Jump to content

Narrow boat plumbing


Featured Posts

On 18/10/2022 at 07:37, Tony Brooks said:

 

Your main question has been answered several times. Just fit a similar looking pump, If it's cut out pressure is too high so the PRV keeps venting either then fit another pump with a lower cut out pressure, or adjust the cut out pressure down. You will have that info on the label of the pump you have just fitted. If it happens it's output volume is too high or low just live with it.

 

If the accumulator needs its air pressure altering I don't see how you can do it without a pump at the least. Tracy has posted how to set the pressure without a gauge a few times in other threads but you still have to pump the accumulator up if it has lost its air.

 

Whether you have an accumulator or expansion vessel only someone who can find where in the system it is relative to any NRV because they are both the same thing but set at different pressures and before or after any NRV. IN fact if it is after the NRV it might be doing both jobs. The shape and colour can vary and so  can the size but thing football or rugby ball size and shape as a rough guide.

 

 

 

Thanks all, I've found the expansion vessel , not found any leaks so far, but the start stop behaviour has stopped, I let the taps drip for a few minutes, and the pump kicked in again, in what once was normal behaviour for my system ,( which used to be running for a short time every two hours). I'm not sure if it's still doing this.

I'll need to wait for the silence of the night to check if anything is happening without intervention.

I'm not sure what a NRV valve would look like or where they would be found, it's copper plumbing. I have Nigel Calder's book.

There are quite a few PRV valves, all dry and with thread tape on most of them 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Thanks all, I've found the expansion vessel , not found any leaks so far, but the start stop behaviour has stopped, I let the taps drip for a few minutes, and the pump kicked in again, in what once was normal behaviour for my system ,( which used to be running for a short time every two hours). I'm not sure if it's still doing this.

I'll need to wait for the silence of the night to check if anything is happening without intervention.

I'm not sure what a NRV valve would look like or where they would be found, it's copper plumbing. I have Nigel Calder's book.

There are quite a few PRV valves, all dry and with thread tape on most of them 

When you open a tap slowly, does the pump start almost instantly and then when you close the tap stop instantly or does it keep running for 10 to 15 seconds 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

When you open a tap slowly, does the pump start almost instantly and then when you close the tap stop instantly or does it keep running for 10 to 15 seconds 

I would say it reacts exactly as one would expect, and does not run after Off 

I don't know if this needs to be tested on both hot and cold taps 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I would say it reacts exactly as one would expect, and does not run after Off 

I don't know if this needs to be tested on both hot and cold taps 

 

You seem to be missing the point of Brian's question.

 

When you turn the tap off with the pump running does the pump:

 

1. Stop almost instantly?

 

2. Keep on running for a sort while after the pump is turned off?

 

The reason for this test is to decide if you have an accumulator and if you have, has it lost pressure.

 

It should not matter if you use the hot or cold tap but I would use the cold because if you use the hot and if you have an expansion vessel that has lost pressure it would confuse the above test.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You seem to be missing the point of Brian's question.

 

When you turn the tap off with the pump running does the pump:

 

1. Stop almost instantly?

 

2. Keep on running for a sort while after the pump is turned off?

 

The reason for this test is to decide if you have an accumulator and if you have, has it lost pressure.

 

It should not matter if you use the hot or cold tap but I would use the cold because if you use the hot and if you have an expansion vessel that has lost pressure it would confuse the above test.

Sorry when I said it stops when Off I meant when the tap is turned to off , so it's instant on, water flows,  and stops immediately I turn the tap off.

I do have an accumulator, it's under the sink.

And I do have an expansion tank beside the calorifier.

There is a  bit of general background noise during the day, but I'll be able to hear it tonight better if it starts running of its own accord again. It's bizarre if it has reset itself to proper functioning..

I assume that if both the hot and the cold water (mixer tap), behave the same, with instant flow, instant off, then there is no problem. In fact at the moment it seems to be perfect!

