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New build financial logistics.....


Andyaero

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Hello all, after a bit of help if all you experienced heads could spare a minute.

So, it's been a long held plan between me and the Mrs that on my retirement we will buy a boat and become continuous cruisers. We've done a few.......three....holidays on the canals, so not totally unaware of what the future holds although these have been April - September, so I accept we've maybe not seen life at its bleakest. 

Not spoken to builders yet as we are around 12 months off the stage of commissioning, was planning on doing that at Crick, our third visit. So I know it's someway off, but I like to plan and prepare, no surprises.

So I've mentioned new builds and I know some of you will say, no don't do that, get a used one and spend the first one seeing what you want to change. Well this is exactly my wife's opinion, but I'm a Yorkshireman and I know what I like and I like what I know. My wife also does like the idea of designing from scratch so I'm not steamrollering her into my plan. But, I really can't be @rsed doing it twice and then there's the logistics of selling it at the right time to move when a new builds ready....just seems a faff, the pros out weigh the cons to me. 

So, preamble done, onto the point of the post........as regards payment.....

Is it usual to have one builder do the shell, then deliver to the fitter or do some/most do the whole job?

Would I pay for that shell upfront or in stages and likewise for the fitout, is it paid up front, in stages or on completion?

I accept lead times seem to vary, from immediate, if there are cancellations to up to 2 years, anyone got examples of now if you've recently ordered a new build?

I'm based in Leicestershire and current thoughts are to get the boat built, base it somewhere on canal/marina/Trent between Newark-Derby and work pt for a year before fully retiring. Planning 57'-60' reverse layout, semi trad probably.

Any thoughts on my waffle?

Cheers.....

Edited by Andyaero
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Based on my recent new build, the suppliers fall into 2 groups, some build the shell and fit out (boat builder), others are just fitters and they source the shell for you and fit this out. I have not come across any that fit out a shell that you have sourced, I am not saying that they do not exist, I just did not look for this supply arrangement.

 

In terms of payments, the boat fitter I dealt with took a nominal £1,500 deposit when we signed the contract then stage payments in arrears.

The first after the shell was delivered.

The second when after spray foam insulation, first fix electrics and plumbing installed and lining out where complete.

The third when the engine and galley were installed.

The fourth after the boat was completed and lifted into the water.

The final one was post snagging.

The contract also stated that once paid, I owned the boat to that stage.

 

Financially, I had no issues apart from COVID lockdowns extending the build time and delaying the time between boat completion and launch because we were in lockdown during that time, but it did add an extra amount of concern at the time.

 

Beware builders who ask for large up front payments, there are many horror stories of builders in financial straits using up front payments on one boat to pay for their purchases on the previous boat, not as they should. When these go bankrupt you have nothing and have lost your money. It is often said that if you are having a new build and can not afford to loose the money then it could be very risky. Choose your builder well and do as much due diligence as you can.

 

ps.

We had boated for ~40 years before the new build on parents boats, hire boats and our own so we knew exactly what we liked based on experience.

Edited by PeterF
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Buy second hand first at half the price (then later sell for much the same as you paid), find out what works for you living aboard continuously, which will not be the same as what three short holiday hires lead you to think what you want.

 

As to the new build, if you commission a shell from one source and the fitout from another, you legally become the boatbuilder and have all the legal obligations of the Recreational Craft Regulations. Commission one to build you a boat, with him subcontracting half the work to the other, and then compliance is his problem.

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Keep a landbase you will need it one day. Have fun . We went down the buy second hand first We sold it for the same as we bought it for as we decided we wanted an extra 10 ft. We also fitted it out ourselves.

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5 hours ago, Andyaero said:

Would I pay for that shell upfront or in stages and likewise for the fitout, is it paid up front, in stages or on completion?

 

It doesn't matter what you want the payments to be, they will be what your chosen builder dictates.

 

If it is that important to you then make the choice of builder based primarily on the payment schedule and secondly on the type / quality of boat he produces.

 

Ask your builder the questions you are asking here - every builder will have their own method of doing business and this type of cottage industry means that there are unlikely to be two builders with the same T&Cs

 

Buy a 2nd hand boat 1st !!

