Buying a hundred-year-old boat

[EllaGlssp]

How old is too old?

 

I have been on the hunt for a boat for several months now, and have found what looks like the perfect one to continuously cruise around London. It is a converted Dutch Sailing Barge, built in 1914 by an unknown manufacturer in Holland. It was surveyed in 2020 and the hull was overplated as a result. Speaking to the brokerage, it is allegedly in good condition other than that (but I would obviously get an independent survey done).

 

My question is: is there anything inherently wrong with buying a boat this old if a surveyor confirms it all looks good. Is it higher risk? Does the value go down faster? What are some of the other dangers?

 

Thanks in advance!

[zenataomm]

Personally, I'd do it.

However you probably wouldn't want to do half the things I do.

For those interested in this thread but with no particular input, this link may assist.

popcorn wholesale - Google Search

[IanM]

1 hour ago, EllaGlssp said:

How old is too old?

 

I have been on the hunt for a boat for several months now, and have found what looks like the perfect one to continuously cruise around London. It is a converted Dutch Sailing Barge, built in 1914 by an unknown manufacturer in Holland. It was surveyed in 2020 and the hull was overplated as a result. Speaking to the brokerage, it is allegedly in good condition other than that (but I would obviously get an independent survey done).

 

My question is: is there anything inherently wrong with buying a boat this old if a surveyor confirms it all looks good. Is it higher risk? Does the value go down faster? What are some of the other dangers?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

First question, will it fit where you plan to cruise?

[Tam & Di]

Presumably it has a rivetted iron hull - nothing wrong with that, but it does require rather more expert attention than a modern welded steel one. I guess it is a tjalk or similar, with rounded chine, a fairly bluff bow like a Dutch clog and a large rudder hung on the stern post. Unless it has been motorised by someone who is expert in such things it could be rather a pig to steer, as in its sailing life the rudder would not generally have any balance forward of its pivot point, and it would not be making efficient use of the prop thrust. Also, unless it is well ballasted it will also be very subject to cross winds. You don't give its dimensions, but it is not the sort of vessel I would choose for cruising round London (but I'm not sure what is 😃) However there is nothing inherently wrong with it by reason of its age, with the above provisos of finding skilled people to work on the hull. The value might actually appreciate, as there is a finite (and steadily decreasing) number of such vessels and they can be sought after if you find the correct market.

 

Tam

Edited May 5, 2022 by Tam & Di

[EllaGlssp]

2 minutes ago, IanM said:

 

First question, will it fit where you plan to cruise?

It’s slightly wider than I was originally looking at (9’ 3”) but only 40 foot in length which is exactly what I was after. I’ll be cruising mainly in London so the widensss of the canals isn’t really an issue; it’s mainly fitting into small mooring spots because the canals are crowded

[EllaGlssp]

3 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Presumably it has a rivetted iron hull - nothing wrong with that, but it does require rather more expert attention than a modern welded steel one. I guess it is a tjalk or similar, with rounded chine, a fairly bluff bow like a Dutch clog and a large rudder hung on the stern post. Unless it has been motorised by someone who is expert in such things it could be rather a pig to steer, as in its sailing life the rudder would not generally have any balance forward of its pivot point, and it would not be making efficient use of the prop thrust. Also, unless it is well ballasted it will also be very subject to cross winds. You don't give its dimensions, but it is not the sort of vessel I would choose for cruising round London (but I'm not sure what is 😃) However there is nothing inherently wrong with it by reason of its age, with the above provisos of finding skilled people to work on the hull. The value might actually appreciate, as there is a finite numer of such vessels and they can be sought after if you find the correct market.

 

Tam

This is so informative, thanks! I’ve attached a pic- think you’ve absolutely nailed the type of boat it is. Doesn’t actually say hull material, only that it’s been overplated recently (2020). Length is 40 foot and beam is 9 foot 3. When I spoke to the seller on the phone earlier today he said exactly what you have about the rudder being too large for purpose, but said that is fairly easy and cheap to replace so I was planning on doing that. 