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Sorry when I said it stops when Off I meant when the tap is turned to off , so it's instant on, water flows,  and stops immediately I turn the tap off.

I do have an accumulator, it's under the sink.

And I do have an expansion tank beside the calorifier.

There is a  bit of general background noise during the day, but I'll be able to hear it tonight better if it starts running of its own accord again. It's bizarre if it has reset itself to proper functioning..

I assume that if both the hot and the cold water (mixer tap), behave the same, with instant flow, instant off, then there is no problem. In fact at the moment it seems to be perfect!

 

As it stops instantly then that indicates the accumulator has no pressure in it. This may just be that air has been lost over time or the bladder has burst. I fear it needs a new accumulator. Roughly the same size will be fine as long as it says suitable for potable water. The colour is immaterial as long as it is for potable water. Set the pressure to about half the pump cut out pressure

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I would say it reacts exactly as one would expect, and does not run after Off 

 

I would expect to draw a glass of water before my pump started and run for a good 10 seconds after I turn the tap off. I would expect the water to flow at its normal operating pressure as soon as I open the tap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll have to get an expert (one is arriving on Sunday), to stand at the pump while I try the taps to test the system, it's very quiet and I'm not sure why I need to replace anything if water comes out of the tap on demand?

I'm sure it's stopped start stopping now, and also stopped running at random times !

I'll open up the forward bulkhead and try to turn Off the water tank. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'll have to get an expert (one is arriving on Sunday), to stand at the pump while I try the taps to test the system, it's very quiet and I'm not sure why I need to replace anything if water comes out of the tap on demand?

I'm sure it's stopped start stopping now, and also stopped running at random times !

I'll open up the forward bulkhead and try to turn Off the water tank.

 

When you started all this t seemed that you were concerned about the frequent pump running. As the accumulator stores a volume of water under air pressure. This volume of water will make up for any leaks in the system, be it internal or external leaks. It will also make up for the hot water that contracts as it cools down.  This means the time between pump running with the taps closed is a lot longer than it would be without an accumulator.

 

So the answer to the frequent pump running is to ensure the accumulator is working BUT if you are now happy with the frequent pump running then you do not need an accumulator. With an accumulator the pump is likely to run just once or twice during the night (unless you turn it off). Without a working accumulator it is likely to run many times. The choice about the accumulator is yours, if you are now happy then ignore it.

 

As you say it has now stopped the frequent starting and stopping you have either done something to stop a slight leak - possibly the PRV if you twisted it - or dirt on a pump valve seat has flushed away, so it is now sealing.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'll have to get an expert (one is arriving on Sunday), to stand at the pump while I try the taps to test the system, it's very quiet and I'm not sure why I need to replace anything if water comes out of the tap on demand?

I'm sure it's stopped start stopping now, and also stopped running at random times !

I'll open up the forward bulkhead and try to turn Off the water tank. 

 

 

You were up for buying a new pump last week, people are just trying to help you find where the problem is. The constant stop start could have been a bit of crap in one of the valves, is the strainer clean?

Edited by ditchcrawler
Because I do that
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

As it stops instantly then that indicates the accumulator has no pressure in it.

 

Not the only possibility. One of mine exhibited the exact same symptoms (rapid cycling when a tap was slowly running and instant ON and OFF coinciding with tap ON and tap OFF). Odd as the system was brand new, just installed by the bod I bought the boat from.

 

On attaching a pump with a pressure gauge incorporated, I noticed the accumulator pressure was set to 4 Bar, and it is a 2 Bar pump. So the accumulator was non-functioning due to excess air pressure rather than having none.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You were up for buying a new pump last week, people are just trying to help you find where the problem is. The constant stop start could have been a bit of crap in one of the valves, is the strainer clean?

Strainer ? What strainer!

I was advised to replace the pump to resolve the prob, I was not convinced.

My Gut feeling was that the pump pressure sensor (I'm guessing there is one) is part of the pump and that is the problem . Now it seems it could be crud in pipe work . 

