Jump to content

Compost toilets: separating fact from fiction (workshop)


Kate_MM

Featured Posts

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I keep trying to reply and losing the draft, I have no idea why. And it's getting late. I was referring to the 2015 guidance but checking I find there is a more recent release https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-risk-waste-positions-effluent-and-sludge/treating-solid-waste-from-composting-toilets-lrwp-90 although the 2011 guidance you quote covers slightly different things so it would be interesting to find out whether it is still in force. I can't find it referenced on any of the current guidance (which isn't to say it isn't there, gov.uk can be a bit of a rabbit hole!)

Currently trying to make sense of the permit issue - it seems generally to be required for far greater amounts of material than the average boater will produce so I'm interested to know - when you had your licence or exemption permit what did it cover? Everything I'm reading at the moment seems to include all grey and black water. 

 

 

I'm guessing you are refering to these 'guidance' papers, which were all I could find when 'looking into' composting toilets - or as we now say "separating toilets"

 

You may have noted that to dispose of the liquid (urine) on land requires a licence or exemption permit from the EA - we had to have one at home, it is was something like £5 per annum.

 

Boaters disposing of the urine by pouring into hedge bottoms are probably unaware that they need a licence to do so.

Extract :

 

The separated liquid fraction can be:

• stored in a sealed tank and collected by a waste contractor for disposal at a STW

• discharged to land as is the case with traditional septic tanks. Where a discharge to land or water is being made an exemption or environmental permit will be required. Further information about exemptions and permits is found on our website.

 

EA Poition Statement Composting Toilets.pdf

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Kate_MM said:

Currently trying to make sense of the permit issue - it seems generally to be required for far greater amounts of material than the average boater will produce so I'm interested to know - when you had your licence or exemption permit what did it cover? Everything I'm reading at the moment seems to include all grey and black water. 

The EA discharge licence was for 'sewage and 'washing' water (ie the typical contents of a septic tank - Black & Grey water) and was for volumes up to 5 cu mts (5,000 litres)

It did not cover surface water drainage.

 

It was known as an "Environmental Permit"  (previously called a Consent to Discharge) and is for 'Domestic Sewage'.

The requirement for a permit for volumes of less than 5 cu mts was dropped as long as the conditions were met :

 

"...............we will not pursue registration for a small sewage discharge in England where: .

 

The discharge is to ground and is of 2 cubic metres per day or less via a septic tank and infiltration system (soakaway) and is outside a Source Protection Zone 12. This is approximately equivalent to 9 people occupying a single property; .

 

The discharge is to surface water and is of 5 cubic metres per day or less via a package sewage treatment plant. This is approximately equivalent to 31 people occupying a single property (for example, a small school, residential home, etc); .

 

The sewage is only domestic; .

 

The sewage system is maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and you keep a record of all maintenance. ln the case of septic tanks this includes regular emptying; and The discharge does not cause pollution of surface water or groundwater"

 

 

Note to be exempt there must be 'treatment' done to the sewage before discharge.

 

I do not know if this is any help, or if it is still a live number but the 'Permitting Support Centre' telephone number was (is ?) :

 

011 four 289 eight 394

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The EA discharge licence was for 'sewage and 'washing' water (ie the typical contents of a septic tank - Black & Grey water) and was for volumes up to 5 cu mts (5,000 litres)

It did not cover surface water drainage.

 

It was known as an "Environmental Permit"  (previously called a Consent to Discharge) and is for 'Domestic Sewage'.

The requirement for a permit for volumes of less than 5 cu mts was dropped as long as the conditions were met :

 

"...............we will not pursue registration for a small sewage discharge in England where: .

 

The discharge is to ground and is of 2 cubic metres per day or less via a septic tank and infiltration system (soakaway) and is outside a Source Protection Zone 12. This is approximately equivalent to 9 people occupying a single property; .

 

The discharge is to surface water and is of 5 cubic metres per day or less via a package sewage treatment plant. This is approximately equivalent to 31 people occupying a single property (for example, a small school, residential home, etc); .

 

The sewage is only domestic; .

 

The sewage system is maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and you keep a record of all maintenance. ln the case of septic tanks this includes regular emptying; and The discharge does not cause pollution of surface water or groundwater"

 

 

Note to be exempt there must be 'treatment' done to the sewage before discharge.