 

He didn’t mention cross wind issues, but I will be mainly driving her single-handedly so that’s definitely something to consider. But good to hear the age isn’t an inherent issue!

 

 

23 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Personally, I'd do it.

However you probably wouldn't want to do half the things I do.

For those interested in this thread but with no particular input, this link may assist.

popcorn wholesale - Google Search

Reassuring to hear!

 

The popcorn link made me chuckle

[MtB]

I'd suggest asking to take it out for a short trip if I were you. to get a feel for how controllable it is, especially at low speeds. 

 

Are there any photos of below the waterline? Is there a keel of any sort to keep it going straight or is it like a soap dish, totally rounded? 

[EllaGlssp]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

I'd suggest asking to take it out for a short trip if I were you. to get a feel for how controllable it is, especially at low speeds. 

 

Are there any photos of below the waterline? Is there a keel of any sort to keep it going straight or is it like a soap dish, totally rounded? 

 

Oh yeah was definitely planning on doing that! The prev owner was apparently moored up for ages without moving her so they are doing “engine work” at the moment which I will have to enquire more about…

 

No photos below the waterline annoyingly, though this is another good thing to ask when I view it next week. All it says about the hull is that it’s flat type and black in colour- v helpful hahahah.

 

Cheers

[Athy]

11 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

This is so informative, thanks! I’ve attached a pic- think you’ve absolutely nailed the type of boat it is. Doesn’t actually say hull material, only that it’s been overplated recently (2020). Length is 40 foot and beam is 9 foot 3. When I spoke to the seller on the phone earlier today he said exactly what you have about the rudder being too large for purpose, but said that is fairly easy and cheap to replace so I was planning on doing that. 

 

He didn’t mention cross wind issues, but I will be mainly driving her single-handedly so that’s definitely something to consider. But good to hear the age isn’t an inherent issue!

 

 

 

She's a bit of a charmer, I can see why you fell for her.

She reminds me of a cut-down version of one of those Oxford University college barges, I imagine her cruising genteelly along the Thames, or perhaps along the Backs in cambridge, rather than amongst the rough-and-tumble of inner London!

[Tam & Di]

You may have misunderstood what I said about the rudder. I wasn't saying it was too big, and from what I can see in the photo it is fairly standard for that style of vessel - reducing its size would only make it more difficult to steer. Rudders on a motor vessel generally have a certain amount of the blade forward of the pivot point. Without that, when the rudder is put over half of the propellor thrust is still propelling the boat forward rather than off at an angle to make the boat turn. That would describe the rudder here, which does not look to have been modified from when the craft was propelled by sail. However the ship does look quite tidy and the conversion is in a very Dutch idiom.

 

Tam

 

as a p.s. I would not expect it to have a keel. They are build as flat bottomed vessels with lee boards on each side for the stabilising effect - no longer required as it is motorised.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Tam & Di

[EllaGlssp]

2 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

You may have misunderstood what I said about the rudder. I wasn't saying it was too big, and from what I can see in the photo it is fairly standard for that style of vessel - reducing its size would only make it more difficult to steer. Rudders on a motor vessel generally have a certain amount of the blade forward of the pivot point. Without that, when the rudder is put over half of the propellor thrust is still propelling the boat forward rather than off at an angle to make the boat turn. That would describe the rudder here, which does not look to have been modified from when the craft was propelled by sail. However the ship does look quite tidy and the conversion is in a very Dutch idiom.

 

Tam

Oh right- the seller said something different then, and was referring to the size of the rudder. Would it be fairly easy to change the rudder pivot point or is that a bigger task?

 

Isn’t she gorgeous!

Edited May 5, 2022 by EllaGlssp

[Chagall]

On a purely knee jerk reaction and with no experience whatsoever about such a boat I'd still say ....

