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National Lottery Fund NBTA Mental Health Support


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20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Except that document makes clear that the definition of 'traveller' given is only for the purposes of that advice. So it is not necessarily very helpful in any other context.

 

Rather a pointless post - I made it abundently clear that it was in that context only, however, similar definitions are applied to travellers in other contexts, with, maybe some tweaking - ie not specifically relating travellers to school distances and availability of school buses that this document does.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Rather a pointless post - I made it abundently clear that it was in that context only, however, similar definitions are applied to travellers in other contexts, with, maybe some tweaking - ie not specifically relating travellers to school distances and availability of school buses that this document does.

 

@Alan de Enfield I don't think you'll get NBTA members or supporters to agree that them using the term "Traveller" is wrong, no matter how much the facts (and laws) suggest otherwise... 😉

Edited by IanD
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On 11/05/2022 at 23:15, The Happy Nomad said:

 

The issue seemed to be that it was the NBTA that got the money to help with boaters mental health issues rather than boaters mental health issues per sae (?sp). At least that is how I read it.

 

When we were boating regularly we met some very lonely and very sad individuals with issues. Some were obviously rooted in excessive alcohol and possibly drug consumption.

 

There is a clear need to somehow help and support these folks.

 

 

I think that you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The main grouse, having read through the thread, is the involvement of NBTA rather than anything else. Mental Health Services have been underfunded for decades (probably dating back to selling off the Psychiatric Hospitals and replacing them with 'Don't Care in the Community') so anything that brings some resources into what is essentially a failing side of the NHS has to be a good thing in my view. Due to the level of underfunding to date, I don't suppose that a couple of quid from the National Lottery is going to make a significant difference to the problem, but any small contribution helps.

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39 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Are you suggesting that the majority of liveaboards generally live on benefits?  I would have thought that those who move the least, particularly in and around London, do so because many of them are employed and need to stay reasonably close to their place of work.

 

 

 

No. The sentence referred to New Age Travellers. It really would be nice if people read what I wrote, rather than apparently deliberately misreading it to start an argument. Though I suppose I ought to know better by now.

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22 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

No. The sentence referred to New Age Travellers. It really would be nice if people read what I wrote, rather than apparently deliberately misreading it to start an argument. Though I suppose I ought to know better by now.

You said the New Age Travellers lived off benefits and then said that boat dwellers have hitched themselves to the same term. My point is that the current lot of boat dwellers in London who don't move much (whether NBTA members/supporters or not) are on the whole employed, more conventional in their social values, and have very little in common with the New Age lot.

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9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You said the New Age Travellers lived off benefits and then said that boat dwellers have hitched themselves to the same term. My point is that the current lot of boat dwellers in London who don't move much (whether NBTA members/supporters or not) are on the whole employed, more conventional in their social values, and have very little in common with the New Age lot.

But they're not Travellers... 😉

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

So boaters who want to stay moored in one place or area to be near their (fixed) place of work (or school) -- which seems to be the case every time the NBTA hit the headlines because CART are trying to make their non-CCing CMing members move on -- are by definition not travellers?

 

In which case, surely the NBTA is mis-named?

But be careful that you do not miss the statement that the quoted definition is only for the stated purpose - which does not seem to include CaRT mooring restrictions.

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think that you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The main grouse, having read through the thread, is the involvement of NBTA rather than anything else. Mental Health Services have been underfunded for decades (probably dating back to selling off the Psychiatric Hospitals and replacing them with 'Don't Care in the Community') so anything that brings some resources into what is essentially a failing side of the NHS has to be a good thing in my view. Due to the level of underfunding to date, I don't suppose that a couple of quid from the National Lottery is going to make a significant difference to the problem, but any small contribution helps.

I think you will find that the National Lottery fund other organisations . . . in fact, the application process is very strenuous and many seemingly worthy cases get turned down. In any event, they cannot meet the total demand, which is probably infinite.

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

But be careful that you do not miss the statement that the quoted definition is only for the stated purpose - which does not seem to include CaRT mooring restrictions.

I think you will find that the National Lottery fund other organisations . . . in fact, the application process is very strenuous and many seemingly worthy cases get turned down. In any event, they cannot meet the total demand, which is probably infinite.

I don't think that the demand for mental health provision is infinite, it is just massively under-resourced and has been for decades. There is always the talk of 'parity of esteem' between physical and mental health, but it just never seems to happen. There is the implication in some of the posts that the mentally ill are just 'swinging the lead' and not really ill, and yet this never really happens with physical illness. You never get anyone saying,"Go on then show us your cancer if you reckon you've got it" if someone says they have cancer their word is usually taken. For the mentally ill the reaction is either "You are just being stupid" (bulimia, anorexia and other self harming), or equally unhelpfully "Just pull yourself together" for many other forms of mental illness (depression usually).

 

Some individual have helped to break the narrative, Tyson Fury for one, but there still seems the mentality persisting in some quarters that someone who claims to be suffering from mental illness is just 'weak'.

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3 hours ago, IanD said:

But they're not Travellers... 😉

gtf you’re arguing semantics

How do you know?

How do you know someone else’s intention?

What is it you know?

Just what is your special knowledge about people living on boats who travel?

I don’t pass any judgements about you, so why do you feel the need to judge?

 

Personally I prefer the word itinerant.

I am an itinerant. 
I move from place to place, this I know.

I look for, and usually find work, this I know.

I live on a boat, this I know.

