New here springer 23

[ditchcrawler]

13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

As the boat is currently out of the water, if you're really interested then I think it would be worth getting a hull survey. You can check the rest yourself and run the outboard In a garden water butt. 

 

You save a little bit because the boat is already out of the water and a small boat like that shouldn't cost more than about say £400 just for a hull survey. Others can correct that figure it it's wrong.

 

But if it needs extensive replating/overplating be prepared to walk away!

I do wonder how hard it would be to get someone to do that to a steel hull in Norfolk, not the most common types of hull this side of the Country..

 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, Barneyp said:

I think I've seen you post this before and I'm wondering what you are basing it on.

The BSS seems to say 60 Litres max in portable tanks*, max 30 litre tank, and max 30 litres "spare fuel". There are rules about how many and what size the containers of the spare fuel can be, and about the main tank, but one 30 litre tank and one 30 litre spare tank appear to be acceptable, so 60 litres in total. 

Am I misunderstanding the BSS, or is there another regulation I am unaware of?

 

*I can't see any maximum size for permanently installed tanks, but they would be unlikely with an outboard.

 

The legislation for storage of petrol state a maximum of 30 litres in 'non installed' containers, so if you have a permanent tank (like in a car) then you can have as much as it will hold - the petrol tank on my Fairline 23, that I had on the Thames was 400 litres.You are then allowed an additional 30 litres in cans.

 

If your outboard has a 'typical' free standing red can, then that is included in the 30 litre allowances. The petrol tank (unless installed) counts as a 'demountable fuel tank'  and counts towards the 30 litre limit.

 

I have had several outboard powered boats with integral (built in tanks)

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

 

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

suitable portable metal or plastic containers

one demountable fuel tank

a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft.

 

What containers can I use to store petrol?

The legislation allows you to store petrol in the following containers:

plastic containers storing up to 10 litres

metal containers storing up to 20 litres

demountable fuel tank up to 30 litres

Suitable portable containers are defined in Schedule 2 (para 6) and Schedule 3 of the regulations. UN approved containers are an example of such containers.

More detailed information on portable petrol storage containers (PDF) - Portable Document Format is available.

 

Does the petrol in the fuel tank of my car count towards the total I can store?

No – the petrol in the fuel tank of your vehicle, including boats and aircraft, does not count when you are calculating the total amount you are storing.

How much petrol can I store on a vehicle?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol in a maximum of 2 suitable containers in your vehicle.  For the purpose of these Regulations a ‘vehicle’ is interpreted as any type of vehicle so includes boats, aircraft and hovercraft. This type of storage counts towards the total you can store at non workplace premises. Carriage of petrol is covered by the Carriage of Dangerous Goods (CDG) and the European agreement (ADR).

 

 

 

 

Here are two of the outboard powered boats I have had with integral petrol fuel tanks.

The Bayliner on the left has 250 litres tank, and the Benetau had a 300 litre tank.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[doratheexplorer]

11 hours ago, MtB said:

 

"Need" is very hard to pin down. For me, 'needs overplating' means it won't float because of all the holes. For an insurance company offering to cover fully comp, it means the 4.7mm steel has not rusted away anywhere to less than 4.0mm, which is a near racing certainty. Never mind it will probably still be floating in another 50 years with good maintenance and no overplating, they will insist on the 4.7mm hull pointlessly having 5mm of new extra steel blobbed on top.

 

Back in the day we just had boats and used them until they sank. Nowadays non-technical people seem to want boats too but treat them like houses and expect then to be insured so they have no losses if Something Goes Wrong. Understandable I suppose if you have a £100k shiny monument that owns you not the other way around, but for a cheap Springer I'd just buy it and use it, and suck it up if an unlikely disaster happens. And for that you only need TP insurance which costs £76 with virtually no questions asked from Basic Boat Insurance. https://www.basic-boat.com/index.php

 

 

 

 

This is the best advice on the thread.  £13k for a tidy, reasonably looked after Springer with an internal fit out including a kitchen, bathroom, hot water and a stove is a really good price in the current market, as long as there's nothing those photos aren't hiding.  If I were you, I'd get a survey, look for at least 3mm on the hull, forget overplating and get cheap third party insurance.  Then get out and enjoy your boat.

 

I've seen much worse than this, up for similar or considerably more money.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The legislation for storage of petrol state a maximum of 30 litres in 'non installed' containers, so if you have a permanent tank (like in a car) then you can have as much as it will hold - the petrol tank on my Fairline 23, that I had on the Thames was 400 litres.You are then allowed an additional 30 litres in cans.

