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Lost hydraulic drive


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The coupling has a groove for a  puller or extractor.......the spline will be packed up with red powder .....squirt petrol into the spline......two stroke mix is good too,it has a bit of oil in it.....anyway,the petrol will quickly free up the spline ,and it should slide off........unless its been slopped with Loctite on assembly.....some of these will resist heat and a 100 ton hydraulic press.................looks like the pump coupling may be custom made from welded steel......which is good news,because you can rebuild it with weld and machine to shape...............if you are lucky the flywheel unit will be steel too,and can be rebuilt with weld..............if its ductile iron,do not weld .

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I would not go squirting petrol or two stroke mix at it whist the unit is in the boat.  That is a recipe for a disaster as the petrol vapour will sit in the bilge waiting to catch fire or  possibly explode.  Diesel by all means, or better, a proper penetrating oil (not WD40).

 

N

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54 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I find your photos difficult to work out because they often show so little of the surrounding area.

Sorry Tony, I'm often trying to get as much in advance I can but not knowing what's the important part and having limited space & hands can be tricky. 

 

This is my current situation.PXL_20220604_085920867_copy_600x1067.jpg.481f740f6b633cd1d09be42836e4e9b2.jpg

 

I'll have allen keys later for the plate on the flywheel. I'll try the other ideas for the one on the unit, though I don't know where the squirting should be aimed. 

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47 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

Sorry Tony, I'm often trying to get as much in advance I can but not knowing what's the important part and having limited space & hands can be tricky. 

 

Yes its counter-intuitive to take photos from a long way back, but for people viewing it's much more helpful to see the whole scene. We can zoom in on a photo posted to see the detail but we can't zoom out to look at the whole installation. There is so much 'soft' info we can pick up from the whole scene, such as seeing where pipes and wires come from or go to, and understanding the way the boat has been designed/built/constructed in the first place. 

 

Writing this not as a criticism but as guidance for future readers and posters....

 

 

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1 hour ago, spicemouse said:

Sorry Tony, I'm often trying to get as much in advance I can but not knowing what's the important part and having limited space & hands can be tricky. 

 

This is my current situation.PXL_20220604_085920867_copy_600x1067.jpg.481f740f6b633cd1d09be42836e4e9b2.jpg

 

I'll have allen keys later for the plate on the flywheel. I'll try the other ideas for the one on the unit, though I don't know where the squirting should be aimed. 

The hub on the pump shaft must be held some way. If not mechanically with a pin through or a screw then it may be Loctite and a solvent squirted into the splined centre may soften it.

 

Or its an interference fit and need a puller.

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No need for an apology, at least you try to provide the info we ask for.

 

FWIW On our Hydrive boats the pump had a splined shaft over which we slid an adaptor that had another set of splines that matched a standard drive plate. The adaptor, in some cases, had a grub screw in one side.

 

I think what the photo is showing us is what has been slid over the pump splines to transmit drive from the "coupling" to the motor shaft.

 

Any solvent/petrol/penetrating oil needs to go into the hole in the centre that has the spline grooves inside it, but I fear the splines may have been chattering, so they are now worn into a sort of step shape that prevents you just pulling or levering the splined boss of the motor shaft.

 

There is a large disk bolted to the front of the reservoir assembly that looks as if it is covered in grease. Do not try to remove this unless you want to risk dumping all the oil into the bilge. I think that is how you get the  pump out. You could try lverng between that greasy plate and the part you want off.

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I've managed to recovered I think all of the old coupling that hasn't been vaporized. 

PXL_20220604_123552861_copy_567x1008.jpg.a37e8e4e0a36ec63bbef5f5cfdec6c2b.jpg

 

And I'm using a screw driver and hammer to push the coupling off.

PXL_20220604_123534857_copy_567x1008.jpg.8b0cfd860ba0e31e03307336290d896f.jpg

 

Now the screwdriver isn't wide enough I'll need to think up something else. Spline grooves says visible now through the gap. 

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4 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

All I have to hand is WD40, diesel, and petrol (which I don't fancy using) 

I would dab some engine oil inside the end of the coupling around the end of the pump shaft, then put some diesel in there. The diesel will penetrate the gap between the splined shaft and the coupling and should carry some of the oil in.

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Ended up using a spanner and gently levering it off with a pole, mm at a time turning regularly. Maybe the diesel did it's thing too, though hard to say how much made it to the splines. 

PXL_20220604_131153821.MP_copy_567x1008_copy_551x619.jpg.05cffff27093e157624ca89a5c745a07.jpg

 

It says, 3 1963. That can't be the date surely? Anyway, the other side will be off soon as I get the allen keys. Then it'll be a matter of finding a replacement and working out how to fit it. 

Edited by spicemouse
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50 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

Ended up using a spanner and gently levering it off with a pole, mm at a time turning regularly. Maybe the diesel did it's thing too, though hard to say how much made it to the splines. 

PXL_20220604_131153821.MP_copy_567x1008_copy_551x619.jpg.05cffff27093e157624ca89a5c745a07.jpg

 

It says, 3 1963. That can't be the date surely? Anyway, the other side will be off soon as I get the allen keys. Then it'll be a matter of finding a replacement and working out how to fit it. 

