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Closing Lock Gates


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9 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

If Aqualine get enough complaints about him then hopefully they will stop using him.

 

 

Yes, this is the point. Whether the boat mover works directly for Aqualine or is contracted by them, the thing to do is complain to the company. 

 

If the guy is moving a widebeam single handed through lots of locks then I have some sympathy, opening and closing all 4 gates at every lock as well as steering is hard work but I do it and close gates behind me. I did the entire length of the K&A single handed.

 

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The OP was (as I read it) travelling in the same direction.

 

I wonder if they offered to assist? Or despatched a crew member to do so?

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4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

They sort of do this on the Nene in flood, except the bottom gates are a guillotine. I'm sure at least one boat has been through a set in this condition. If it survived the ride is another matter!

if the floods are high enough and the gates aren't already open, you can skip the "open both gates" bit when going straight through :D

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

The OP was (as I read it) travelling in the same direction.

 

I wonder if they offered to assist? Or despatched a crew member to do so?

If they're having to close all the gates after him, which is what they're complaining about, then they already are assisting him. What they're not happy with is the arrogance in that he just expects everyone to do so. Maybe if he'd asked "would you mind as it'll be quicker than me doing it all the time" rather than "you've got to do it because I'm commercial so I'm not going to", things might have been different.

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7 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If they're having to close all the gates after him, which is what they're complaining about, then they already are assisting him. What they're not happy with is the arrogance in that he just expects everyone to do so. Maybe if he'd asked "would you mind as it'll be quicker than me doing it all the time" rather than "you've got to do it because I'm commercial so I'm not going to", things might have been different.

 

True. But what I was thinking was making a 'bit of a thing' by pointedly making an offer of help.

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On 14/05/2022 at 07:56, Captain Pegg said:

 

 

In respect of @Grassman's comment above are you sure the notice was to leave the gates open rather than to leave the lock empty? In any case I think most of the locks which such notices are further south than lock 72.

It was definitely leave the gates open. I remember so because of the hassle of having to close them each time before filling the lock. I can't remember exactly where because it was a few years ago but but it was quite well south on the GU, and I'm pretty sure it was south of Tring. The notices didn't look temporary ones so I presume this had been the procedure for some time.

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33 minutes ago, Grassman said:

. I can't remember exactly where because it was a few years ago but but it was quite well south on the GU

There were several between Cowroast and Hemel, Lock 59 is still leave empty and has been since BW made the bottom gates too tall, followed shortly after by the lock wall leaking onto the adjacent land. Neither of which has been fixed in the last 21 years. BW did open up the Weir above so that the outflow of the sewage farm can drain directly into the River Bullborne to keep the canal level down in times of overflow.

Edited by Loddon
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15 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

They sort of do this on the Nene in flood, except the bottom gates are a guillotine. I'm sure at least one boat has been through a set in this condition. If it survived the ride is another matter!

 

It is true fact, it was back in the late 1990's, the late owner come down the Nene from the GU through the locks that had been ‘reversed’ while heading for the Middle Level. Back then all the guillotine gates were manual, he just wound the gate up and went through. At the time he did think it was a bit odd that the upper gates had been chained backed on some locks. The only damage other than paintwork was one window. The boat was moored on the coal yard moorings next to the railway bridge in March until a few years ago.

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I would always close lock  gates  when leaving a lock .

But  leaving the gates open could be convenient if  the lock was then set in favour of the next boat to arrive.  The next boat to arrive may not be in sight so its not possible to know whether leaving the gates open or closed will be courteous to the next boat to arrive.

 

What are the reasons for closing gates ?

If penning down and the bottom gates are closed  the lock will tend to fill. A full lock is  safer than an empty lock in case a person falls in. Also a full lock reduces the rate of  creep due to earth pressure on the lock walls. So the custom of closing lock gates is nothing to do with courtesy to other boaters really. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MartynG said:

So the custom of closing lock gates is nothing to do with courtesy to other boaters really. 

 

 

It's not a custom, it's instruction from CRT.

 

The custom back in cargo carrying days was to leave them open, AIUI.

 

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4 hours ago, MartynG said:

I would always close lock  gates  when leaving a lock .

But  leaving the gates open could be convenient if  the lock was then set in favour of the next boat to arrive.  The next boat to arrive may not be in sight so its not possible to know whether leaving the gates open or closed will be courteous to the next boat to arrive.

 

What are the reasons for closing gates ?

If penning down and the bottom gates are closed  the lock will tend to fill. A full lock is  safer than an empty lock in case a person falls in. Also a full lock reduces the rate of  creep due to earth pressure on the lock walls. So the custom of closing lock gates is nothing to do with courtesy to other boaters really. 

 

 

 


It’s because both sets of gates form a barrier against loss of water. If all gates are closed more water is preserved.

 

That’s why there is a bit of a difference of opinion on the southern GU which is a canal but largely fed by rivers hence the water supply issues aren’t as paramount.

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4 hours ago, MartynG said:

I would always close lock  gates  when leaving a lock .

Do that on the River Nene going downstream and you will soon become really unpopular.

Going upstream you not only have to close the gates but have to lift the guillotine fully as well.

Most locks have to be left empty with the guillotine raised otherwise the river level goes to pot.

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3 hours ago, MtB said:

It's not a custom, it's instruction from CRT.

