Jump to content

Electric bikes


Featured Posts

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Escooters are currently illegal so the Police have done little to nothing about the problem already! Secondly the NHS are opposed to the Escooters, as the accident rate is doubling yearly from them, the accidents are often serious and requiring ambulances to cart them to hospitals! I hope that the NHS wins this one or better still no insurance no ambulance and treatment might sort it.

Could it be that accident rates are doubling every year because the number of escooters are doubling every year?

 

How do escooter accident rates (per escooter) compare with bikes, ebikes and motorbikes -- the same, higher, lower? Same question for the seriousness of the accident, because bike and ebike and motorbike riders often need ambulances to cart them to hospitals too.

 

Unless they're higher -- which they might well be, but only actual numbers will show this -- then this is all biased panicmongering as featured in the Daily Wail... 😉

 

Like I said -- but you ignored, as usual -- I see far more of these than you do, most are sensible, some are idiots -- just like any other form of transport ever invented...

Edited by IanD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Escooters are currently illegal so the Police have done little to nothing about the problem already! Secondly the NHS are opposed to the Escooters, as the accident rate is doubling yearly from them, the accidents are often serious and requiring ambulances to cart them to hospitals! I hope that the NHS wins this one or better still no insurance no ambulance and treatment might sort it.

 

I disagree that the police have done nothing about illegal escooters. In 2020 and 2021 thousands of riders on scooters (many of which were identical in power and speed to the legal scooters were stopped and fined hundreds of pounds, and given 6 license points. 

Escooters were largely wiped from the central London streets for a short while, although the job of the police is not made easier by there now being legal hire scooters around. 

I'm not sure where you derive your statement that the NHS are opposed to escooters. Could you explain that in some more detail please?

To be honest it seems a pretty grand claim, and I'm not aware that the national managing body of the NHS has a policy view regarding personal transport. 

Are you saying the NHS is actively lobbying the government to prevent legalisation of scooters?

 

It does seem to be true that escooter riders are more vulnerable, and in a collision they seem to be injured more often than motorists or bikers, but I havent seen any evidence that scooter riders cause disproportionate numbers of injuries to other road users or to pedestrians - unlike car drivers involved in collisions. 

Ultimately, the government seem to have taken the view that if people want to take the chance of riding a scooter on the public road, whether to commute, or for recreation, then they will be allowed to do so. Perhaps the huge carbon emission benefits have helped to persuade them, who knows? 

 

Saving the planet is something that we should take seriously enough that it's worth making some compromises, even if it involves things that annoy us, like gangs of  youths on scooters occasionally breaking rules that they would probably have broken on ebikes anyway. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fast Forward 50 years....

 

E-scooters are the only legal method of personal transport and Global Warming has almost begun to slow down too....

 

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Could it be that accident rates are doubling every year because the number of escooters are doubling every year?

 

How do escooter accident rates (per escooter) compare with bikes, ebikes and motorbikes -- the same, higher, lower? Same question for the seriousness of the accident, because bike and ebike and motorbike riders often need ambulances to cart them to hospitals too.

 

Unless they're higher -- which they might well be, but only actual numbers will show this -- then this is all biased panicmongering as featured in the Daily Wail... 😉

 

Like I said -- but you ignored, as usual -- I see far more of these than you do, most are sensible, some are idiots -- just like any other form of transport ever invented...

 

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

I disagree that the police have done nothing about illegal escooters. In 2020 and 2021 thousands of riders on scooters (many of which were identical in power and speed to the legal scooters were stopped and fined hundreds of pounds, and given 6 license points. 

Escooters were largely wiped from the central London streets for a short while, although the job of the police is not made easier by there now being legal hire scooters around. 

I'm not sure where you derive your statement that the NHS are opposed to escooters. Could you explain that in some more detail please?

To be honest it seems a pretty grand claim, and I'm not aware that the national managing body of the NHS has a policy view regarding personal transport. 

Are you saying the NHS is actively lobbying the government to prevent legalisation of scooters?

