SLOW DOWN

[nicknorman]

45 minutes ago, manxmike said:

Given that I haven't been on the canals for over five years I think "constantly" is a bit ott. 

If you have never experienced boats going past at speed, causing your boat to rock then I can only wonder how you moor up. Boats travelling too fast, causing breaking wakes have been a fact of life since the canals were created. There were boats towed by galloping horses in the 18th century - they were known as packet boats and were equipped with cutters to sever the tow lines of slower boats that got in the way. I wonder if they caused other boats to rock and roll.

Long may you continue to live in a world of peace and tranquility. 

Yes constantly was  the wrong word. “Frequently” perhaps a better one.

 

our boat does occasionally rock a bit when boats go past, but “rocking” is what boats do. it’s not a catastrophe. Most of that rocking induced by the mooring lines because the forces at play is not really some ripples on the top of the water, it’s forward and aft movement of the large volume of water that the passing boat displaces. If you weren’t tied up, your boat would move one way and then the other one without much rocking. Tying the boat up makes it resist this motion by means of forces along the lines, and so it critically depends on the angle (in 3 dimensions) and attachment locations of these lines.

Obviously I can’t pass comment on the mooring arrangement of your boat, but I do see a majority of boats tied up in various ways so as to inevitably maximise the tipping /rocking potential of the pull on the lines created by passing boats

 

I’d agree that passing with breaking wash is unreasonable (as is cruising with breaking wash, of course) but I can’t recall seeing that within say the last decade. Maybe we are just lucky?

[Bee]

Its a problem mostly caused by shallow edges. If something goes past displacing up to maybe 20 tons of water then unless its going painfully slow - barely moving at all - it will push and pull at the water as it travels. No matter how you tie a boat the water will be drawn away from beneath it leading to those scraping sounds that we all know and then tipping a bit as it sits on the bottom, a bit of fore and aft movement follows.  Some people are not good at tying up boats and some people are not good at steering them either but if the edges (and the middle) were deeper it would make a big difference. Irs cheaper to tell people to slow down than dredge the canal though so in the meantime we'll just have to shout at each other and not CRT.

[Foggy66]

16 hours ago, tree monkey said:

It's the beginning of silly season on the Llan, most boats are sensible but I think that because there are so many boats there is the same percentage of idiots in general just more actual number of idiots plus because you are already primed to notice and you have a lower threshold you notice them more.

Plus by the time you get up to Chirk it's not uncommon for long convoys of boats to have built up as they are held up by Chirk aquaduct and the two tunnel, again this makes the idiots stand out because by the time the 15th boat has passed in a fairly short time it is easy to allow the grumps to take hold.

There's no avoiding it, moor properly travel early or late and try to chill because it is worth it or do it in the winter because it's quiet, it rarely freezes and quiet frankly the last few miles in a cold frosty morning is just stunning 

We always head up the Llangollen in the depths of winter. It’s wonderful. Can’t beat an early start on a crisp winters morning, back cabin stove keeping me warm and endless cups of tea. 

[Bugsworth Tippler]

Having spent a weekend moored up on the upper Macclesfield Canal with the boat sprung fore and aft, I have had no problems with passing boats, hire boats, day boats or privately owned. The only time the boat got really shaken was when a fast-moving kayak stormed past, clearly travelling a some multiple of 4mph. I wonder how this fits in with the idea of water displacement as the kayak was incredibly thin and rode high in the water? I ask the question but don't pretend to have an answer.

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, Bugsworth Tippler said:

Having spent a weekend moored up on the upper Macclesfield Canal with the boat sprung fore and aft, I have had no problems with passing boats, hire boats, day boats or privately owned. The only time the boat got really shaken was when a fast-moving kayak stormed past, clearly travelling a some multiple of 4mph. I wonder how this fits in with the idea of water displacement as the kayak was incredibly thin and rode high in the water? I ask the question but don't pretend to have an answer.

