Lost hydraulic drive

[adrianh]

Here is a link to give you details of which type of SAE splined you have, see page 2 etc. Various 13 teeth options depending on shaft diameter. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/upload/db_documents_doc_18.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiF6eKQ65X4AhWNZsAKHSCoAwgQFnoECDMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2v8Py62g97r_wD0st0AXhC

This chart is published by hydraulic equipment supermarkets,  Gloucester. They are very close to Beta so may have supplied the original kit. May be able to assist if you explain you need the coupling for an old Kubota (V) 1903 engine. In its day this engine was widely used for mowers, tractors and off road equipment which were often fitted with hydraulic drives generally using a quality steel bodied gear pump, hence the splined drive. The serial number on the engine will date it, as does the build date on the cooler ( post 1974? ).

May be worth looking for an old style mobile or agricultural machinery repairer near you and visit them with your old bits.

The missing drive spider is shown as 72 shore hardness synthetic rubber in the old catalogue, most new couplings use polyurethane but check the temperature rating is OK for engine around 80 degrees c .

[spicemouse]

Sunday update:

 

I've just had a look through all the advice since I was last online yesterday evening, that's a lot of links and things to follow up! I am a bit worried about finding a new part in a price range which is reasonable. I'll have a deeper dive later and maybe make some calls on Monday. 

For the coupling, I finally removed the last section this morning: 

 

 

I think someone wanted a closer look at the splines on the pump, bit rusty but straight to my eyes:

So the next step will be finding a part. Is it possible to get some sort of adapter sheath that slips over the slides and provides a smooth surface for the modern versions to connect with? Does that make sense? I realise I don't have the vocabulary of technical terms for this. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by spicemouse

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

Sunday update:

 

I've just had a look through all the advice since I was last online yesterday evening, that's a lot of links and things to follow up! I am a bit worried about finding a new part in a price range which is reasonable. I'll have a deeper dive later and maybe make some calls on Monday. 

For the coupling, I finally removed the last section this morning: 

 

 

I think someone wanted a closer look at the splines on the pump, bit rusty but straight to my eyes:

So the next step will be finding a part. Is it possible to get some sort of adapter sheath that slips over the slides and provides a smooth surface for the modern versions to connect with? Does that make sense? I realise I don't have the vocabulary of technical terms for this. 

I would think not. Then you would be depending on a pin or bolt to stop it spinning on the Adaptor Sleeve. It was made splined for a reason, there is a lot of torque on that coupling.  Likely it is a standard size spline anyway.  With all the leads you have I am sure that you will find a coupling that will fit.

The new flywheel part can be redrilled at the correct centres to fit.

[john.k]

The splined pump coupling is serviceable,no need to replace it...........the flywheel coupling will have to be replaced..............although,hit it with your angle grinder and do a spark test and see if its steel or ductile iron.................I suspect its ductile iron...........anyhoo find out.

[spicemouse]

4 minutes ago, john.k said:

your angle grinder

If I had one I would..  My hand & magnet tells me it's light stainless steel or aluminium  

[MtB]

1 minute ago, spicemouse said:

If I had one I would..  My hand & magnet tells me it's light stainless steel or aluminium  

 

The weight of it would distinguish.

 

There is no such thing as lightweight stainless steel.

 

If it's noticeably lighter than the splined component, it'll be ally.  

[spicemouse]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

The weight of it would distinguish.

 

It's a about 200g, maybe 1/4 the weight of the other part. I'm thinking aluminium. No scales aboard sadly. 

 

 

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

It's a about 200g, maybe 1/4 the weight of the other part. I'm thinking aluminium. No scales aboard sadly. 

 

 

Bound to be ally then. Looks like an ally casting too in your photo of the non-machined side. Also explains why that part failed, not the ferrous bit bolted to the flywheel. 

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

So the next step will be finding a part.

 

 

Well, at least you now know the manufacturers name - I wouldn't be surprised if there was a model / part number cast into it somewhere.

 

TSOHAN - Japanese ? Chinese ?

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

53 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

I think someone wanted a closer look at the splines on the pump, bit rusty but straight to my eyes

 

I am sorry to say they are very much as I suspected they may be - that is very badly worn. They must have been chattering and fretting for ages. They seem to be only bout half or less of their original width. I now fear for the splines in the coupling but as you intend to renew that is not an issue. I know money is tight but if you fit new parts onto those splines I fear the life will be measured in a few years, maybe  a very few years, before they strip completely.

 

 

 

[Mike Adams]

Those splines don't look too bad to me. of you clean them up and there is not too much slack I think it willlast a long time. You can get splined sleeves to fit hydraulic pumps from an agricultural supplier to get to a parallel shaft. Then you have more options. When I had a similar problem I used a sleeve into a taper lock Hrc coupling and machined the other half of the coupling to fit to a steel plate bolted to the flywheel. There are commercial parts out there but they do take  a bit of finding!

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am sorry to say they are very much as I suspected they may be - that is very badly worn. They must have been chattering and fretting for ages.

With the coupling running metal to metal, possibly for years, the splines will have had much more of an impact loading than if the resilient element had been present. 

But for all that I don't think they look too bad. The alternative to reusing them is probably to replace the whole hydraulic pump (unless you can get just a new pump shaft), so I would be inclined to accept the possibly reduced life span instead.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

With the coupling running metal to metal, possibly for years, the splines will have had much more of an impact loading than if the resilient element had been present. 

But for all that I don't think they look too bad. The alternative to reusing them is probably to replace the whole hydraulic pump (unless you can get just a new pump shaft), so I would be inclined to accept the possibly reduced life span instead.