 

It could well be 1963. I think the bit you have just taken off just pushes onto the motor splines and sits there. Now we can see it I don't think there is much wrong with that piece so can be reused.

 

I am still concerned about the splines although the one sin the photo look OK to me, but I would like to see the splines on the pump, just to be sure.

 

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27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Now we can see it I don't think there is much wrong with that piece so can be reused.

It's quite worn on the faces of the jaws/blades, clearly been running metal on metal for some time. 

I think this is the part I'm looking for: http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/uploads/catalogs/baws014-ex-gbr-2_1343603272.pdf  

image.png.2d640e757eee55fed4f32ed8922ce767.png

The TSCHAN-S SV (by Ringfeder). From the chart in the PDF I'm hoping the replacement will be off the shelf, though it looks like it uses a pin rather than splines. 

 

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8 minutes ago, spicemouse said:

It's quite worn on the faces of the jaws/blades, clearly been running metal on metal for some time. 

I think this is the part I'm looking for: http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/uploads/catalogs/baws014-ex-gbr-2_1343603272.pdf  

image.png.2d640e757eee55fed4f32ed8922ce767.png

The TSCHAN-S SV (by Ringfeder). From the chart in the PDF I'm hoping the replacement will be off the shelf, though it looks like it uses a pin rather than splines. 

 

An engineering shop should be able to recover the piece off the pump by welding and die grinding it back to shape so that each claw is symmetrical again.

 

If you can't get a replacement that would be easier and cheaper than getting a new one broached into splines.

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1 hour ago, spicemouse said:

I think this is the part I'm looking for: http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/uploads/catalogs/baws014-ex-gbr-2_1343603272.pdf  

image.png.2d640e757eee55fed4f32ed8922ce767.png

The TSCHAN-S SV (by Ringfeder). From the chart in the PDF I'm hoping the replacement will be off the shelf, though it looks like it uses a pin rather than splines. 

Except that one has 10 lobes on the insert and 5 'claws' on the flanges, whereas yours needs a 6 lobe insert. I suspect that since the insert is missing and the engine flange is damaged it would be as cheap to buy a whole coupling as those two parts. You don't need an identical coupling, you just need one with the same bolt configuration to attach to the flywheel and the same spline to fit the pump input shaft, and a torque capacity to match the engine. And if you can't get the same bolt configuration (e.g. original is to imperial dimensions and current models are metric) you could always buy the nearest equivalent and then have a new set of holes drilled to match the flywheel.

Edited by David Mack
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5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Would an R and D damper drive plate do the job?

http://www.randdmarine.com

mdamperpopim.jpg.0b1271863dd4f13cc68ec0487861d1eb.jpg

 

Having a 13 spline may prove difficult. Without being able to measure it, pure guess work. I would think that R&D could produce something but I have no idea what sort of duty would be needed to drive a hydraulic pump rather than a gearbox. Perhaps asking them and sending the photos may be a good move. They are certainly the people to ask if a direct replacement is not available.

Every hydraulic drive I have seen uses a rubber cushion coupling of some sort.

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6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Would an R and D damper drive plate do the job?

http://www.randdmarine.com

mdamperpopim.jpg.0b1271863dd4f13cc68ec0487861d1eb.jpg

 

 

That is what our Hydrive boats used with an adaptor to convert from motor splines to drive plate spines on the 2.2s. I think the 1.5s used drive plates with splines that matched the pump shaft so a direct fit. However, in the OPs case he would probably have to pack the drive plate away from the flywheel to allow for the thickness of the rubber/plastic insert

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Every hydraulic drive I have seen uses a rubber cushion coupling of some sort.

 

As I said ours did not and neither did the Wilds Caribbean cruisers, but that was in the early 70s, very much pioneering the system. FWIW maybe 10 years ago I met a cruiser we built in the later 70s on the GU still with its hydraulic drive working but by the sound not very efficiently. I suspect that was wear in the pump, valve and motor rather than a drive plate problem.

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If this is attached to a splined pump shaft then most definitely do not use a slide hammer. At best you will damage the pump bearings, at worst you will pull the shaft out of the pump and wreck it.

Check for a locking grub screw in the coupling hub or possibly a bolt and washer hidden just inside the splined end that might secure the coupling against a circlip in the splined section.

A splined drive is not normally a tight fit on a pump, the coupling is usually retained in place

A splined pump shaft is bad news for the new coupling as you will need to identify its form. Hopefully it will match one of the agricultural specs. You may have to open up the tank to get the details from the pump to be sure.

To look on the ringfeder site for details you have to register with them to be able to download data sheets for stock couplings, or alternatively as acorn industries for help .

One last thought , you may find a suitable alternative Italian coupling from JBJ Techniques.

 

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The splined coupling from the pump doesnt look too bad ........I d say its reusable as is...........not perfect,but reusable.............the coupling half off the flywheel is completely gone,as can be seen,and is very likely a soft cast iron ,judging by the wear...................anyway,I suspect that a generic coupling of that type will have to be turned to diameter and drilled to suit the flywheel ........unless an original spare part can be found.

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