 

It does seem to be true that escooter riders are more vulnerable, and in a collision they seem to be injured more often than motorists or bikers, but I havent seen any evidence that scooter riders cause disproportionate numbers of injuries to other road users or to pedestrians - unlike car drivers involved in collisions. 

Ultimately, the government seem to have taken the view that if people want to take the chance of riding a scooter on the public road, whether to commute, or for recreation, then they will be allowed to do so. Perhaps the huge carbon emission benefits have helped to persuade them, who knows? 

 

Saving the planet is something that we should take seriously enough that it's worth making some compromises, even if it involves things that annoy us, like gangs of  youths on scooters occasionally breaking rules that they would probably have broken on ebikes anyway. 

 

 

Wait and see what happens, accident figures doubling people getting ripped off by gangs on souped up scooters old people being killed by idiots on them! You can see it happen as plain as day and that's without houses being burned down when the cheap crap from China is being charged. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

Wait and see what happens, accident figures doubling people getting ripped off by gangs on souped up scooters old people being killed by idiots on them! You can see it happen as plain as day and that's without houses being burned down when the cheap crap from China is being charged. 

 

So far not a single OAP has been killed by an escooter. Not one- despite millions of scooter journeys now having been taken in the last few years. 

In 2021 there were 3 scooter fatalities, compared to 1400 resulting from other road vehicles. And there were under 1000 scooter injuries, compared to around 120,000 from other vehicles.

From what I can see, the evidence simply does not exist to support your scaremongering.

I think the problem is that when making your predictions about the outcome of legalising scooters, you are not filtering out the facts and evidence from the media scare stories, which are designed to keep you fearful and angry, and which arise only from a fear and loathing of chavs - and I'm no fan of chavs myself by the way.

 

As for souped-up scooters, well the truth is they are a problem already- those young thugs dont care about the law or regulations, either now or in the future.

Also, dealing with them is a law enforcement issue, surely? 

Think of it this way - do we stop people using cars because some criminals use cars to commit crimes?

Hundreds, possibly thousands of drug dealers and robbers up and down the land use cars to help commit their crimes every single day. Not to mention the hundreds of speeding car drivers who are openly reckless on the roads, and a huge danger to themselves and others.

Should we stop people having the benefit of private transport simply because some criminals use them for bad purposes? Or because a minority of lunatics drive dangerously?

Why then should we apply that logic to scooter users? There are thousands of people who previously used their scooters to commute to work and stay off of crowded buses during the first lockdown, helping to keep our shops open and our key services running. Should a woman on a low wage be denied the right to travel home from her shift safely at midnight, rather than walk between bus stops, and take her chance with drunks on public transport?  

 

Who are you to deny these people the freedom of the personal transport they prefer, because a few dozen chavs will run wild on scooters? 

The lives of our youth and our citizens are already miserable enough after the last few years, and they are set get even worse over the next decade. 

Will you take away their right to have some fun, to get out and about socially, or to commute to work and arrive clean and fresh? 

And thats not even mentioning the benefits to the climate. 

One one hand you have the risk of a dozen pensioners being bundled over by thugs on scooters in Hull, and on the other you have a huge climate benefit, and the freedom given by affordable personal transport for millions of people.  

How can you even begin to think there is any kind of equivalence between these issues? Let alone come down on the side of banning scooters? That is the mentality of a miserable prison warden, not a citizen of a supposedly free country. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
  • Greenie 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

So far not a single OAP has been killed by an escooter. Not one- despite millions of scooter journeys now having been taken in the last few years. 

In 2021 there were 3 scooter fatalities, compared to 1400 resulting from other road vehicles. And there were under 1000 scooter injuries, compared to around 120,000 from other vehicles.

From what I can see, the evidence simply does not exist to support your scaremongering.

I think the problem is that when making your predictions about the outcome of legalising scooters, you are not filtering out the facts and evidence from the media scare stories, which are designed to keep you fearful and angry, and which arise only from a fear and loathing of chavs - and I'm no fan of chavs myself by the way.

