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Well, I've never seen Vactan do that before


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2 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

That sounds like it dried before it had a chance to convert the rust, then the dew last night wet it enough to complete it's job but it also ran down your paint because you weren't standing there to prevent it. It was sunny and breezy yesterday?

 

Sunny (not hot) and not particularly breezy. It sounds like what you describe is probably what happened, though.   

3 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Then most likely something has deteriorated during storage.

 

Possibly. 

Edited by BlueStringPudding
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The maker says it should be used within 12 months of purchase.

 

https://www.performance-chemicals.net/vactan#:~:text=Vactan should be used within,conditions out of direct sunlight.

1 minute ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Sunny (not hot) and not particularly breezy. It sounds like what you describe is probably exactly what happened, though.   

 

Possibly. 

 

 

See my link above.

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1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

The maker says it should be used within 12 months of purchase.

 

https://www.performance-chemicals.net/vactan#:~:text=Vactan should be used within,conditions out of direct sunlight.

 

 

See my link above.

 

Lol. Been using that bottle for YEARS! 😃😃😃 Had no idea Vactan has an eat-by date. Well, I've learned that the (very) hard way. 

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1 minute ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Lol. Been using that bottle for YEARS! 😃😃😃 Had no idea Vactan has an eat-by date. Well, I've learned that the (very) hard way. 

 

They are likely just covering themselves against complaints tbh.

 

"Ah you bought this on 8th May 2021, soz n all that"

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29 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Lol. Been using that bottle for YEARS! 😃😃😃 Had no idea Vactan has an eat-by date. Well, I've learned that the (very) hard way. 

I’ve used well out of date Vactan and it’s been ok.

It goes such a long way that a litre will last for lots of jobs and usually ends up stored and forgotten with the paints til I need it again.

🤷‍♀️Not had a problem. 

I didn’t know it had a used by date either. 
 

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Personally I've never liked vactan. I think it's a rust treatment designed for amateur painters which is fine, I'm one myself. But I've had poor results with rust coming back so decided it was no longer for me. 

 

The best treatment for rust is to remove it properly. If it's not possible to get rid of all the rust in pits, etc, then in my opinion the next best treatment is Fertan. Others will disagree of course. 

 

There's nothing wrong with using tannic acid to convert rust, but as the OP has discovered to their cost, the vinyl polymer matrix used in vactan is dubious. It's meant to act like a primer yet it doesn't seem to resist moisture very well and it's relatively short shelf life may point to an inate instability. Again, all in my amateur opinion. Fertan has a 10 year shelf life so it's that vactan polymer that's the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by blackrose
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13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Personally I've never liked vactan. I think it's a rust treatment designed for amateur painters which is fine, I'm one myself. But I've had poor results with rust coming back so decided it was no longer for me. 

 

The best treatment for rust is to remove it properly. If it's not possible to get rid of all the rust in pits, etc, then in my opinion the next best treatment is Fertan. Others will disagree of course. 

 

There's nothing wrong with using tannic acid to convert rust, but as the OP has discovered to their cost, the vinyl polymer matrix used in vactan is dubious. It's meant to act like a primer yet it doesn't seem to resist moisture very well and it's relatively short shelf life may point to an inmate instability. Again, in my amateur opinion. Fertan has a 10 year shelf life so it's that vactan polymer that's the problem.

 

 

 

That is very similar to my experience of Vactan. In my view it just didn't do what it said on the bottle so, like you,  I gave using it.

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

Again, all in my amateur opinion. Fertan has a 10 year shelf life so it's that vactan polymer that's the problem.

 

Doesn't Fertan have to be washed off? If so, using it on extensive roof rust will mean that washing it off causes the acid to run down the paintwork and windows too, doesn't it? Admittedly without the vinyl type coating, but would that acid not also damage the paintwork or window frames? Or is there a knack with Fertan to prevent that from happening? 

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2 hours ago, Goliath said:

I’ve used well out of date Vactan and it’s been ok.

It goes such a long way that a litre will last for lots of jobs and usually ends up stored and forgotten with the paints til I need it again.

🤷‍♀️Not had a problem. 

I didn’t know it had a used by date either. 
 

I thought I had read on the bottle that it had an indefinite  life. Will check tomorrow.

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13 minutes ago, Slim said:

I thought I had read on the bottle that it had an indefinite  life. Will check tomorrow.

 

 

Pretty sure my own Vactan bottle says use within 6 months. 

 

And I DID use some of it within 6 months, so that's ok then....

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BlueStringPudding said:

Doesn't Fertan have to be washed off? If so, using it on extensive roof rust will mean that washing it off causes the acid to run down the paintwork and windows too, doesn't it? Admittedly without the vinyl type coating, but would that acid not also damage the paintwork or window frames? Or is there a knack with Fertan to prevent that from happening? 