 

I do not know if this is any help, or if it is still a live number but the 'Permitting Support Centre' telephone number was (is ?) :

 

011 four 289 eight 394

 

The EA seem primarily concerned about gray and black water both of which are more concerning than pure urine. I can't find anything specific from the EA about urine - which, whilst not completely sterile (as thought until recently, and still quoted as such by some, including the Centre for Alternative Technology) is clean. However, a number of other sources give guidelines for creating a soakaway. But I shall continue to search... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kate_MM said:

 

...urine - which, whilst not completely sterile...

 

Urine is sterile, just ask your GP for a sterile pot, collect it midstream and drop it off at your local microbiology laboratory, and they will prove it. However unless your  collection and storage uses proper aseptic technique, it very quickly isn't! 😁

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/06/2022 at 11:57, MtB said:

 

 

Personnel department, you mean? 

 

 

Ah, you are out of date. These days it's 'People and Culture' with a focus on Diversity and Inclusion.

 

Alec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DarrenG said:

 

Urine is sterile, just ask your GP for a sterile pot, collect it midstream and drop it off at your local microbiology laboratory, and they will prove it. However unless your  collection and storage uses proper aseptic technique, it very quickly isn't! 😁

 

You are several years out of date - you really should check information before posting it - it just makes you look stupid.

 

 

Human urine is not sterile - shift of paradigm - PubMed (nih.gov)

Abstract

Objective: Until recently the generally accepted paradigm implied that urine of healthy people is sterile. In the present study, urine of healthy subjects was investigated by extended bacteriological methods.

Material and methods: Three midstream urine samples from 52 healthy subjects each (24 females, 28 males; 18-25 years of age) were investigated by an extended set of culture media for identification of facultative aerobic (FAB) and nonclostridial anaerobic bacteria (NCAB). Ward's method (Euclidean distance) was used for similarity analysis.

Results: The bacterial count of FAB in urine was usually low (≤ 10(2) colony-forming units/ml) in both groups. In contrast, the bacterial count of NCAB was higher (≥ 10(3) colony-forming units/ml), at least in some species, with significant differences between genders. The average number of bacterial species found was 5.8 in female and 7.1 in male urine. Half of the females were assigned to a specific 'female' microbial spectrum, different from that of males. In the mixed-gender clusters, the males showed a greater similarity among themselves.

Conclusions: As also shown by other investigators, urine of healthy people is normally not sterile. The role of the routinely not cultivated bacteria in healthy and diseased subjects needs to be established. It may alter the diagnostics of infectious and inflammatory diseases of the urogenital tract.

 

 

 

Is urine really sterile? | HowStuffWorks

 

There are 100s of medical websites that will tell you you are way behind the 8-ball -  just google "is urine sterile"

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You are several years out of date - you really should check information before posting it - it just makes you look stupid.

 

 

Human urine is not sterile - shift of paradigm - PubMed (nih.gov)

 

But some people want to believe that 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DarrenG said:

 

Urine is sterile, just ask your GP for a sterile pot, collect it midstream and drop it off at your local microbiology laboratory, and they will prove it. However unless your  collection and storage uses proper aseptic technique, it very quickly isn't! 😁

That is what I thought until recently when I did some literature searching on the subject:

 

Ackerman, A.L., Chai, T.C. The Bladder is Not Sterile: an Update on the Urinary Microbiome. Curr Bladder Dysfunct Rep 14, 331–341 (2019). (abstract only)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11884-019-00543-6

 

Hilt EE, McKinley K, Pearce MM, et al. Urine is not sterile: use of enhanced urine culture techniques to detect resident bacterial flora in the adult female bladder. J Clin Microbiol. 2014;52(3):871-876. doi:10.1128/JCM.02876-13 (full paper)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3957746/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You are several years out of date - you really should check information before posting it - it just makes you look stupid.

 

I am several years out of date, my state registration as Medical Laboratory Scientific Officer in microbiology lapsed a while back, and science moves on. Clearly nobody else has ever relied on previous "knowledge" and posted without verifying again.

 

I do find the stupid comment rather obnoxious, but I appreciate the correction and thank you for the reference in particular.

 

I found the conclusion point "the role of the routinely not cultivated bacteria" interesting. My false knowledge was based on what we (back in the day) assumed were sterile samples, either because of the selective media we used, or because we just didn't test appropriately for these alternate non-pathogenic bacteria.