I think there may be a problem, or more like two. but will hang fire till I'm clearer 

 

 

I

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Strainer ? What strainer!

I was advised to replace the pump to resolve the prob, I was not convinced.

 

To assess the quality of advice from towpath randoms, you first have to accurately assess the knowledge level of the towpath random. Quite difficult.

 

It's easy for a towpath random to big themselves up giving guesswork disguised as decent advice to another towpath random, especially a female one, when they will probably never see them again or be held to account for being wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

To assess the quality of advice from towpath randoms, you first have to accurately assess the knowledge level of the towpath random. Quite difficult.

 

It's easy for a towpath random to big themselves up giving guesswork disguised as decent advice to another towpath random, especially a female one, when they will probably never see them again or be held to account for being wrong.

I  listen to Tony Brooks, obviously.

It's difficult for me to be sure I understand any technical stuff which he ( or others) assume I have knowledge of.

 

So in this case it has already been suggested a new pump, and a new accumulator will sort any problem. I don t think this is fruitful discussion!

Currently I'm not even sure if there is a fault, but there was. Some of the towpath experts don't even bother to read the symptoms post, but just dive in, then complain I don't thank them :)

 

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I  listen to Tony Brooks, obviously.

It's difficult for me to be sure I understand any technical stuff which he ( or others) assume I have knowledge of.

 

So in this case it has already been suggested a new pump, and a new accumulator will sort any problem. I don t think this is fruitful discussion!

Currently I'm not even sure if there is a fault, but there was. Some of the towpath experts don't even bother to read the symptoms post, but just dive in, then complain I don't thank them :)

 

 

Point is though, WHO suggested it?!! 

 

I very much doubt Tony suggested it based on the info you've provided in the last few posts. Perhaps earlier in the thread given your info is often unreliable and inconsistent, at best. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Point is though, WHO suggested it?!! 

 

I very much doubt Tony suggested it based on the info you've provided in the last few posts. Perhaps earlier in the thread given your info is often unreliable and inconsistent, at best. 

This is not true, I don't know what is the solution when I first post so I may have to add later questions or explain things in a non technical manner. I may not know a Whitworth from a UCN, but who does these days.

If you read this thread through you will see the tripe I have to sieve to separate reality from rubbish.

There are quite a few (b)ankers on here, they know who they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

This is not true, I don't know what is the solution when I first post so I may have to add later questions or explain things in a non technical manner. I may not know a Whitworth from a UCN, but who does these days.

If you read this thread through you will see the tripe I have to sieve to separate reality from rubbish.

There are quite a few (b)ankers on here, they know who they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes there are and you seam to be the female version on here, who once again comes across as totally clueless on everything to do with boats and with all your so called experience with offshore it’s quite entertaining or is that laughable? You seam to have learned nothing in the years you have lived onboard of your boat.

Edited by PD1964
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Not the only possibility. One of mine exhibited the exact same symptoms (rapid cycling when a tap was slowly running and instant ON and OFF coinciding with tap ON and tap OFF). Odd as the system was brand new, just installed by the bod I bought the boat from.

 

On attaching a pump with a pressure gauge incorporated, I noticed the accumulator pressure was set to 4 Bar, and it is a 2 Bar pump. So the accumulator was non-functioning due to excess air pressure rather than having none.

 

I agree Mike, but she said the rapid cycling was new, although she now says it has gone away, and she also said it used not to do it. Unless she has found a pump to pressurize the accumulator without telling us then overpressure in an old accumulator is unlikely. Just unlikely, not impossible. The other unlikely thing is the opposite of what you said. If for some reason the pump's pressure switch has adjusted itself to a much lower cut off then the correct accumulator pressure would act in the way you described.

 

We come back to the facts that this is LadyG who seems to find doing tests and sending accurate reports of symptoms etc. difficult, and that originally she was asking about very frequent pump running and then only running for a very short time.