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Your talking a long time in the future with regards to costing and a final price. You say 12 month before you commission, then you could be waiting 2 year for completion. The way steel and material prices are going up, builders can’t give an accurate price for next month never mind 2 year.

  There could be an influx of 1-2 year old boats on the market in a year or so, when foreign travel gets back up and running and you may get a bargain and save a long wait.

  Have a look at New and Used at Mercia Marina, may be good to have a chat with them and tell them what your after and they will keep an eye out, also a good place to be based.

 

Edited by PD1964
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Despite your protestations, 3 trips on a hire boat and your wife's desire to design....... you have not a clue about what you will want in 2 years time when your new, unsuitable boat is ready.

 

Live a aboard with a semitrad? Why? You need all the cabin length you can get. They are also very easy for someone to break into without being seen.

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37 minutes ago, frahkn said:

In the interest of balance I will suggest that Mercia is not a good choice of base.

 It has everything you need in terms of facilities, also Barton Turns. I would rather be moored in a Marina that has good facilities ie cafe/pub, fuel, WiFi for my first year when occasionally using the boat, so I can do things on site and off when visiting the boat. There’s also Sawley & Castle Marina. Better then staying in a run down Marina with no facilities, as he says it will only be for a year before CCing.

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1 hour ago, frahkn said:

In the interest of balance I will suggest that Mercia is not a good choice of base.

 

Sorry but I have to disagree.

 

Yes its very large but we found it a great place moor. Very well run and lots of facilities, very easy to access by car and boat.

 

Its central location on the system allows various cruising options.

 

Of course if one prefers a smaller marina it wont be for you. Not cheap either but as far as I recall it wasnt different price wise to similar setups with a similar level of facilities.

 

We really enjoyed our time there, we only moved to have our boat based closer to our home in the North East.

 

 

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Firstly it depends on budget. As a Yotkdhireman you will look at depreciation on a new boat and  think 'How ***** much'?!? As a Yokshire man (Or a tight git like me) you will wonder about doing it yourself. Both those options are expensive and / or time consuming. I would suggest looking for a very good quality boat from a very good builder, the sort of thing most of us are jealous of and who pretend not to be impressed by. It will be a pleasure to own, you can feel really smug, it will always sell at a  premium  and although it might take a while to find it could well be quicker than getting a new boat. A bit of refitting is not really such a big deal if you have to. It will quite likely work out less expensive than a new boat too.

Edited by Bee
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On the issue of buying used I would just add if you do you might just find the boat you buy may in fact suit you perfectly and you might find you dont need to buy a new boat at all.

 

And if you dont like the paint job or its fading use a small portion of the money thus saved to re paint your used boat.

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When you eventually start talking to builders etc in more detail, you will find that some of them will be more than happy to build the boat that THEY want, rather than the one that you want. The problem is, they will explain their reasons by saying 'in their experience .... this will work, this won't'. Your problem will be sorting the wheat from the chaff - it might be worth getting a (good) surveyor on side to help your decisions. This then leads into which surveyor? Try and talk to customers of your short-listed builders to see if they got what they expected, any problems etc. would they do it that way again..... Its always cheaper to use somebody else's experience instead of paying for it yourself!

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The OP seems quite determined to get a new build boat to his specification, and seems to be aware of the cost premium involved in doing this.

 

But I would agree that three boat holidays is not much to have collected knowledge of good ideas about what you want -- and also things that niggle -- which is the biggest reason to get a new build, a lot more research and experience is really needed, and it might be better to buy a decent secondhand boat and CC with it for a year or two first. Then when he eventually does got a boat built -- assuming this ever happens! -- it's much more likely that he'll be satisfied with the end result.

 

Most builders/boat fitters work on multiple stage payments, sometimes in arrears, sometimes in advance, sometimes a bit of both depending on the business. There's usually a deposit (e.g. £1000 or so) when you book a place in the queue, then a first payment (e.g. 10%) either just before build starts or a bigger one (e.g. 20%) after first stage completion (e.g. hull build), the key is to make sure that you don't have a massive upfront payment in case things go wrong.