 

"how wonderfully exciting and go for it just for the hell and the thrill of it" but sensible people will advise 😀

 

Oh, they did already and Yes she is "gorgeous" 

 

Good luck and fair winds 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Chagall

[EllaGlssp]

8 minutes ago, Athy said:

She's a bit of a charmer, I can see why you fell for her.

She reminds me of a cut-down version of one of those Oxford University college barges, I imagine her cruising genteelly along the Thames, or perhaps along the Backs in cambridge, rather than amongst the rough-and-tumble of inner London!

Isn’t she lovely! Fell in love immediately. My sister is currently studying at Oxford so would have to take her for a visit…

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Chagall said:

On a purely knee jerk reaction and with no experience whatsoever about such a boat I'd still say ....

 

"how wonderfully exciting and go for it just for the hell and the thrill of it" but sensible people will advise 😀

 

Oh, they did already and Yes she is "gorgeous" 

 

Good luck and fair winds 

 

 

 

I do agree. 

 

Have done the same myself repeatedly and after buying, you just find ways to deal with problems as they arise. 

 

Might be worth getting a survey which may identify any big issues, but then surveys on 100 year old boats have a habit of missing big stuff in my personal experience. Just buy it and use it, and if you discover stuff you can't cope with, sell it and buy something different with the benefit of the years of boating experience you will by then have. 

 

 

 

P.S. Have to say though, she deserves to be used somewhere lovely like on the Thames or the K&A rather than in London! 

 

 

[Stilllearning]

Lovely looking boat: only one thought, about steering, and where the throttle/gear change control is. Looking at the photo, I can’t see the throttle, and how do you steer and adjust the throttle?

[EllaGlssp]

13 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Lovely looking boat: only one thought, about steering, and where the throttle/gear change control is. Looking at the photo, I can’t see the throttle, and how do you steer and adjust the throttle?

 There is a pic of one but it looks like it’s on the way in and not very near the tiller- not ideal! I wonder how easy it is to change that.

 

Also no solar panels which will be fun to install I’m sure!

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by EllaGlssp

[Stilllearning]

22 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

 There is a pic of one but it looks like it’s on the way in and not very near the tiller- not ideal! I wonder how easy it is to change that.

 

Also no solar panels which will be fun to install I’m sure!

 

 

With a bit of luck the tiller arm will be telescopic, like some narrowboats have.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

You may have misunderstood what I said about the rudder. I wasn't saying it was too big, and from what I can see in the photo it is fairly standard for that style of vessel - reducing its size would only make it more difficult to steer. Rudders on a motor vessel generally have a certain amount of the blade forward of the pivot point. Without that, when the rudder is put over half of the propellor thrust is still propelling the boat forward rather than off at an angle to make the boat turn. That would describe the rudder here, which does not look to have been modified from when the craft was propelled by sail. 

I know someone who was talked into having a smaller rudder by the boat yard as he only intended to use the boat on canals. he regretted it

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

You may have misunderstood what I said about the rudder. I wasn't saying it was too big, and from what I can see in the photo it is fairly standard for that style of vessel - reducing its size would only make it more difficult to steer. Rudders on a motor vessel generally have a certain amount of the blade forward of the pivot point. Without that, when the rudder is put over half of the propellor thrust is still propelling the boat forward rather than off at an angle to make the boat turn. That would describe the rudder here, which does not look to have been modified from when the craft was propelled by sail.

 

 

Here is a photo of a typical narrowboat rudder, showing the section of rudder ahead of the rudder stock that Tam & Di is writing about:

 

 

 

 

Sometimes called the balance blade, or the flight blade. 

[Tam & Di]

2 hours ago, EllaGlssp said:

Oh right- the seller said something different then, and was referring to the size of the rudder. Would it be fairly easy to change the rudder pivot point or is that a bigger task?

 

Isn’t she gorgeous!

