to cut and prepare a single sheet of wood the process often involves moving around all sorts of gubbins inside the boat this can simply be just to access the stock, in addition you need to clear the area you are fitting out, befor you even do that you need to ensure that you have clear passage to any tools and materials you may need. You then have to decide where you are going to cut the sheet inside or out, inside may be necessary but you will regret that decision later, outside is a hassle for various reasons.

 

It's not simple but it is very rewarding and also you have all the tools you'll need for future maintenance, unfortunately you have limited space to keep them on-board.

[harrybsmith]

I'm not super keen on the idea of a wet gas locker, here's the result of a boat that was built with one, rusted from the inside out and eventually sank. Essentially now requires a complete new stern. With slightly iffy modern steel quality and some neglect of maintenance this could be the position you end up in, given a few years. Plenty of boats out there, I feel you're probably making the right call 

[jtylr]

I bought a boat this time lasted year and surveyor flagged the height of vents during survey.

 

Due to the likely cost of correcting them I chose to patch them up and had a new locker fabricated on the stern deck. 

 

Old locker is to be repurposed as a water tank directed to hot taps, wm + shower, once I can be bothered to climb inside and sort it out.
 

 

[sueb]

If the base of the gas locker is raised a smaller gas bottle may be needed.

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, sueb said:

If the base of the gas locker is raised a smaller gas bottle may be needed.

 

Or, to put it another way, the walls of the gas locker must be higher than the gas regulator (or valve if that is higher)

[blackrose]

On 13/06/2022 at 05:54, MtB said:

 

A better and fully compliant solution is to convert the holes into vertical slots which start at the floor of the locker and rise to an inch or two above the deepest waterline with tanks full, boat loaded etc. That way, the gas locker becomes a 'flooded gas locker' and whatever 'height' in the water the boat happens to be at the time, the locker drain(s) continue to function.

 

And then what do you do about the submerged floor of the gas locker rusting through? You could drain and dry it out to keep it regularly painted at the same time as blacking the boat, but sounds like a botch that will end up causing more problems than it solves. 

[chevron]

First boat i ever had surveyed to buy was three years old self fit out by a carpenter woodwork was amazing. But on looking at it I could see quite a few defects behind the woodwork. Knocked them down by ten thousand and had a full survey carried out. Several defects came up some dangerous in the fitting out process and the value put on the boat was another ten thousand less than I had offered. The surveyor said that the value of a self fit out is a lot less per foot than that of the professionals. I would value the boat as a sail away boat plus a little extra for any major components on the boat and be prepared to remove and refit a lot of the interior. It could be very frustrating process to finish the boat unless purchased at a good price.