 

If your outboard has a 'typical' free standing red can, then that is included in the 30 litre allowances. The petrol tank (unless installed) counts as a 'demountable fuel tank'  and counts towards the 30 litre limit.

 

I have had several outboard powered boats with integral (built in tanks)

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

 

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

suitable portable metal or plastic containers

one demountable fuel tank

a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft.

 

What containers can I use to store petrol?

The legislation allows you to store petrol in the following containers:

plastic containers storing up to 10 litres

metal containers storing up to 20 litres

demountable fuel tank up to 30 litres

Suitable portable containers are defined in Schedule 2 (para 6) and Schedule 3 of the regulations. UN approved containers are an example of such containers.

More detailed information on portable petrol storage containers (PDF) - Portable Document Format is available.

 

Does the petrol in the fuel tank of my car count towards the total I can store?

No – the petrol in the fuel tank of your vehicle, including boats and aircraft, does not count when you are calculating the total amount you are storing.

How much petrol can I store on a vehicle?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol in a maximum of 2 suitable containers in your vehicle.  For the purpose of these Regulations a ‘vehicle’ is interpreted as any type of vehicle so includes boats, aircraft and hovercraft. This type of storage counts towards the total you can store at non workplace premises. Carriage of petrol is covered by the Carriage of Dangerous Goods (CDG) and the European agreement (ADR).

 

 

 

 

Here are two of the outboard powered boats I have had with integral petrol fuel tanks.

The Bayliner on the left has 250 litres tank, and the Benetau had a 300 litre tank.

I remember during the 1973 oil crisis my Father hoarding several 5 gallon drums of petrol in the back of the garage just in case. Don't know what the regulations were back then, but I suspect he may have breached them. But I do know he was a bit concerned that some of the drums had previously held red diesel for the boat, and he was unsure of the consequences of being found with red petrol in the car fuel tank.

[Barneyp]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The legislation for storage of petrol state a maximum of 30 litres in 'non installed' containers, so if you have a permanent tank (like in a car) then you can have as much as it will hold - the petrol tank on my Fairline 23, that I had on the Thames was 400 litres.

You are then allowed an additional 30 litres in cans.

 

If your outboard has a 'typical' free standing red can, then that is included in the 30 litre allowances. The petrol tank (unless installed) counts as a 'demountable fuel tank'  and counts towards the 30 litre limit.

 

........

Thanks Alan

 

The BSS has separate sections for "installed fuel systems" "portable fuel systems" ( your "typical" free standing red can) and spare petrol containers".

Portable and spare each have a maximum of 30 litres, but there is no mention of the fact that the combined maximum is also 30 litres. So I could fit my boat out to pass the BSS, but it would be illegal!!

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

Thanks Alan

 

The BSS has separate sections for "installed fuel systems" "portable fuel systems" ( your "typical" free standing red can) and spare petrol containers".

Portable and spare each have a maximum of 30 litres, but there is no mention of the fact that the combined maximum is also 30 litres. So I could fit my boat out to pass the BSS, but it would be illegal!!

 

 

You seem surprised ?

 

There are a number of strange anomolies in the BSS, but Hey-Ho you only need to comply with the BSS to get your licence, but, H&S & your insurers may not be so happy if you have 2x as much petrol in cans as you should have ,and, the 'worst happens'.

[Barneyp]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You seem surprised ?

 

There are a number of strange anomolies in the BSS, but Hey-Ho you only need to comply with the BSS to get your licence, but, H&S & your insurers may not be so happy if you have 2x as much petrol in cans as you should have ,and, the 'worst happens'.

Not so much surprised, more disappointed.

I've been lurking on the forum for a while and was aware that a lot of BSS inspections were not carried out correctly or fully (e.g. your experience with out of date fire extinguishers), also that many people consider elements of the criteria to be a bit OTT, and that the BSS may have over reached their remit in some areas.

 

But I did think that the criteria would be a useful guide for the full refit I am doing on my Norman 23, I hadn't really considered that I might need to check the HSE website and possibly other sites as well.

 

Technically the info in the BSS isn't wrong, it is just incomplete. 30 litres of petrol in a portable tank is legal, and 30 litres of petrol in back up containers is legal, they just don't tell you that both at the same time is not legal. What's more annoying is that their source for the 30 litre max is presumably the HSE, possibly the same document you posted, they could have linked to it or included it in the criteria.

 

Anyway at least I know now, thank you.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You seem surprised ?

 

There are a number of strange anomolies in the BSS, but Hey-Ho you only need to comply with the BSS to get your licence, but, H&S & your insurers may not be so happy if you have 2x as much petrol in cans as you should have ,and, the 'worst happens'.