 

As for souped-up scooters, well the truth is they are a problem already- those young thugs dont care about the law or regulations, either now or in the future.

Also, dealing with them is a law enforcement issue, surely? 

Think of it this way - do we stop people using cars because some criminals use cars to commit crimes?

Hundreds, possibly thousands of drug dealers and robbers up and down the land use cars to help commit their crimes every single day. Not to mention the hundreds of speeding car drivers who are openly reckless on the roads, and a huge danger to themselves and others.

Should we stop people having the benefit of private transport simply because some criminals use them for bad purposes? Or because a minority of lunatics drive dangerously?

Why then should we apply that logic to scooter users? There are thousands of people who previously used their scooters to commute to work and stay off of crowded buses during the first lockdown, helping to keep our shops open and our key services running. Should a woman on a low wage be denied the right to travel home from her shift safely at midnight, rather than walk between bus stops, and take her chance with drunks on public transport?  

 

Who are you to deny these people the freedom of the personal transport they prefer, because a few dozen chavs will run wild on scooters? 

The lives of our youth and our citizens are already miserable enough after the last few years, and they are set get even worse over the next decade. 

Will you take away their right to have some fun, to get out and about socially, or to commute to work and arrive clean and fresh? 

And thats not even mentioning the benefits to the climate. 

One one hand you have the risk of a dozen pensioners being bundled over by thugs on scooters in Hull, and on the other you have a huge climate benefit, and the freedom given by affordable personal transport for millions of people.  

How can you even begin to think there is any kind of equivalence between these issues? Let alone come down on the side of banning scooters? That is the mentality of a miserable prison warden, not a citizen of a supposedly free country. 

 

 

All these accidents and deaths occurred when Escooters were illegally being used, the hire Escooters hardly exist outside of London. When the numbers are scaled up then you will see why I don't like them. They provide little or no income for this country as we don't make them, I already see the cheap ones from China abandoned when broken or stolen. You Tony think they will be a benefit I think different, let's wait and see shall we? As for the NHS why would they put out the figures for these injuries caused by Escooters? To let people know how dangerous they are is the answer. If we had dedicated cycling lanes things might be different, but on the whole we don't so these things will be screaming down pavements at speed across roads, just like they are already doing except 1000 times more!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, peterboat said:

All these accidents and deaths occurred when Escooters were illegally being used, the hire Escooters hardly exist outside of London. When the numbers are scaled up then you will see why I don't like them. They provide little or no income for this country as we don't make them, I already see the cheap ones from China abandoned when broken or stolen. You Tony think they will be a benefit I think different, let's wait and see shall we? As for the NHS why would they put out the figures for these injuries caused by Escooters? To let people know how dangerous they are is the answer. If we had dedicated cycling lanes things might be different, but on the whole we don't so these things will be screaming down pavements at speed across roads, just like they are already doing except 1000 times more!

 

Firstly, my apologies for comparing your reasoning process to that of a miserable prison warden- that was uncalled for. 

But I should add a note on the hire scheme usage- there are currently 57 towns running scooter hire schemes, so there is now an awful lot of experience in a lot of different places. 

 

Clearly we are not going to change our minds about these vehicles, so you're right that there's no point in further discussion about it. 

 

I think the time to judge the outcome will be a year after legalisation, when we will have some meaningful stats about the accident/injury rates. 

As a heads up, I don't see my mind being changed by a Daily Mail report on the day after legalisation, telling of a pensioner being mugged in Manchester by two chavs on scooters. We will need real data, not scare stories.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Firstly, my apologies for comparing your reasoning process to that of a miserable prison warden- that was uncalled for. 

But I should add a note on the hire scheme usage- there are currently 57 towns running scooter hire schemes, so there is now an awful lot of experience in a lot of different places. 

 

Clearly we are not going to change our minds about these vehicles, so you're right that there's no point in further discussion about it. 

 

I think the time to judge the outcome will be a year after legalisation, when we will have some meaningful stats about the accident/injury rates. 

As a heads up, I don't see my mind being changed by a Daily Mail report on the day after legalisation, telling of a pensioner being mugged in Manchester by two chavs on scooters. We will need real data, not scare stories.