 

Sorry @Kate_MM for trying to incorrectly correct you. Perhaps the point is whilst it may not be sterile, is it a risk?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, DarrenG said:

 

I am several years out of date, my state registration as Medical Laboratory Scientific Officer in microbiology lapsed a while back, and science moves on. Clearly nobody else has ever relied on previous "knowledge" and posted without verifying again.

 

I do find the stupid comment rather obnoxious, but I appreciate the correction and thank you for the reference in particular.

 

I found the conclusion point "the role of the routinely not cultivated bacteria" interesting. My false knowledge was based on what we (back in the day) assumed were sterile samples, either because of the selective media we used, or because we just didn't test appropriately for these alternate non-pathogenic bacteria.

 

Sorry @Kate_MM for trying to incorrectly correct you. Perhaps the point is whilst it may not be sterile, is it a risk?

 

I don't think it's a risk - it seems to be a low level that we have only become aware of with more sophisticated testing. Also worth noting that the 2014 study was very small, although the 2019 one is more of a systematic review.  And the belief that it is sterile is very widely held, as you say, I think testing was for specific bacteria with a view to treatment. I seem to remember that  'C&S' for culture and sensitivity was the thing I was writing on samples before dispacthing them to the lab in my days of ward nursing!

 

However, I am always interested to know more about microbiology in relation to all things toilet, not just composting. There does seem to be an assumption that waterless composting systems must be full of pathogens and therefore dangerous but no one questions the probably presence of pathogens in sewage systems or asks how long they survive.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

However, I am always interested to know more about microbiology in relation to all things toilet, not just composting. There does seem to be an assumption that waterless composting systems must be full of pathogens and therefore dangerous but no one questions the probably presence of pathogens in sewage systems or asks how long they survive.

 

The big difference is that the 'sewerage system' is a closed system that the general public has no access to, the sewage goes to a STW (Sewage Treatment Works), it is not 'distributed' onto a tow path (hedge bottom) which will have people and dogs passing by and /or rooting around. Animals can also pick up the bacteria.

 

Until a few years ago our sewage treatment plant was emptied annually by a licenced waste handler, it went to a local farm and was was injected in the fields - this all changed and is now banned.

The waste handler has to now take the tanker to an approved STW (not all are approved) and the sewage has to go thru the same process as the sewage in the 'sewerage sytem'.

The cost has gone up from £300 per 'empty' to £600 per empty now the tractor and tanker has to travel 40 miles (our local STW is not licenced to accept tanker loads) and pay to empty the tanker.

I dread to think what the cost will be this year now that Tractors must use White Diesel and, add in the the crazy fuel prices It wouldn't surprise me if it was now £1000.

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The big difference is that the 'sewerage system' is a closed system that the general public has no access to, the sewage goes to a STW (Sewage Treatment Works), it is not 'distributed' onto a tow path (hedge bottom) which will have people and dogs passing by and /or rooting around. Animals can also pick up the bacteria.

 

Until a few years ago our sewage treatment plant was emptied annually by a licenced waste handler, it went to a local farm and was was injected in the fields - this all changed and is now banned.

The waste handler has to now take the tanker to an approved STW (not all are approved) and the sewage has to go thru the same process as the sewage in the 'sewerage sytem'.

The cost has gone up from £300 per 'empty' to £600 per empty now the tractor and tanker has to travel 40 miles (our local STW is not licenced to accept tanker loads) and pay to empty the tanker.

I dread to think what the cost will be this year now that Tractors must use White Diesel and, add in the the crazy fuel prices It wouldn't surprise me if it was now £1000.

 

 

 

 

If completely untreated sewage is being 'distributed' on the towpath then I share your concerns. I do know that some boaters do/have emptied cassettes into hedgerows. There are probably also some separating loo users who have done that, although the contents will at least be much drier and the bacteria die off will have begun (the rate of die off between systems is the bit that I would like to understand better as my research so far suggests that they survive longer in sewage). And of course, dog poo, is a major issue in any discussion about dangerous bacteria on the towpath. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Kate_MM said:

If completely untreated sewage is being 'distributed' on the towpath then I share your concerns. I

 

 

I was really continuing the discussion about Urine not being sterile and the fact that 'separating toilet' owners admit to pouring it along the side of the towpath, in hedge bottoms etc.

In the normal sewerage system the urine is carried away with the solids to the STW.