 

Also see her latest posts. As far as I can remember she has yet to tell us about the state of the PRV outlet which if leaking will give frequent running, especially if the accumulator, if fitted, has no pressure or is well over pressure. She has had almost a week to pop into a car shop and buy a pressure gauge to help her get a definitive diagnosis. Now she goes off at a tangent to the original problem and does not seem to have made an effort to grasp how the system works and what the components do. The rapid turn ons (now apparently gone) could be dirt in the pump valve and to prevent that the pump makers suggests a strainer in the pump inlet line. There may be other causes that need checking and she has been advised of those. On all the installations I have seen the strainers are staring you in the face when you look at the pump. Likewise, she "assumes" the pressure switch is in the pump. This tells me that she is happy to ask questions but is not happy to any research herself, that switch has been discussed ad nauseam in other topics. We can not even be sure that her boat has not been fitted with an external pressure switch, although it is probably unlikely.

 

Edited to add: The working of the system, apart from an expansion vessel, is explained on my website in the maintenance notes and I am sure the Surecal and pump makers' sites talk about it as well. If she does not understand then she is fee to email me direct for an explanation so I simply do not buy what looks like the "I am a helpless female" line, maybe idle could be used though.

Edited by Tony Brooks
  • Happy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I agree Mike, but she said the rapid cycling was new, although she now says it has gone away, and she also said it used not to do it. Unless she has found a pump to pressurize the accumulator without telling us then overpressure in an old accumulator is unlikely. Just unlikely, not impossible. The other unlikely thing is the opposite of what you said. If for some reason the pump's pressure switch has adjusted itself to a much lower cut off then the correct accumulator pressure would act in the way you described.

 

We come back to the facts that this is LadyG who seems to find doing tests and sending accurate reports of symptoms etc. difficult, and that originally she was asking about very frequent pump running and then only running for a very short time.

 

Also see her latest posts. As far as I can remember she has yet to tell us about the state of the PRV outlet which if leaking will give frequent running, especially if the accumulator, if fitted, has no pressure or is well over pressure. She has had almost a week to pop into a car shop and buy a pressure gauge to help her get a definitive diagnosis. Now she goes off at a tangent to the original problem and does not seem to have made an effort to grasp how the system works and what the components do. The rapid turn ons (now apparently gone) could be dirt in the pump valve and to prevent that the pump makers suggests a strainer in the pump inlet line. There may be other causes that need checking and she has been advised of those. On all the installations I have seen the strainers are staring you in the face when you look at the pump. Likewise, she "assumes" the pressure switch is in the pump. This tells me that she is happy to ask questions but is not happy to any research herself, that switch has been discussed ad nauseam in other topics. We can not even be sure that her boat has not been fitted with an external pressure switch, although it is probably unlikely.

Agreed, she is a pain in the rear when she asks questions and then cannot be bothered to check her own boat systems. I will not offer any advice to her again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I agree Mike, but she said the rapid cycling was new, although she now says it has gone away, and she also said it used not to do it. Unless she has found a pump to pressurize the accumulator without telling us then overpressure in an old accumulator is unlikely. Just unlikely, not impossible. The other unlikely thing is the opposite of what you said. If for some reason the pump's pressure switch has adjusted itself to a much lower cut off then the correct accumulator pressure would act in the way you described.

 

We come back to the facts that this is LadyG who seems to find doing tests and sending accurate reports of symptoms etc. difficult, and that originally she was asking about very frequent pump running and then only running for a very short time.

 

Also see her latest posts. As far as I can remember she has yet to tell us about the state of the PRV outlet which if leaking will give frequent running, especially if the accumulator, if fitted, has no pressure or is well over pressure. She has had almost a week to pop into a car shop and buy a pressure gauge to help her get a definitive diagnosis. Now she goes off at a tangent to the original problem and does not seem to have made an effort to grasp how the system works and what the components do. The rapid turn ons (now apparently gone) could be dirt in the pump valve and to prevent that the pump makers suggests a strainer in the pump inlet line. There may be other causes that need checking and she has been advised of those. On all the installations I have seen the strainers are staring you in the face when you look at the pump. Likewise, she "assumes" the pressure switch is in the pump. This tells me that she is happy to ask questions but is not happy to any research herself, that switch has been discussed ad nauseam in other topics. We can not even be sure that her boat has not been fitted with an external pressure switch, although it is probably unlikely.