Therefore I am an itinerant boat dweller.

I support the NBTA because they support and help itinerants living on boats.

Makes simple sense to me.

But I can’t speak for others and I don’t understand how you can.

 

So what is it that makes you exceptional and all knowing?


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Goliath said:

So what is it that makes you exceptional and all knowing?

 

But surely you know by now that @IanD is the fountain of all knowledge and knows absolutely everything about everything there is to know?

 

Did you not get the memo?

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1 hour ago, Goliath said:

gtf you’re arguing semantics

How do you know?

How do you know someone else’s intention?

What is it you know?

Just what is your special knowledge about people living on boats who travel?

I don’t pass any judgements about you, so why do you feel the need to judge?

 

Personally I prefer the word itinerant.

I am an itinerant. 
I move from place to place, this I know.

I look for, and usually find work, this I know.

I live on a boat, this I know.

Therefore I am an itinerant boat dweller.

I support the NBTA because they support and help itinerants living on boats.

Makes simple sense to me.

But I can’t speak for others and I don’t understand how you can.

 

So what is it that makes you exceptional and all knowing?

 

 

You -- and others -- may well be itinerant boat dwellers, or bargees, or many other things. 

 

But not Travellers, regardless of the word in the name of the group you support. Because this is a word with a specific meaning, it doesn't just mean anyone who moves around a bit sometimes.

 

That's the legal position. If you don't like it, I suggest you ask the government to redefine the meaning of the word to suit you.

 

It's not just semantics, as Arthur said you're trying to use a term attached to a persecuted ethnic group to gain sympathy by association for boaters who you think are being unfairly persecuted,  for example by CART trying to enforce the CCing and mooring rules that everyone is supposed to follow.

 

I'm not judging, those are the facts. If you want to argue with them then I suggest you provide properly reasoned arguments, not ad hominem attacks.

Edited by IanD
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

You -- and others -- may well be itinerant boat dwellers, or barges, or many other things. 

 

But not Travellers, regardless of the word in the name of the group you support.

 

That's the legal position. If you don't like it, I suggest you ask the government to redefine the meaning of the word to suit you.

 

It's not just semantics, as Arthur said you're trying to use a term attached to a persecuted ethnic group to gain sympathy by association.

 

I'm not judging, those are the facts. If you want to argue with them then provide proper reasoning, not ad hominem attacks.

No. 
It is you who makes the ad hominem attacks.

 

Why are you persistent in defining others?

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Just now, Goliath said:

No. 
It is you who makes the ad hominem attacks.

 

Why are you persistent in defining others?

Go and look up "ad hominem", and then read your last post.

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6 hours ago, IanD said:

All of which rather suggests that "Traveller" is not an appropriate term to use in the title of the NBTA, doesn't it?

 

If they were mostly Boaters who Travelled, a National Association would have my whole hearted support.

 

As they aren't, they don't.  Simple, innit.

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8 hours ago, David Mack said:

You said the New Age Travellers lived off benefits and then said that boat dwellers have hitched themselves to the same term. My point is that the current lot of boat dwellers in London who don't move much (whether NBTA members/supporters or not) are on the whole employed, more conventional in their social values, and have very little in common with the New Age lot.

I said NAT mostly, not all, lived on benefits  and that's why they were regarded as freeloaders. Never did I say that boat dwellers did the same, as very obviously you are correct in saying most have jobs etc and that's why some find moving difficult. You are confusing two entirely separate points. What I am saying is that while neither group are ethnic Travellers, both the NAT and the NBTA have hijacked the term to use its legal ramifications for their own separate, and very different, purposes - the one to justify their movement, the other quite possibly the opposite in some cases.

As Goliath has said, the word "itinerant" is a much better fit and the NBTA support for those in that situation is valid and important, including their ability to concentrate a targeted mental health practice on a narrow field of clients of whose circumstances they would be more aware than a land based charity.

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How can anyone know whether a 'boat dweller' is a 'freeloader' without meeting them?

 

Perhaps if we spent less time persecuting live aboard boaters on line and spent time getting to know them on the cut, we might all be in a better place mentally.

 

It's a nice day, good excuse for a walk.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

How can anyone know whether a 'boat dweller' is a 'freeloader' without meeting them?

 

Perhaps if we spent less time persecuting live aboard boaters on line and spent time getting to know them on the cut, we might all be in a better place mentally.

 

It's a nice day, good excuse for a walk.

 

 

It’s not about liveaboard boaters in general..of which I’ve been one for many years….it’s about a certain type of person who feels rules aren’t for them and they should be able to do as they please to the detriment of others. 

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4 minutes ago, frangar said:

It’s not about liveaboard boaters in general..of which I’ve been one for many years….it’s about a certain type of person who feels rules aren’t for them and they should be able to do as they please to the detriment of others. 

It's also about a certain type of person who judges others without meeting them to their detriment.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

It's also about a certain type of person who judges others without meeting them to their detriment.

 

 

I’ve met plenty…mainly over the last 10 years of 30 years living aboard. 

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10 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

Good. So how many of them would you say were 'freeloaders'? Have you spoken to members of the NBTA?

A run into london will show how many are quite happy to weld themselves to the towpath rather than pay for a mooring….and one only has to be on the London Boaters fb page for 10 mins to get an idea of what they desire…and if that’s how they want to portray themselves to the public then they are as far removed from myself as a liveaboard as is possible….and I’ve seen how they conduct themselves at public CRT meetings….

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