I would not be too concerned about the spline wear. I have seen far worse which have not failed.

It was tight to lever off and the wear is uniform along the spline length. If a small amount of Loktite Bearing Fit is used on assembly it should stop any further  fretting due to chatter.

I think that the coupling will need to be assembled completely and then the pump unit fitted into the female spline last, rather than assembling onto the cushion insert.

[Chris Lowe]

I used to work in the hydraulic design department at Niftylift, we used MP Filtri a lot for parts.

Worth a look on fleabay as well, this 14T pump is up at the momenthttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162052815030 not sure what size that original pump is though.

Edited June 5, 2022 by buccaneer66

[john.k]

The splines are fretted but still servicable...............spline fretting is completely prevented with moly dag......MoS2 powder with enough oil to make a paste........iTrue,Loctite will stop the fretting......and also make the flange solid if anything needs to be done in the (near) future...........IMHO you could make another plate for the flywheel with a welder,oxytorch,drill and lathe.....i would estimate about 6 hours for a handy boater.......make the semicircular pieces from pipe of a suitable size...

Edited June 5, 2022 by john.k

[Tracy D'arth]

10 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

I used to work in the hydraulic design department at Niftylift, we used MP Filtri a lot for parts.

Worth a look on fleabay as well, this 14T pump is up at the momenthttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162052815030 not sure what size that original pump is though.

With carriage and customs duty that would be a very expensive pump!

[Chris Lowe]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

With carriage and customs duty that would be a very expensive pump!

It would but it shows that option are out there.

[adrianh]

It would not be unusual for a used splined to appear like that. The coupling that you removed would be a low grade cast steel and the shaft a high grade heat treated hardened steel so wear is likely to be mostly in the coupling.  It is essential that you assemble a new splined coupling using a molybdenum grease (the black type not bearing  lm or stern gear grease).

The flywheel coupling adapter plate could be steel, I can see that it has been machined to fit a locating spigot on the flywheel which any new part will also need.

Yes you could get a sleeve to fit the pump so that you could use a keyed parallel bored coupling, but anything using this configuration would be to long.

Talk to people and see what you can find similar to what you have will be your best option, as this is a specialist type of coupling though I expect that cost may be several hundred pounds.  My recent experience if it is a non stock special item is about 8 weeks delivery if you have to buy from ringfeder.

Feel free to pm me if you need any more help.

[spicemouse]

On 05/06/2022 at 12:59, David Mack said:

whole hydraulic pump

Got a ball park quote for ~£4k for that, which would be nearly terminal! (they always wanted to replace most/all of the system).

 

18 hours ago, adrianh said:

My recent experience if it is a non stock special item is about 8 weeks delivery if you have to buy from ringfeder.

I'm hoping it'll be faster, 8 weeks I think I'd have to get a tow closer to a service as I'm about 5miles from the nearest Elsan point 😬 

[ditchcrawler]

On 04/06/2022 at 17:09, Tracy D'arth said:

Having a 13 spline may prove difficult. Without being able to measure it, pure guess work. I would think that R&D could produce something but I have no idea what sort of duty would be needed to drive a hydraulic pump rather than a gearbox. Perhaps asking them and sending the photos may be a good move. They are certainly the people to ask if a direct replacement is not available.

Every hydraulic drive I have seen uses a rubber cushion coupling of some sort.

My hydraulic drive is connected to the engine by a R&D plate no idea of the spline numbers as ARS organised it when it was ARS

[spicemouse]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

My hydraulic drive is connected to the engine by a R&D plate no idea of the spline numbers as ARS organised it when it was ARS

I might be well off here, but are R&D plates quite flat? I saw them discussed earlier and I think the gap in my system would require some sort of spacer on the flywheel. 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, spicemouse said:

I might be well off here, but are R&D plates quite flat? I saw them discussed earlier and I think the gap in my system would require some sort of spacer on the flywheel. 

The R&D drive plates shown so far are for conventional engine and gearbox. Ask them and show them what you have, they are engineers, they may have other drive plate solutions.

[David Mack]

32 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The R&D drive plates shown so far are for conventional engine and gearbox. Ask them and show them what you have, they are engineers, they may have other drive plate solutions.

But conventional gearboxes have splined input shafts like the OP's hydraulic pump, so R&D may well be able to provide a drive plate with a matching spline (and the right torque capacity). Then all that is needed is a spacer ring to go between the drive plate and the flywheel. An engineering machinist could make that up for a whole lot less than the cost of a new hydraulic setup.

Fit the spacer ring and drive plate to the flywheel, using a dial gauge to check that the drive plate is concentric with the crankshaft. Then mate the splines and bolt up the pump box.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

But conventional gearboxes have splined input shafts like the OP's hydraulic pump, so R&D may well be able to provide a drive plate with a matching spline (and the right torque capacity). Then all that is needed is a spacer ring to go between the drive plate and the flywheel. An engineering machinist could make that up for a whole lot less than the cost of a new hydraulic setup.

Fit the spacer ring and drive plate to the flywheel, using a dial gauge to check that the drive plate is concentric with the crankshaft. Then mate the splines and bolt up the pump box.

And then as a bonus you get a supplementary flywheel weight pad! 

[Mike Adams]

I am sure the engine drive plate is Aluminum. A decent welder should be able to weld the broken off parts back on  if you can find them all. It looks like you could build up the thickness of the original tangs while not affecting its operation. Then all you need is a new rubber coupling. Or as a temp fix you may find an HRC rubber insert of about the right size.