New here springer 23

[Iceberg1]

Hello,

 

I am new to this forum (first post) and new to the world of narrowboats, I am located close to the Norfolk broads and have seen a Springer 23 advertised locally. See below:

 

https://www.wayfordmarine.com/advert/23-foot-springer-narrow-boat/

 

What do you guys think of it from the pictures and what you can see, is the price appropriate for a boat like this? What would I be looking out for when I go to view it? If I like the boat then I will get it surveyed. I have emailed the Brooker and they say the hull is fine, no signs of it being over plated but I'm sure of year. 

 

Thanks everyone and have a good day.  

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Iceberg1

[Athy]

Welcome to the forum.

Springers are very good boats provided that they have been looked after. The price looks acceptable for an example in good condition - though it is over 10 years since I bought a Springer, so I may be out of touch.

When you say that you are sure of the year,, do you mean that you ar4e NOT sure of the year? The last Springers were built in 1994. From the photo, this one could be from mid-'80s to 1994.

Do be aware that this boat is powered by an outboard petrol engine.

[Iceberg1]

Hello and thank you for replying. I have heard mixed things regarding springers online so glad someone with experience thinks they are good if looked after. I did get nervous when looking for insurance quotes and one of the questions was "is it a Springer"

 

Yes sorry I did mean not sure of year but hopefully will be able to check that when I go to view. Yes I am aware of the outboard. I plan to use it on the Norfolk broads so the distances one can travel isn't that far compared to the canals haha. 

[Tracy D'arth]

It looks good but freshly tarted?  

Small Springers with outboards  were built with very thin steel to keep the weight down for trailering.  Just about any pitting will put them below the 4mm limit that the insurance companies are now insisting on for fully comprehensive insurance.

 

Be aware of the hazards of petrol on a boat. More difficult to get a BSS certificate.

 

Many boaters started out with Springers and there are still loads about though many are in a seriously bad condition and many have been overplated to sometimes poor standards.  The problem overplating a short boat is the dramatic effect on buoyancy the extra weight causes, sometimes reducing the freeboard to a serious degree.

 

I wish you well, enjoy boating.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Iceberg1 said:

Yes sorry I did mean not sure of year but hopefully will be able to check that when I go to view. Yes I am aware of the outboard. I plan to use it on the Norfolk broads so the distances one can travel isn't that far compared to the canals haha. 

 

The problem is not how far you can travel, but how far you have to walk to get a can of petrol, You are only allowed by law to carry a maximum of 30 litres.

 

The other issue is the much higher risks involved with petrol, differing safety examination requirements when it is a petrol powered boat and, higher insurance premiums (reflecting the higher risks).

 

If it has not been overplated - it will most likely require it very soon (unless you are exceptonally lucky - and if so, buy a lottery ticket at the same time)

 

Request that the surveyor looks closely at hull thicknesses. The 23 foot springers were generally built with 3/16" (4.7mm) steel and today you cannot insure it (fully comprehensive) with less than 4mm steel - and - it is unlikely to have increased in thickness in the last 30-40 years.

 

If it is in good condition, it does not look an expensive boat in todays market.

[Tony Brooks]

I suspect petrol may be more readily available bankside on the Broads than the canals. Any local  knowledge?

[Iceberg1]

If the boat did need over playing in the next few years do you guys know a ball park figure for a boat of this size? And if boatyards on the broads would have the expertise to carry out the work? As nosy boats on the boards are either fibreglass or wood. 

 

Yes most of the marinas on the broads stock petrol as a lot of the smaller craft run on petrol. 

[Tracy D'arth]

The regular guys overplating Springers are Streethay Wharf. I suggest you ask them for an accurate quote. I know nothing about the Broads, but I doubt there are many steel fabricators there. 

[PeterScott]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The regular guys overplating Springers are Streethay Wharf. I suggest you ask them for an accurate quote....

Yes, good place to get a quote: these days the steel price will be accurate for 48hrs or so ....

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, Iceberg1 said:

If the boat did need over playing in the next few years do you guys know a ball park figure for a boat of this size? And if boatyards on the broads would have the expertise to carry out the work? As nosy boats on the boards are either fibreglass or wood. 