 

Fertan is washed or just brushed off but doesn't leave permanent streaks on your paintwork in my experience. Best to do a test first to check.

 

59 minutes ago, Slim said:

I thought I had read on the bottle that it had an indefinite  life. Will check tomorrow.

 

No definitely not. I've spoken to Paco Systems or whatever they are called on the phone and they told me 12 - 18 months maximum.

Edited by blackrose
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53 minutes ago, Slim said:

I thought I had read on the bottle that it had an indefinite  life. Will check tomorrow.

 

I posted a link earlier which doesnt concur with that.

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With regard trying to restore the damaged paint, please get hold of some Farecla G3 and, if at all possible an electric orbital mop (because I know how much elbow grease it can take) 

 

The G3 is a very fine abrasive that will not leave scratches and will not take too much paint off but will take off the oxidised layer so you can see how deep the staining goes. 

 

On glass and frames very fine grade wire wool is a good thing to have in store to clean them up. 

 

I am so sorry this has happened. It must be gutting for you 

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For the rest you could try wide masking tape just at the edge where you want to treat  holding polythene under it so the polythene covers the side of your boat? It would be unlikely to seep under the tape and if it seeped over the polythene would protect the side? 

 

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Polythene-Dust-Sheet-Roll---2-x-50m/p/154962?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2-mT9aXU9wIVFWHmCh39EQoAEAQYBSABEgKTfvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

I can understand reluctance to do what you did even with fresh vactran. I’m not sure it was the age of vactran, what’s supposed to happen if it’s old (other than make you buy a new amount because it’s old😂
Owatrol for rust might be another thought. 

Edited by Stroudwater1
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Fertan is washed or just brushed off but doesn't leave permanent streaks on your paintwork in my experience.  Whilst we didn't read the instructions when we applied Fertan to a friends roof, the dew overnight caused the same damage described above and we spent hours with polishers removing the streaks. They still show now and I don't think can ever be removed properly. Just my experience. I always used Vactan and have never had the issues described.

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I've also seen this side effect though, thankfully, not so extensively. I still believe Vactan to be a good rust solution but as with all of them. most rust has to be removed mechanically first, otherwise it bubbles up again. I suspect this issue might be caused by excess Vactan not curing. When I've seen it do this, either too much has been applied or excess is on non metal, i.e. surrounding paint. If it doesn't have the chemical reaction and go black, any moisture causes unconverted Vactan to run - so usually only noticed on vertical surfaces. Apply sparingly and check the conversion has worked - in a matter of minutes, then wipe off any excess. This might help avoid the problem.

 

My paintwork is so weathered, I used fine wet and dry rather than Farecla G3, since there was little shine to it anyway. For more extensive areas like this, maybe an alternative approach would be go over the whole lot with diluted Vactan to give an even vinyl covering? 🤔

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1 hour ago, Old Son said:

Fertan is washed or just brushed off but doesn't leave permanent streaks on your paintwork in my experience.  Whilst we didn't read the instructions when we applied Fertan to a friends roof, the dew overnight caused the same damage described above and we spent hours with polishers removing the streaks. They still show now and I don't think can ever be removed properly. Just my experience. I always used Vactan and have never had the issues described.

 

Different users different experiences.... 

I guess what's not in doubt from the OP's and your anecdotes is that tannic acid can stain paintwork whether it's in the form of a vinyl polymer matrix or not so take care.

 

As I said earlier, I just don't like the vinyl polymer in vactan. It seems to be somewhat moisture sensitive and water soluble, so I don't think it's a very good metal primer which is how it's being used. 

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I suspect the blue colour is iron tannate rather than dissolved blue paint. This can be fairly easily dissolved in various acids - oxalic is the least likely to damage anything else but hydrochloric as found in some household bathroom cleaners will do the same job more quickly but requires more precautions.

 

The problem is if the iron tannate is bound within the vinyl matrix, in which case there is nothing that will sensibly remove it chemically without major paint damage, so mechanically abrading it back is about the only option. Very careful hand sanding with fine wet alumina paper from a car finishers is probably the best available option - 320 grit is about right as a start, stop if/when the surface is cleared and then move on up the grits (600 and 1200) followed by a car polish is probably about as good as it will get. Bear in mind that you will need to remove the permeable oxidised paint layer on the surface as part of this as the Vactan will have soaked through it.

 

It is unlikely that the paint is permeable enough for any of the Vactan to have soaked in particularly deeply before it cured out, but if for some reason it has reacted together then overpainting will unfortunately become the only option. On the (very slight) plus side, 320 grit is a really good preparation for this.

 

Alec

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