If the worse happens they will never find out.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

But I did think that the criteria would be a useful guide for the full refit I am doing on my Norman 23, I hadn't really considered that I might need to check the HSE website and possibly other sites as well.

 

Instead of using the BSS (which is not intended to be used as a way to refit a boat correctly) use the correct documents as listed in each section of the RCD / RCR regulations.

 

I have many of the most needed specifications (12v DC Electrics, 230v AC Electrics, fuels/hoses and gas installations) you'd be welcome to a Pdf copy of them.

 

Eg :

All wiring must be multistranded (no of strands specified in specs), maximum number of cables on any terminal = 4, etc etc etc)

 

Some of the relevant specs I have :

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Mad Harold]

Giving the OP's question more thought,(if he hasn't run off gibbering incoherently) 

If it was me thinking about that boat, I think if I really liked it, I would dispense with the hassle and  expense  of a survey,insure third party, ensure there were two working bilge pumps,(one in the engine bilge, and one in the cabin bilge, ) and go off and enjoy the boat.

If and when it springs a leak, then do something about it.

This could be weeks,it could also be years.

Buying any boat is a risk.

[Slim]

Another option is to 'invest' between £80 and £150 in an ultrasonic tester and try a bit of DIY testing. It might give a clue as to whether it's a collinder or not. You could always sell it on later. Who knows I may even make a bid.

[Barneyp]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Instead of using the BSS (which is not intended to be used as a way to refit a boat correctly) use the correct documents as listed in each section of the RCD / RCR regulations.

 

I have many of the most needed specifications (12v DC Electrics, 230v AC Electrics, fuels/hoses and gas installations) you'd be welcome to a Pdf copy of them.

.......

I know the BSS is not intended as a guide to refit a boat but it is (in theory) the standard the refitted boat will be judged against, as a 50+ year old boat it will not need to be measured against the RCD/RCR regs.

 

I'm using the info on Tony Brooks' web page as a guide to doing the electrics.

 

I do have access to the ISO pdf's and will check what I intend to do against them, but they don't include UK specific laws which I had hoped would be included in the BSS.

 

Thank you for the offer anyway.

[Barneyp]

1 hour ago, Slim said:

Another option is to 'invest' between £80 and £150 in an ultrasonic tester and try a bit of DIY testing. It might give a clue as to whether it's a collinder or not. You could always sell it on later. Who knows I may even make a bid.

Not sure I'd put much faith in the results of a relatively cheap tester in the hands of an amateur, given the boat is out of the water you should be able to give it a close inspection. If you want to know hull thickness it would be better to get a surveyor.

I still think the biggest problem with this boat is it is not designed for the waterways the op wants to use it on, a grp cruiser may not look as good but would be far more useable and safer.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Barneyp said:

I do have access to the ISO pdf's and will check what I intend to do against them, but they don't include UK specific laws which I had hoped would be included in the BSS.

 

 

Hope away to your heart's content. I can't think of any actual laws (UK specific or otherwise) that govern anything in the BSS.

 

As Alan has already pointed out, the only law covering boat building standards is the RCR, and its scope is mainly new boats plus, I think possibly, major changes to existing boats like engine swaps. 

 

 

[Barneyp]

24 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Hope away to your heart's content. I can't think of any actual laws (UK specific or otherwise) that govern anything in the BSS.

 

As Alan has already pointed out, the only law covering boat building standards is the RCR, and its scope is mainly new boats plus, I think possibly, major changes to existing boats like engine swaps. 

 

 

There are laws/regulations that effect boat building/fitting out/operating but are not specifically about boats (eg the petrol storage regulations that Alan quoted, gas regulations etc)that I had imagined the BSS would have taken account of and included in their requirements, but they haven't- at least not fully.

The RCD/RCR is based on ISO's so even that doesn't include UK law, there isn't a single set of regulations or guidance that includes all relevant laws or regulations.

[LadyG]

On 23/05/2022 at 22:24, Tracy D'arth said:

When buying a boat, stand in front of the seller, with a witness, and ask pointedly " What is wrong or not correct or needs repairing with this boat?" You can then throw it back if there is an undisclosed defect.

That may work in theory, but the broker or vendor may just say he is not able to say.

After all,  the boat, any second hand boat is sold as seen, there are no guarantees as to hull condition or anything else.

I had an auctioneer tell me it would be reckless not to be insured before I handed over a ring they valued at £1000.

The ring, and £200,000 of goods were stolen, no one got paid. And in fact at first they said it would only be £850. They were supposedy  'respected'.