 

A lot of well-regarded builders today have full order books, time from first deposit to delivery is somewhere around 2 years. Bigger volume builders may have shorter delays, but tend to be less well thought of and may also be more reluctant to do any custom things that the OP wants (which is one reason to get a new build) -- some may even have "stock" boats, but this is the worst of all worlds because you pay the premium for a new boat but someone else has already made all the decisions, so a good secondhand boat makes much more sense.

 

And then there are the big decisions to be made about engines, bow/stern type, toilets, heating, electrics and so on, which the OP may be blissfully unaware of... 😉

 

If you want something rather different to the norm (e.g. a hybrid boat) then new build is really the only option, but you need to have deep pockets and be pretty confident about making the right choices... 🙂

Edited by IanD
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3 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Sorry but I have to disagree.

 

Yes its very large but we found it a great place moor. Very well run and lots of facilities, very easy to access by car and boat.

 

Its central location on the system allows various cruising options.

 

Of course if one prefers a smaller marina it wont be for you. Not cheap either but as far as I recall it wasnt different price wise to similar setups with a similar level of facilities.

 

We really enjoyed our time there, we only moved to have our boat based closer to our home in the North East.

 

 

I'm in a similar position to yourself in so far as I used to moor a Mercia and no longer do so.

 

At first I enjoyed the novelty of being part of the "decorative element" of a shopping experience but that paled. I am not very at all 'social', I have no interest in the business of others and resent their interest in mine.

 

Eventually, the proximity of Willington station was not enough to balance the rest.

 

Others will have different tastes - each to his own.

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The OP would only be there for a year from what I can gather, then retiring and CCing. So a year might be enough for him before CCing, or he might like the place and social aspect and decide to be based there. Plans change.

  

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1 hour ago, frahkn said:

I'm in a similar position to yourself in so far as I used to moor a Mercia and no longer do so.

 

At first I enjoyed the novelty of being part of the "decorative element" of a shopping experience but that paled. I am not very at all 'social', I have no interest in the business of others and resent their interest in mine.

 

Eventually, the proximity of Willington station was not enough to balance the rest.

 

Others will have different tastes - each to his own.

 

I dont recognise much if anything of what you describe, especially the bit about ones own business.

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20 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I dont recognise much if anything of what you describe, especially the bit about ones own business.

Well, in reverse order:-

 

Willington station is less than 15 mins walk away.

 

My pontoon was a a hundred or so yards walk from 'shore' and I almost never made the whole trip without being accosted by some individual or other wanting to talk, usually about inconsequential drivel.

 

We were on the 70' moorings opposite the 'boardwalk' and the boats functioned as decorative background for shoppers and visitors.

 

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On 09/05/2022 at 12:08, Mike Tee said:

When you eventually start talking to builders etc in more detail, you will find that some of them will be more than happy to build the boat that THEY want, rather than the one that you want. The problem is, they will explain their reasons by saying 'in their experience .... this will work, this won't'. 

Trouble is, some will build what the customer wants 

 

Edited by ditchcrawler
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18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Trouble is, some will build what the customer wants 

 

 

A good boatbuilder will listen to what you want, and if it makes sense will agree to do it, and if it doesn't will explain why not. I came into my build with a lot of new (or new-ish) ideas, some of which made it into the final design and some of which -- for good reasons, some of which I was unaware of, not having built lots of boats -- didn't. But these were mainly technical "how-to-make-this-better" ideas, not styling.

 

If it's just a matter of taste rather than practicality some builders will take the "it's your money, it's your gold-embossed wallpaper" view, others will refuse to do something they consider hideous because they don't want their name putting on something ugly. That's a business decision, and I'd guess the builders with full order books and high reputations are more likely to say "no" than those who need the business more.

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

A good boatbuilder will listen to what you want, and if it makes sense will agree to do it, and if it doesn't will explain why not. I came into my build with a lot of new (or new-ish) ideas, some of which made it into the final design and some of which -- for good reasons, some of which I was unaware of, not having built lots of boats -- didn't. But these were mainly technical "how-to-make-this-better" ideas, not styling.

 

If it's just a matter of taste rather than practicality some builders will take the "it's your money, it's your gold-embossed wallpaper" view, others will refuse to do something they consider hideous because they don't want their name putting on something ugly. That's a business decision, and I'd guess the builders with full order books and high reputations are more likely to say "no" than those who need the business more.