 

Edited to add: The working of the system, apart from an expansion vessel, is explained on my website in the maintenance notes and I am sure the Surecal and pump makers' sites talk about it as well. If she does not understand then she is fee to email me direct for an explanation so I simply do not buy what looks like the "I am a helpless female" line, maybe idle could be used though.

I've been in bed for the last week, as it happens, and though Sowerby Bridge has two bike shops neither sell  pumps with a gauge for under £39 and  none sell tyre gauges. Also I was not sure if one was required at the time.

I'm afraid I would not know what individual parts of the pump are .

There is wooden bulkhead forward of the pump, requires me to scrabble on hands and knees to remove a little door which may indeed hide a strainer.

There is an auto shop I'll buy a gauge, and if that helps i can buy a bike pump. 

But at the moment I'm waiting for a second opinion in person The first person who came was deaf, never looked at anything  said buy another pump then left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I've been in bed for the last week, as it happens, and though Sowerby Bridge has two bike shops neither sell  pumps with a gauge for under £39 and  none sell tyre gauges. Also I was not sure if one was required at the time.

I'm afraid I would not know what individual parts of the pump are .

There is wooden bulkhead forward of the pump, requires me to scrabble on hands and knees to remove a little door which may indeed hide a strainer.

 

 

A pump with a pressure gauge on it is your enhancement, just a tyre pressure gauge will do. £10 Argos and less from Amazon/Ebay. Without a pressure gauge to test the accumulator you make a definitive diagnosis, anything you can say is by inference from symptoms.

 

Halfords list a cycle pump at £5 and I suspect Amazon/Ebay will undercut that. Just ensure you get the correct adaptor.

 

The strainer, if fitted, as it should be on a quote "quality boat", is normally mounted very close to or on the pump inlet. This does not mean that on your boat it is elsewhere. There are two common types and, maybe more. A thick clear plastic disk type mounted in the hose or a small foot mounted plastic type with a clear plastic top that looks a bit like a very small inverted flowerpot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't see a strainer, it is probably behind a tiny door, along with a method to turn off water, the rather obvious tap does not turn, but a notice indicates there is another one behind tiny door .

Update

 the inline  valve I could not turn has a collar on it which when pulled back allowed valve to be  turned. 

Anyway I'm inclined to do nothing .

I will buy lots of water bottles and head off to the moors for winter. Not too far from civilisation.

Ive gathered a lot of valuable information on this thread, but hope I don't ever have to start trying to repair anything. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For clarity (I hope)

 

Not having a strainer on the pump inlet will not affect the pump performance unless:

 

a. it becomes blocked

 

b. the lack of it allows debris from the tank to get stuck under a pump valve or valves.

 

In the first case you suffer low flow, long pump run times, and often noisy pump operation.

 

In the second case the delivery flow might be lower than usual, but it is often not noticeable. What you will find is the pump runs far more frequently, with or without an accumulator, than it did before, BUT you need to rule out any other leaks in the system including a weeping PRV on the calorifier before inferring muck under a valve or valves.

 

Note: most common domestic water pumps contain at least three small individual pumping chambers, each with their own par of valves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main function of the strainer in my experience is to leak.

 

Seen plenty leaking but never one blocked with debris that might otherwise have got into and affected the pump.

 

My opinion is strainers are a PITA and best left off when replacing a pump. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, MtB said:

The main function of the strainer in my experience is to leak.

 

Seen plenty leaking but never one blocked with debris that might otherwise have got into and affected the pump.

 

My opinion is strainers are a PITA and best left off when replacing a pump. 

Everything now working. Not sure if it is working properly, but I don't think boat is sinking.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.