I would spend more time on research, and buy a good plastic.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by LadyG

[David Mack]

16 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

ensure there were two working bilge pumps,(one in the engine bilge, and one in the cabin bilge, ) 

This is an outboard powered Springer. So the 'engine bilge' will be the water it is floating in. Good luck with trying to pump that dry!

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

This is an outboard powered Springer. So the 'engine bilge' will be the water it is floating in. Good luck with trying to pump that dry!

 

 

And if the OP succeeds, overplating will definitely be unnecessary.

 

 

[Mad Harold]

45 minutes ago, David Mack said:

This is an outboard powered Springer. So the 'engine bilge' will be the water it is floating in. Good luck with trying to pump that dry!

Fully aware of the outboard.

There may be a bulkhead between the cabin and the rear deck.

Surely with an old boat it would be sensible to have two bilge pumps.

They are not very expensive, and are easy to install.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Fully aware of the outboard.

There may be a bulkhead between the cabin and the rear deck.

Surely with an old boat it would be sensible to have two bilge pumps.

They are not very expensive, and are easy to install.

 

 

I think it was more your 'terminology'........... "put a bilge pump in the engine bilge" that was jokingly being commented on.

[Crewcut]

Go have a look see what you think but the space in there will be tiny, the windows likely need refitting - there's evidence of water leaks in pics so there could also be water under the floor...

 

If you want to boat on the Broads I'd echo the suggestion to go fibreglass, water sitting in an FG bilge doesn't matter much, easier to repair yourself. have a look at the Seamaster 30 they have on their books for a smidge more and I think you'll soon change your mind...

 

BUT do get yourself a boat, boats are great. Get the best one you can, projects end up costing more than it would have cost to get a good to go one in the first place. If you can't afford a decent one it's easier to do some more paid work until you can than taking on a project. They're all projects anyway that require spending money and time on & you will either need deep pockets or be prepared to learn how stuff works and how to fix it yourself...

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Crewcut said:

have a look at the Seamaster 30 they have on their books for a smidge more and I think you'll soon change your mind...

 

 

 

I agree. Mighty fine boat far better in every way than a tiny Springer, provided you don't need a boat less than 7ft wide.

 

[Guest]

On 23/05/2022 at 16:03, Iceberg1 said:

Hello,

 

I am new to this forum (first post) and new to the world of narrowboats, I am located close to the Norfolk broads and have seen a Springer 23 advertised locally. See below:

 

https://www.wayfordmarine.com/advert/23-foot-springer-narrow-boat/

 

What do you guys think of it from the pictures and what you can see, is the price appropriate for a boat like this? What would I be looking out for when I go to view it? If I like the boat then I will get it surveyed. I have emailed the Brooker and they say the hull is fine, no signs of it being over plated but I'm sure of year. 

 

Thanks everyone and have a good day.  

 

 

 

What is the attraction of a Narrowboat to be used on the wide rivers of the Broads? I cant think of any.

 

Yes you do see them but the Broads are really suited to wider boats and a GRP cruiser would IMHO be a much better bet, more internal space too.

 

Yes they are arguably harder to keep warm (i know this from experience!) in colder weather but if the intended use is leisure boating I personally wouldnt even entertain a narrowboat. Grp boats can be had for a similar price to that Springer.

[mrsmelly]

17 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

What is the attraction of a Narrowboat to be used on the wide rivers of the Broads? I cant think of any.

 

Yes you do see them but the Broads are really suited to wider boats and a GRP cruiser would IMHO be a much better bet, more internal space too.

 

Yes they are arguably harder to keep warm (i know this from experience!) in colder weather but if the intended use is leisure boating I personally wouldnt even entertain a narrowboat. Grp boats can be had for a similar price to that Springer.

There are zero benefits to be had from a narrow beam boat over just about any other kind. The beam is bloody awful. The one, and only reason to ever buy one is the damned 7 feet wide locks left for us by accountants from centuries ago.

[Jim Riley]

Re the outboard and fuel, I have a 35ft NB with a Honda 20hp shoving it along, or dragging it backwards wherever I want to go in reverse (try that in a standard NB). The outboard makes the boat very manouverable. Prop clearing is a doddle. 

 

I have 2 X 15ltr tanks, last about 3 days each. Tanks will fit on a small trolley or on the rack on the folding bike. Not run out of fuel yet. 

One issue is electrickery, getting enough! I have 450 ah of battery and a 135w solar panel, outboard puts out 12ah, all led lights, so no problems when on the move or for a week or so if stopped. 

If the engine needs repair I can lift it off and take it home. Don't be put off by an outboard, it's an asset.