 

Yes most of the marinas on the broads stock petrol as a lot of the smaller craft run on petrol. 

The last I heard about the cost of a base and sides overplate, was £200+ per foot.

For the price of that Springer,   you could buy a really nice grp cruiser and not have the rust problems.

As you are near the Broads ( lucky man) * perhaps a grp cruiser would be more suitable. No need to have a silly narrowbeam.

*I am in Huddersfield, have a scroll back and read about all the stoppages in the North, and you will see why I think you are lucky!

Edited May 23, 2022 by Mad Harold

[Slow and Steady]

3 hours ago, Iceberg1 said:

do you guys know a ball park figure for a boat of this size?

A better question would be "If the boat did need over playing in the next few years would you buy it?"

No. Why deliberately put yourself through that?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

The last I heard about the cost of a base and sides overplate, was £200+ per foot.

For the price of that Springer,   you could buy a really nice grp cruiser and not have the rust problems.

 

Being V-Hulled the price for Springers reckons to be 1.5 or 2x the cost of a flat bottom boat.

Even getting it out of the water and onto supports costs twice as much, as you need to use some form of 'legs' or stands (like a conventional boat)  rather than just standing it on a railway sleeper or two.

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Barneyp]

If the boat is as good as the advert says then it is potentially a good buy.

You need to look at and test everything, check both rings and the grill work on the cooker, check the water heater works. Don't just take the brokers word for it, ask to actually try them out.

As well getting the hull checked for rust you need to test the outboard, it has just been serviced but that doesn't prove it is in good condition and reliable, can they put the boat in the water for you to try it out?

 

The v hull shouldn't be a problem, most broads boats have a v hull, so the boat yards are used to dealing with them.

 

More importantly, why a narrowboat? 

A grp cruiser would be better suited to the moorings available, give you more space for the same money, and be better able to cope with the tidal flow and currents you are likely to experience. Also virtually all broads boats are grp, so you will struggle to find boatyards who have the skills to work on steel narrowboats.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Barneyp

[booke23]

I'd definitely want to see it in the water and a survey is a must. 

 

From the photos I can see pretty much every window shows signs of long term water ingress, so you'd want to look at the bilges for signs of water and corrosion. The windows will have to be completely removed to remedy this properly. Looks like it's fitted with a sea toilet....which I assume flushes to a holding tank, potentially a very good setup but worth investigating the holding tank (is it steel and integral to the hull? If so it might be close to rusting though) 

 

A 1982 27ft conventional narrowboat with an inboard diesel engine sold in a marina near me recently for £16,500, it was in much better condition internally compared to this springer, so I'd say the asking price is on the high side considering it has an outboard so don't be afraid to put in a lower offer......after you've had it surveyed!

Edited May 23, 2022 by booke23

[Barneyp]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The problem is not how far you can travel, but how far you have to walk to get a can of petrol, You are only allowed by law to carry a maximum of 30 litres.

.......

I think I've seen you post this before and I'm wondering what you are basing it on.

The BSS seems to say 60 Litres max in portable tanks*, max 30 litre tank, and max 30 litres "spare fuel". There are rules about how many and what size the containers of the spare fuel can be, and about the main tank, but one 30 litre tank and one 30 litre spare tank appear to be acceptable, so 60 litres in total. 

Am I misunderstanding the BSS, or is there another regulation I am unaware of?

 

*I can't see any maximum size for permanently installed tanks, but they would be unlikely with an outboard.

[Tracy D'arth]

When buying a boat, stand in front of the seller, with a witness, and ask pointedly " What is wrong or not correct or needs repairing with this boat?" You can then throw it back if there is an undisclosed defect.

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

I think I've seen you post this before and I'm wondering what you are basing it on.

The BSS seems to say 60 Litres max in portable tanks*, max 30 litre tank, and max 30 litres "spare fuel". There are rules about how many and what size the containers of the spare fuel can be, and about the main tank, but one 30 litre tank and one 30 litre spare tank appear to be acceptable, so 60 litres in total. 

Am I misunderstanding the BSS, or is there another regulation I am unaware of?