 

Yes - dumping solids would be even worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I was really continuing the discussion about Urine not being sterile and the fact that 'separating toilet' owners admit to pouring it along the side of the towpath, in hedge bottoms etc.

In the normal sewerage system the urine is carried away with the solids to the STW.

 

Yes - dumping solids would be even worse.

 

Right, apologies, I see - trying to do too many things at once!

 

Whilst urine isn't sterile I can't find any suggestion that the bacteria it does contain are harmful to plant or other life because the levels are very low. It is generally considered a very good fertiliser. A quick search of 'is urine safe for plants' generates a ton of stuff. This is a somewhat over excited article on the subject but the gist is there:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/human-urine-is-an-effective-fertilizer/

 

This article in the Guardian is a rather easier read than the paper it is discussing, but you can follow the link back to Goetsch et al (2020) if you want to delve into the DNA of source separated urine. The interesting bit in this one is that it appears that bacterial DNA is not passed on and that it doesn't spread anti-biotic resistance (pharma in urine has been something I've felt may be more significant than the modest amount of bacteria). It does refer to safety and I think if I were running a system involved output of any sort from a wider population than me, I would put in place pasteurisation for urine and longer composting times for the humanure but I'm not, I'm managing a very small scale domestic system where I know exactly what has gone into it, when and anything that might affect the output.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/22/study-gives-green-light-to-use-of-urine-as-crop-fertiliser

 

My concern about the 'normal' sewage system is that far too much of it is bypassing the treatment plant. And it isn't just relatively safe clean urine, it's sewage plus domestic grey water, detergents, oils, street and industrial run off. That is killing far more wildlife and plants than my 2L of wee diluted and applied to a tree in a different spot every day.

 

Water firms in England released raw sewage into rivers and coastal waters for 2.7 million hours in 2021. Yorkshire Water discharged raw sewage into English waterways for more than 400,000 hours, while Thames Water - the UK's largest water company - discharged raw sewage for 163,000 hours. In 2021, Thames Water was fined 2.3 million British pounds for a pollution incident in 2016. In total, water firms in England discharged raw sewage into rivers 372,533 times in 2021.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1180077/water-company-sewage-discharges-england-rivers/

 

Which, considering that there are only 8760 hours in a year, is utterly mind boggling! 

 

It seems that we separating loo users are fair game to have a go at (in general, not suggesting that you are doing so), accused of not caring: as one boater put it in a Facebook group 'they just chuck and fuck it'. 'Yes!' came a chorus of approval 'they're the bad, dirty ones, we are the saintly, we use the proper system, the normal system'. I wanted to ask how many of them had ever paused whilst emptying a cassette and thought 'been a lot of rain this week, I wonder if this is going to end up in the Thames... or the Trent, untreated'. Because I'll put my hand up and admit, that, when I had a cassette it never crossed my mind to think about where it went. I just chucked it into the elsan for someone else to deal with. 

 

Finally, before I turn into a pumpkin, I would also add that separating toilet owners are not the only ones donating their nitrogen rich wee to the hedgerows. I will assume that you have never popped off your boat for a pee elsewhere, but in a survey I did in 2019, 19% of 690 cassette owners and 12% of 543 pump out owners admitted to pee'ing in the hedge to help their tanks last longer...  (and 20% and 11% to peeing in the canal - which almost certainly overlaps with the above, I'd have to delve into the raw data to work out the exact total of such alternative urine management systems). 

 

In a nutshell, it isn't as simple as SWT = good; alternative systems = bad, we have got to find ways to stop being scared of our excreta (it really isn't that dangerous if managed properly) and wasting our waste. 

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Kate_MM said:

It seems that we separating loo users are fair game to have a go at (in general, not suggesting that you are doing so)

 

 

I have nothing against the principle of separating toilets (in fact our family home built in 1660 had one - a three-seater, and it was still there in 1968 when I left home)

What I feel very strongly about is people preaching the benefits of 'composting toilets' (when they obviously are not) and when they do not actually make any effort to actually compost the solids, or, dispose of the liquid correctly (in an elsan point)

 

In a Facebook survey 70% of boaters with 'composting toilets' admitted that they simply dumped their waste in the C&RT Biffa bins every few day / weeks.

 

I am sure you are aware of the legislative requirements for human waste (Called 'Offensive Waste') to be bagged in 'tiger striped bags' and with not more than 7Kgs per bin per collection.