There's no mention of this in the "GENERAL CANAL BYE-LAWS: Operation of Locks", so it's not the law.

 

Closing the bottom gates on an empty lock saves no water. For maximum leakage be sure to lave a lock full with the top gate(s) floating.

 

The recommendation is "after use", not "after each use" or "after every use", so not needeed on a busy lock is in constant use throughout the day.

Edited by Martin Nicholas
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3 minutes ago, Martin Nicholas said:

There's no mention of this in the "GENERAL CANAL BYE-LAWS: Operation of Locks", so it's not the law.

 

Closing the bottom gates on an empty lock saves no water. For maximum leakage be sure to lave a lock full with the top gate(s) floating.

 

 

Unless it's a lock where the overflow goes over the top ground paddles in which case closing the bottom gates could mean that the next boat coming down doesn't have to fill a totally empty lock.

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23 minutes ago, Martin Nicholas said:

There's no mention of this in the "GENERAL CANAL BYE-LAWS: Operation of Locks", so it's not the law.

Has anybody said it is?

 

But boaters are requested to close gates on leaving a lock. For example from the Boater's Handbook:

"Close the gates and lower the 
paddles before you move on, unless 
a boat coming from the opposite 
direction wants to use the lock."

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1 hour ago, Martin Nicholas said:

I note that no boat is allowed to be a dwelling without the permission of the Board. I think we can safely assume the byelaws are largely irrelevant.

Closing lock gates as a commonly accepted rule is sensible when the vast majority of boat users don't know what they're doing. Otherwise you're going to have a lot of drained pounds and wasted water.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

It's not a custom, it's instruction from CRT.

 

 I can't find I reference to it from a search on the C&RT website.

Do you have a link to where this instruction  is currently published by C&RT ?

 

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10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 I can't find I reference to it from a search on the C&RT website.

Do you have a link to where this instruction  is currently published by C&RT ?

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/a-guide-to-boating/saving-water-when-youre-boating, last bit states

 

and please, please, please double check that gates or paddles have not been left open when you’ve finished.

 

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4 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:


It’s because both sets of gates form a barrier against loss of water. If all gates are closed more water is preserved.

 

That’s why there is a bit of a difference of opinion on the southern GU which is a canal but largely fed by rivers hence the water supply issues aren’t as paramount.

Preserving water would be a good reason in relevant cases . 

So closing lock gates has  some potential benefits but has nothing to do with courtesy to other boaters .

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45 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 I can't find I reference to it from a search on the C&RT website.

Do you have a link to where this instruction  is currently published by C&RT ?

 

Boater's Handbook as I pointed out a couple of posts before yours.

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26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Preserving water would be a good reason in relevant cases . 

So closing lock gates has  some potential benefits but has nothing to do with courtesy to other boaters .


It was a direct answer to your question as per the view of the navigation authority as others have confirmed.

 

I don’t know who mentioned courtesy but it isn’t the principal reason. Albeit ensuring following boaters don’t encounter an empty pound is courteous.

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On 14/05/2022 at 19:44, Loddon said:

AIUI  its only doable going upstream in a shorter boat.

I think the guillotine is dropped once the boat is in the chamber.

I may be wrong on this 

@Keeping Up will have more information

We've been trapped by reversed locks on the Nene and Ouse several times but the only 2 relevant things I can think of from my own experiences on the Nene were (1) going upstream when it was in flood so far over the top gates that getting into the lock was quite a challenge, and there was no need for top paddles because the lock had filled before I had finished winding down the lower guillotine and (2) going downstream through Ditchford lock which has a radial bottom gate when an EA rep opened all the top paddles fully behind us and said "Just open the lower gate all the way up and you'll still be able to get under it ok"; he was right but we really shot out of the lock when I untied the rope (we had to use the rope to hold usback while we opened the gate).

 

On most rivers, of course, including those from a canal to a river, the rule is to leave gates open behind you. On the GU, for years after the introduction of the rule to close all gates behind you, there was an exception that it was normal to leave the top gates open behind you between London and Berkhamstead - ie the section which was designated as a broad canal, unlike from there northwards which is still officially a narrow canal.

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30 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

We've been trapped by reversed locks on the Nene and Ouse several times but the only 2 relevant things I can think of from my own experiences on the Nene were (1) going upstream when it was in flood so far over the top gates that getting into the lock was quite a challenge, and there was no need for top paddles because the lock had filled before I had finished winding down the lower guillotine and (2) going downstream through Ditchford lock which has a radial bottom gate when an EA rep opened all the top paddles fully behind us and said "Just open the lower gate all the way up and you'll still be able to get under it ok"; he was right but we really shot out of the lock when I untied the rope (we had to use the rope to hold usback while we opened the gate).

 

On most rivers, of course, including those from a canal to a river, the rule is to leave gates open behind you. On the GU, for years after the introduction of the rule to close all gates behind you, there was an exception that it was normal to leave the top gates open behind you between London and Berkhamstead - ie the section which was designated as a broad canal, unlike from there northwards which is still officially a narrow canal.

The last time I saw a Nene lock reversed the headroom under the fully raised guillotine was about 2 feet, so (even with strong ropes!) this would have been a very dangerous manuever!   I had a similar experience as you at Ditchford, that was when the weir alongside was being repaired (after a narrowboat sank) and so most of the flow had to go through the lock.

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