 

The NHS statistics were not good Tony and they are under massive pressure already why introduce even more problems?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I think the time to judge the outcome will be a year after legalisation, when we will have some meaningful stats about the accident/injury rates. 

As a heads up, I don't see my mind being changed by a Daily Mail report on the day after legalisation, telling of a pensioner being mugged in Manchester by two chavs on scooters. We will need real data, not scare stories.

 

IIRC Peter is a Daily Wail reader... 😉

 

 

mediabias_LI.jpg

Edited by IanD
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The NHS statistics were not good Tony and they are under massive pressure already why introduce even more problems?

 

I could argue on the same logic that motorbikes should be banned, because riding one carries a higher risk than cars of suffering an injury. And that cars should be fitted with 20mph speed limiters in towns, which would massively reduce the injury burden on the NHS.

We can't just ban all risky activities because the NHS has been underfunded for the last decade and is struggling to cope. So why single out scooters? How is that fair? Surely fairness matters to you?

 

On the issue of scooter users committing crimes: police numbers on the streets have been cut back significantly over the last decade, such that there is a common perception that they are struggling to manage street crime.  

Given that we have limited police numbers, is the solution to that problem simply to ban an entire class of vehicle that we think young criminals might possibly use occasionally? What would that really achieve? Surely the real answer is more police on the streets, so that we dont only protect pensioners from an imaginary threat, but we actually protect all citizens from 100% real and active threats?

 

I dont see how thugs will suddenly turn antisocial just because they have scooters? These people are already out there now, causing problems on the streets for everyone- whether on bikes or on foot.

Surely the real answer is to tackle them, and dont just ban the scooters that they might possibly be tempted to use when committing crimes, and thereby spoil things for millions of other users. 

 

The day is going to come within a decade or two that non-essential cars will not be allowed anywhere near city centres, because of pollution and climate damage. In 30 years ICE cars may be banned altogether for private use. Even electric cars may come under scrutiny, as long as we need to burn fossil fuels to generate their electricity. 

Smaller, lighter vehicles requiring less energy are the future of transport for the great majority of us. 

It makes sense to start that transition sooner rather than later. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horses should be banned. The large number of people that fall off and sustain serious life changing injuries is alarming.

The air ambulances are picking them up regularly and the silly idiots get back on them only to fall off again.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Horses should be banned. The large number of people that fall off and sustain serious life changing injuries is alarming.

The air ambulances are picking them up regularly and the silly idiots get back on them only to fall off again.

I believe that narrowboats have killed more people than e-scooters have killed pensioners, so surely according to Peter they should be banned too?

 

That would certainly make him happy because wideboats like his wouldn't be affected... 😉

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I believe that narrowboats have killed more people than e-scooters have killed pensioners, so surely according to Peter they should be banned too?

 

That would certainly make him happy because wideboats like his wouldn't be affected... 😉

 

Ah but electrocution has killed more people than narrow boats, so perhaps we should ban electricity ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Ah but electrocution has killed more people than narrow boats, so perhaps we should ban electricity ...

"Falls on and from stairs and steps" kill more than electrocution, so better ban them first... 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Horses should be banned. The large number of people that fall off and sustain serious life changing injuries is alarming.

The air ambulances are picking them up regularly and the silly idiots get back on them only to fall off again.

 

Probably because the anti-seat belt lobby got them excluded when the seat belt law came in.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

No MOTs either. And the exhaust emissions are terrrrrible.

But the emissions are green, if you put them on your garden... 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Ah but electrocution has killed more people than narrow boats, so perhaps we should ban electricity ...

Sometimes intentionally 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Sometimes intentionally 

Maybe those figures would be the other way round if Texas had narrowboats -- unlike lethal injection and the electric chair, I don't think they've been flagged as a cruel method of executing people... 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand that the road accident rate in Victorian London was much reduced in the 20th century after internal combustion vehicles had largely replaced horses. It wasn't just the removal of the bolters, biters, and  kickers,  there was less  grain around to support the rat population.  