As C&RT cannot control how many bags are dumped per bin, or the weight per bin, BIFFA obviously got a bit miffed with C&RT and hence the start of the arguments about disposal and how unfair C&RT are being by changing the 'rules'.

 

For many, many years some Marinas have banned boats with separating toilets for that very reason - I remember (maybe 10 years ago) getting a letter from the marina saying that 'Composting Toilets' would not be allowed into the marina.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

In a Facebook survey 70% of boaters with 'composting toilets' admitted that they simply dumped their waste in the C&RT Biffa bins every few day / weeks.

 

 

Is this survey the one carried out on Kate's Facebook page soon after CRT's announcement that we could no longer bag and bin using their bins? If so this survey is now out of date. Up until that time the official CRT advice was that it was OK to bag and bin and consequently many people including us followed official advice and did so. Things have changed since then. CRT officially no longer allow it and I would place a big bet that that 70% figure is now much reduced. I know many of the fellow separators that I am aquainted with via blogs and vlogs have switched to a cassette system. We now take our poo back to the house and compost it in our garden and I know of others who now also do the same having previously bagged and binned.

 

If it is a more recent survey then I stand corrected but would point out that at least one converted "composter" (me) didn't take part in any subsequent survey.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Alway Swilby said:

I know many of the fellow separators that I am aquainted with via blogs and vlogs have switched to a cassette system.

 

So, they are the 'responsible ones', and by your own words are no longer using (so called) "composting toilets", so not included in any figures or surveys, this probably means that, of the remaining users, an even higher percentage is now disposing of the waste in an improper manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Surely a toilet where you "bag and bin" the waste is not a composting toilet. Compost brings up images of beautiful gardens rather than stinking bin lorries. 

 

It's an interesting subject but overall I think most sensible people would agree that putting the toilet waste into the bin is a generally bad idea. 

 

By all means compost it if you have the facility and space to do so but if not then it doesn't work. It's just not appropriate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Greenie 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So, they are the 'responsible ones', and by your own words are no longer using (so called) "composting toilets", so not included in any figures or surveys, this probably means that, of the remaining users, an even higher percentage is now disposing of the waste in an improper manner.

Fair point but that survey is well out of date. I don't think that it can be assumed that after a rule change announced about two years ago that few "composters" have changed their ways. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

We now take our poo back to the house and compost it in our garden and I know of others who now also do the same having previously bagged and binned.

 

 

And those liveaboards who don't have a garden (or land based home) to take it back to ?

If they are no longer 'bag & binners' what do they do with it ?

 

Are they keping it on the boat for a year, or two, or three until it properly composts ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Surely a toilet where you "bag and bin" the waste is not a composting toilet. Compost brings up images of beautiful gardens rather than stinking bin lorries. 

 

It's an interesting subject but overall I think most sensible people would agree that putting the toilet waste into the bin is a generally bad idea. 

 

By all means compost it if you have the facility and space to do so but if not then it doesn't work. It's just not appropriate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, we all know that a composting toilet doesn't compost. That point has been made many times and agreed by many "composters". My speculation is that many people have changed their ways because of the CRT ruling and no longer bag and bin. I do know there are many here who don't agree but they are speculating too.

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

And those liveaboards who don't have a garden (or land based home) to take it back to ?

If they are no longer 'bag & binners' what do they do with it ?

 

Are they keping it on the boat for a year, or two, or three until it properly composts ?

Some do yes. Why don't you take part in Kate's workshop and find out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Yes, we all know that a composting toilet doesn't compost. That point has been made many times and agreed by many "composters". My speculation is that many people have changed their ways because of the CRT ruling and no longer bag and bin. I do know there are many here who don't agree but they are speculating too.

Some do yes. Why don't you take part in Kate's workshop and find out.

 

 

I have no intention of having a separator toilet

I have no intention of composting my bodily outputs

I have no respect for anyone who disposes their bodily output in an antisocial, totally unacceptable and illegal way.

 

I have all respect for those who make the decision to have a separating toilet and actually use it, correctly, and dispose of the contents in a legal and responsible way.

 

You do - respect - all power to you.

 

For those that don't I wouldn't use the contents of a urine container on them if they were on fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

And those liveaboards who don't have a garden (or land based home) to take it back to ?

If they are no longer 'bag & binners' what do they do with it ?

 

Are they keping it on the boat for a year, or two, or three until it properly composts ?

Some of them have adopted a hot composting system that dramatically reduces the time and space required.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.