 

*I can't see any maximum size for permanently installed tanks, but they would be unlikely with an outboard.

Try going to Tesco and buying 60 lts of petrol in cans to take to your boat

[Ianws]

Petrol station rules 

 

[Stroudwater1]

34 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Try going to Tesco and buying 60 lts of petrol in cans to take to your boat

Probably best to get 30 litres one time and 30 litres the next = 60? 

 

60l is a lot to carry at one time anyway, so two trips are best anyway? 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Stroudwater1

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Probably best to get 30 litres one time and 30 litres the next = 60? 

 

60l is a lot to carry at one time anyway, so two trips are best anyway? 

They are not all as generous as Sainsburys 

[Steve Buxton]

55 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

I think I've seen you post this before and I'm wondering what you are basing it on.

The BSS seems to say 60 Litres max in portable tanks*, max 30 litre tank, and max 30 litres "spare fuel". There are rules about how many and what size the containers of the spare fuel can be, and about the main tank, but one 30 litre tank and one 30 litre spare tank appear to be acceptable, so 60 litres in total. 

Am I misunderstanding the BSS, or is there another regulation I am unaware of?

 

*I can't see any maximum size for permanently installed tanks, but they would be unlikely with an outboard.

We have a 23 foot narrowboat from Jordan Marine, Nottingham and it has a substantial inbuilt petrol tank supplying the outboard engine. I put 10 litres in the other day and it hardly registered on the dipstick.

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Iceberg1 said:

If the boat did need over playing in the next few years do you guys know a ball park figure for a boat of this size?

 

"Need" is very hard to pin down. For me, 'needs overplating' means it won't float because of all the holes. For an insurance company offering to cover fully comp, it means the 4.7mm steel has not rusted away anywhere to less than 4.0mm, which is a near racing certainty. Never mind it will probably still be floating in another 50 years with good maintenance and no overplating, they will insist on the 4.7mm hull pointlessly having 5mm of new extra steel blobbed on top.

 

Back in the day we just had boats and used them until they sank. Nowadays non-technical people seem to want boats too but treat them like houses and expect then to be insured so they have no losses if Something Goes Wrong. Understandable I suppose if you have a £100k shiny monument that owns you not the other way around, but for a cheap Springer I'd just buy it and use it, and suck it up if an unlikely disaster happens. And for that you only need TP insurance which costs £76 with virtually no questions asked from Basic Boat Insurance. https://www.basic-boat.com/index.php

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

When buying a boat, stand in front of the seller, with a witness, and ask pointedly " What is wrong or not correct or needs repairing with this boat?" You can then throw it back if there is an undisclosed defect.

 

What does "throw it back" actually mean? 

 

I don't think it would stand up in a small claims court. Surely caveat emptor applies and the seller could just claim they were unaware of the defect?

 

Perhaps throw it back just means you could go back to the seller and say "You told me there was nothing wrong with it!" For what that's worth! 

Edited May 24, 2022 by blackrose

[Barneyp]

9 hours ago, Ianws said:

Petrol station rules 

 

According to the Health and Safety Executive as well as a max 10 litre plastic container or max 20 litre metal container you can also fill a "demountable fuel tank" (no maximum size is given). I'm guessing most supermarket forecourts might not like you doing it, but petrol stations near marina's or waterways are likely to be more understanding.

And yes 2 x 30 litres of petrol in one go would be a lot to carry.

 

 

What containers can be filled at a petrol station?

Only 'suitable portable containers' can be filled with petrol ie:

• plastic containers up to 10 litres
• metal containers up to 20 litres
• a demountable fuel tank

Suitable portable containers are defined in Schedule 2 (para 6) and Schedule 3 of the regulations. UN approved containers are an example of such containers.

[blackrose]

As the boat is currently out of the water, if you're really interested then I think it would be worth getting a hull survey. You can check the rest yourself and run the outboard In a garden water butt. 

 

You save a little bit because the boat is already out of the water and a small boat like that shouldn't cost more than about say £400 just for a hull survey. Others can correct that figure it it's wrong.

 

But if it needs extensive replating/overplating be prepared to walk away!