 

It is not a simple job to modify the rudder, but I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here. First is the survey you are having - you need someone experienced in surveying craft of that type and age (send a private post if you want advice on that). Then there is the buying, assuming the survey was acceptable. Then there is the getting familiarised with everything, including an engine which you say is being worked on. Only then and after some experience of moving it can you think about the merits of doing anything about the rudder.

 

If it doesn't have an official mooring you will be pushed into the 'moving it' stage sooner than desirable of course, as you will have to move at least every 14 days. Do you have previous boating experience by the way?

 

Tam

[EllaGlssp]

7 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

It is not a simple job to modify the rudder, but I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here. First is the survey you are having - you need someone experienced in surveying craft of that type and age (send a private post if you want advice on that). Then there is the buying, assuming the survey was acceptable. Then there is the getting familiarised with everything, including an engine which you say is being worked on. Only then and after some experience of moving it can you think about the merits of doing anything about the rudder.

 

If it doesn't have an official mooring you will be pushed into the 'moving it' stage sooner than desirable of course, as you will have to move at least every 14 days. Do you have previous boating experience by the way?

 

Tam

I do have boating experience - I have been continuously cruising in London for about 6 months on a friend’s boat, but I don’t have experience buying a boat of my own. So this is all really really helpful.

 

I am going to go and view it on Saturday and will feed back what is found then - all going well will book a survey on it.

 

Thanks again

[MtB]

1 minute ago, EllaGlssp said:

I am going to go and view it on Saturday and will feed back what is found then - all going well will book a survey on it.

 

Thanks again

 

If at all possible I'd go before Saturday if I were you. If it's advertised publicly hoards of people will 'go at the weekend' to view it and it will quite likely sell if the price is anything short of gouging. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, EllaGlssp said:

My question is: is there anything inherently wrong with buying a boat this old if a surveyor confirms it all looks good. Is it higher risk? Does the value go down faster? What are some of the other dangers?

 

At £40,000 its is probably about 'right' in todays market.

 

The Mercedes engines were / are popular in Europe but are rarely found in the UK - spare parts may be a problem.

 

It looks very dated and the windows 'are not for me' (good job we are not all the same !)

 

 

The hull information :

 

@Tam & Di

 

'Gypsy' is a Westlander Tjalk design, built as a sailing barge and converted to a motor barge with live aboard accommodation.

Built to a recognised Dutch design, riveted and lap jointed iron shell plate on built-up riveted S-shaped transverse frames consisting of 1 1/2 " equal angle top and bottom with flat bar web plates at approx 320mm centres.

Ultrasonic thickness gauge measurements indicate a nominal 1/4" shell plate was used.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

Presumably it has a rivetted iron hull - nothing wrong with that, but it does require rather more expert attention than a modern welded steel one. 

 

Many riveted iron or steel hulls of that age have had plenty of replating and overplating done over the decades and will likely be fully welded by now.

 

For me it would mainly boil down to the survey. If you have areas of 4mm hull or less are you going to get the work done? You might have leverage to knock the price down a bit but getting it done correctly is a load of agg. Many people would walk away. 

 

Then you have to be sure that the previous overplating has been done to a decent standard and not botched. You need a good surveyor.

Edited May 5, 2022 by blackrose

[Dav and Pen]

I assume this boat was converted to a motor in Holland and would have been used there before coming to the uk. My friend has just sold one very similar with a Mercedes engine in France and that swam very nicely. The prop will probably have a plate above it to help direct the thrust onto the rudder. We brought a 100 year old barge and kept it for 18 years. The hull shape was similar to this only much bigger and it was pretty well completely overplated on the bottom as is quite normal once a barge has been converted. You should check the ballast as it was common to use poured concrete which some insurers aren’t to keen on.

The only draw back to the rounded bilges is the tendency to keep going sideways in sharp turns but you would soon get used to this and learn to counter it.

Good Luck

Edited May 5, 2022 by Dav and Pen
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