Edited by Ronaldo47
typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to "move electric" there have been 882 accidents involving escooters in a year.  3 were fatalities (all scooter users), 20% were "single vehicle" accidents, 931 people were injured 732 of those were scooter users, 253 of the injuries were serious 37 of which were pedestrians.

 

Considering the number of escooters compared to cars these seem high to me.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

According to "move electric" there have been 882 accidents involving escooters in a year.  3 were fatalities (all scooter users), 20% were "single vehicle" accidents, 931 people were injured 732 of those were scooter users, 253 of the injuries were serious 37 of which were pedestrians.

 

Considering the number of escooters compared to cars these seem high to me.

 

And whilst we argue over a few hundred scooter crashes, the polar icecaps continue to melt, thousands of animal species face extinction, our temperatures continue to rise and break new records almost every year, and the planet moves ever closer to the point of no return. There is a much, much bigger picture to consider here. 

 

But yes, I think there can be little doubt that in the case of an accident, e-scooters are far more risky to their drivers than cars are. How could it be otherwise, when the rider has no protection?

But hundreds of thousands of commuters and leisure users cant afford to buy and run a car, and yet they dont want to get to their destination covered in sweat as they might on a bike in warm weather. 

 

Those users- who might well increase into the millions over the next few years- are prepared to take the increased risk of injury compared to a car, because it is their only practical and affordable method of personal transportation.

Many of them might not particularly like taking the risks involved, but will probably feel that they dont have have much choice (like the example of the nurse I mentioned above, who felt safer riding home on a scooter after a late shift than she did using the bus - the nurse who used a scooter with a maximum speed of 12 mph, and was fined £1000 and given 6 penalty points for trying to get home safely).

Or perhaps the scooter riders will accept the risks because they'd rather travel in the open air than on an overcrowded bus or tube, because our public transport system is very poor quality. Who knows. 

 

But if commuters are willing to ride to work at 15mph on an e-scooter for economic reasons, or for personal freedom of transport, is it right to stop them doing that? 

Those 3 deaths and 900 injuries arose from an estimated 1 million scooter journeys taken every month in 2021- thats 12 million scooter journeys over the year. And that's only the legal journeys taken on hire scooters, it doesnt include the many hundreds of thousands of illegal scooter journeys.  

And only 3 deaths. 

So maybe it's not that bad?

Or maybe we should just continue to prolong this interesting discussion about how many injured scooter riders can stand on the head of a pin, and let the planet continue to die for another 5 years before we make any changes? 

 

Edited by Tony1
  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

And whilst we argue over a few hundred scooter crashes, the polar icecaps continue to melt, thousands of animal species face extinction, our temperatures continue to rise and break new records almost every year, and the planet moves ever closer to the point of no return. There is a much, much bigger picture to consider here. 

 

But yes, I think there can be little doubt that in the case of an accident, e-scooters are far more risky to their drivers than cars are. How could it be otherwise, when the rider has no protection?

But hundreds of thousands of commuters and leisure users cant afford to buy and run a car, and yet they dont want to get to their destination covered in sweat as they might on a bike in warm weather. 

Nobody mentioned arguing over anything, well apart from you< I merely supplied some facts to help the discussion along.  However I suspect that there are ways of using electric propulsion which aren't as dangerous as escooters.

 

For example I would like to see the comparison in environmental damage between say escooters and electric public transport (which is basically what trams were when I was a kid).

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Those users- who might well increase into the millions over the next few years- are prepared to take the increased risk of injury compared to a car, because it is their only practical and affordable method of personal transportation.

Many of them might not particularly like taking the risks involved, but will probably feel that they dont have have much choice (like the example of the nurse I mentioned above, who felt safer riding home on a scooter after a late shift than she did using the bus

Two thoughts.

One the reintroduction of "conductors" and full use of various technologies could make late night public transport safe.

 

Two there is a difference between feeling safer and being safer, do you have any figures to show public transport is more dangerous than the use of an escooter, sometimes in the dark, on a road (which I understand is the only way they can/will be legal to use.