Well they are still in business Pendle-narrowboats.com - About us

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On 08/05/2022 at 22:38, PD1964 said:

Your talking a long time in the future with regards to costing and a final price. You say 12 month before you commission, then you could be waiting 2 year for completion. The way steel and material prices are going up, builders can’t give an accurate price for next month never mind 2 year.

  There could be an influx of 1-2 year old boats on the market in a year or so, when foreign travel gets back up and running and you may get a bargain and save a long wait.

  Have a look at New and Used at Mercia Marina, may be good to have a chat with them and tell them what your after and they will keep an eye out, also a good place to be based.

 

Good point about lots of relatively new boats becoming available as people and the world gets back to "normal". Tho looking at Mercia's site there's still no decline in price.....£140k + for a used boat, done very nice examples tho.

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On 09/05/2022 at 10:37, Tracy D'arth said:

Despite your protestations, 3 trips on a hire boat and your wife's desire to design....... you have not a clue about what you will want in 2 years time when your new, unsuitable boat is ready.

 

Live a aboard with a semitrad? Why? You need all the cabin length you can get. They are also very easy for someone to break into without being seen.

Oh go on  then, I'll bite.......

With respect.....doesn't that usually mean quite the opposite tho......u don't know what or who I know, so that's quite a condescending opinionated post, but hey everyone's got them....opinions.

So in your opinion does a live aboard have to be trad? Here's one to make u spin even more.....we originally thought cruiser stern, outside living space and all that, but we've tempered that to semi trad now as u can still have the space, but also the increased internal space. Definitely want some outside space so wouldn't go as far as trad, just our opinion, but also that of a number of liveaboards we've witnessed. But not yours.

Cheers anyway

On 09/05/2022 at 11:51, The Happy Nomad said:

 

On the issue of buying used I would just add if you do you might just find the boat you buy may in fact suit you perfectly and you might find you dont need to buy a new boat at all.

 

And if you dont like the paint job or its fading use a small portion of the money thus saved to re paint your used boat.

Very good point that, thanks!

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On 09/05/2022 at 13:00, IanD said:

The OP seems quite determined to get a new build boat to his specification, and seems to be aware of the cost premium involved in doing this.

 

But I would agree that three boat holidays is not much to have collected knowledge of good ideas about what you want -- and also things that niggle -- which is the biggest reason to get a new build, a lot more research and experience is really needed, and it might be better to buy a decent secondhand boat and CC with it for a year or two first. Then when he eventually does got a boat built -- assuming this ever happens! -- it's much more likely that he'll be satisfied with the end result.

 

Most builders/boat fitters work on multiple stage payments, sometimes in arrears, sometimes in advance, sometimes a bit of both depending on the business. There's usually a deposit (e.g. £1000 or so) when you book a place in the queue, then a first payment (e.g. 10%) either just before build starts or a bigger one (e.g. 20%) after first stage completion (e.g. hull build), the key is to make sure that you don't have a massive upfront payment in case things go wrong.

 

A lot of well-regarded builders today have full order books, time from first deposit to delivery is somewhere around 2 years. Bigger volume builders may have shorter delays, but tend to be less well thought of and may also be more reluctant to do any custom things that the OP wants (which is one reason to get a new build) -- some may even have "stock" boats, but this is the worst of all worlds because you pay the premium for a new boat but someone else has already made all the decisions, so a good secondhand boat makes much more sense.

 

And then there are the big decisions to be made about engines, bow/stern type, toilets, heating, electrics and so on, which the OP may be blissfully unaware of... 😉

 

If you want something rather different to the norm (e.g. a hybrid boat) then new build is really the only option, but you need to have deep pockets and be pretty confident about making the right choices... 🙂

OK, maybe I'm not 100% going new build, ever open minded, that's me 😀.

Yes, we're aware of the big decisions, workin on it 🙂. Don't think we want anything particularly outrageous so not beyond the realms of finding something used that suits!

If new I'd def go hybrid atleast, used it would obvs depend on availability, budget and if everything else balanced with the boat, wouldn't be a deal breaker.

Edited by Andyaero
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