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

- the nurse who used a scooter with a maximum speed of 12 mph, and was fined £1000 and given 6 penalty points for trying to get home safely).

No they weren't they were given the penalty points for breaking the law.  To say it was for trying to get home safely implies she was penalised for something which isn't against the law, which is completely untrue.

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Or perhaps the scooter riders will accept the risks because they'd rather travel in the open air than on an overcrowded bus or tube, because our public transport system is very poor quality. Who knows. 

True the rider probably would, however over 1 in 3 of the serious injuries wasn't the rider but an innocent person.

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

But if commuters are willing to ride to work on an e-scooter for economic reasons, or for personal freedom of transport, is it right to stop them doing that? 

Is it right to subject members of the public to one third of the serious injuries caused by e-scooter drivers?  It is swings and round abouts.

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

Those 3 deaths and 900 injuries arose from an estimated 1 million scooter journeys taken every month in 2021- thats 12 million scooter journeys over the year.

First question can you give me a link for this please.  Second point "estimated" not a good basis for basing things on IMO.   By the way I hope you aren't linking my figures to the estimated trips as no mention is made in my reference of number of trips.

 

How do the injuries/fatalities compare to the many millions of trips made by other forms of transport including e-bikes?

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

And that's only the legal journeys taken on hire scooters, it doesnt include the many hundreds of thousands of illegal scooter journeys.  

And only 3 deaths. 

See above.   Also you can't include illegal journey as it has been already pointed out many/most accidents when used illegally will not be recorded because they are being used illegally.

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

So maybe it's not that bad?

My be not but to me your figures etc are spun to ensure it seems less serious than it may be.

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Or maybe we should just continue to prolong this interesting discussion about how many injured scooter riders can stand on the head of a pin, and let the planet continue to die for another 5 years before we make any changes? 

 

You are being overly emotional about e-scooters, nobody, other than you, has suggested there shouldn't be environmentally sound methods of getting around.  The discussion is about whether e-scooters are the way forward or some other environmentally sound method.

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

Nobody mentioned arguing over anything, well apart from you< I merely supplied some facts to help the discussion along.  However I suspect that there are ways of using electric propulsion which aren't as dangerous as escooters.

 

For example I would like to see the comparison in environmental damage between say escooters and electric public transport (which is basically what trams were when I was a kid).

Two thoughts.

One the reintroduction of "conductors" and full use of various technologies could make late night public transport safe.

 

Two there is a difference between feeling safer and being safer, do you have any figures to show public transport is more dangerous than the use of an escooter, sometimes in the dark, on a road (which I understand is the only way they can/will be legal to use.

No they weren't they were given the penalty points for breaking the law.  To say it was for trying to get home safely implies she was penalised for something which isn't against the law, which is completely untrue.

True the rider probably would, however over 1 in 3 of the serious injuries wasn't the rider but an innocent person.

Is it right to subject members of the public to one third of the serious injuries caused by e-scooter drivers?  It is swings and round abouts.

First question can you give me a link for this please.  Second point "estimated" not a good basis for basing things on IMO.   By the way I hope you aren't linking my figures to the estimated trips as no mention is made in my reference of number of trips.

 

How do the injuries/fatalities compare to the many millions of trips made by other forms of transport including e-bikes?

See above.   Also you can't include illegal journey as it has been already pointed out many/most accidents when used illegally will not be recorded because they are being used illegally.

My be not but to me your figures etc are spun to ensure it seems less serious than it may be.

You are being overly emotional about e-scooters, nobody, other than you, has suggested there shouldn't be environmentally sound methods of getting around.  The discussion is about whether e-scooters are the way forward or some other environmentally sound method.

 

 

Sorry mate, but I've been having this discussion with Peter all day, and I really can't be arsed to go over the ground again.

In my view, the case is absolutely clear and complete unarguable. 

At this point you either agree, or you don't. 

You dont, 

Fair play to you.

Enjoy your evening. The debating society is closed for today. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.