Yes it’s definitely the case that a tiny kayak which is only disturbing the top of the water, can have a remarkable effect on a moored boat. As you suggest, this is not displacement of a large volume of water as is the case with a narrowboat passing. I don’t think any method of tying up can resist this. However I would take issue with “really shaken”. The words I would have used would be “bobbed about a bit”. I suppose it depends on whether you think a moored boat should remain absolutely stationary, or not. And of course since it does remain absolutely stationary for much of the time, there is a big contrast when it does actually “bob about a bit”, and it is that contrast that one notices.

[doratheexplorer]

16 hours ago, tree monkey said:

My favourite was chirk tunnel about 10 boats all trying to sort them selves out while waiting for the tunnel to empty, there was a chap who took control, lots of pointing and centrelines being thrown to breast up, I sat on the aqueduct until I saw the boat start to leave the tunnel, obviously I left the aqueduct and as he past I asked "anyone in the tunnel" "nope" said the chap, so I tootled past the macrame and entered the tunnel, I was not popular  😉 

I've done the exact same thing.  I'm not gonna hover around waiting for all the waiting boats to untie.  I was nearly out the other end of the tunnel before the first one had entered behind me.  Likewise though, they didn't seem to like it.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

And of course since it does remain absolutely stationary for much of the time, there is a big contrast when it does actually “bob about a bit”, and it is that contrast that one notices.

 

 

I think there is a further effect in play - a psychological effect.

 

One feels one's boat move slightly and peers out of the porthole to see what is going past, only to see 'nothing'. On looking out the front (or back) doors and seeing just a kayak one feels amazed it moved one's boat at all and on recounting the event to others, one feels a tendency to exaggerate. 

 

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've done the exact same thing.  I'm not gonna hover around waiting for all the waiting boats to untie.  I was nearly out the other end of the tunnel before the first one had entered behind me.  Likewise though, they didn't seem to like it.

Exactly, by the time all the ropes had been untangled I was out of the tunnel 

[Bugsworth Tippler]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes it’s definitely the case that a tiny kayak which is only disturbing the top of the water, can have a remarkable effect on a moored boat. As you suggest, this is not displacement of a large volume of water as is the case with a narrowboat passing. I don’t think any method of tying up can resist this. However I would take issue with “really shaken”. The words I would have used would be “bobbed about a bit”. I suppose it depends on whether you think a moored boat should remain absolutely stationary, or not. And of course since it does remain absolutely stationary for much of the time, there is a big contrast when it does actually “bob about a bit”, and it is that contrast that one notices.

Thanks for the interesting comments. I don't think a boat should remain stationary but I do like it to be secure and not be thrust violently forwards and backwards, hence the reason I always 'spring it' - if that's the correct expression. My use of the phrase 'really shaken' was perhaps ill chosen but the boat movement I watched from the bank was more than 'bobbing about a bit'. The boat moved backwards and forwards as far as the ropes would allow and rose and fell maybe four inches or more (again restricted by ropes I should imagine); the sort of movement you might expect on a river when encountering the wake of a boat going the other way,

[GUMPY]

This would be much less of a problem if the canals were dredged to a decent depth.

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Bugsworth Tippler said:

Having spent a weekend moored up on the upper Macclesfield Canal with the boat sprung fore and aft, I have had no problems with passing boats, hire boats, day boats or privately owned. The only time the boat got really shaken was when a fast-moving kayak stormed past, clearly travelling a some multiple of 4mph. I wonder how this fits in with the idea of water displacement as the kayak was incredibly thin and rode high in the water? I ask the question but don't pretend to have an answer.

Very obvious if you moor near Cropredy on the S Oxford

[Mike Todd]

16 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Just spent a week on the Bridgewater, they know how to pass moored boats

Yea - wide and deep!

2 hours ago, Bee said:

Its a problem mostly caused by shallow edges. If something goes past displacing up to maybe 20 tons of water then unless its going painfully slow - barely moving at all - it will push and pull at the water as it travels. No matter how you tie a boat the water will be drawn away from beneath it leading to those scraping sounds that we all know and then tipping a bit as it sits on the bottom, a bit of fore and aft movement follows.  Some people are not good at tying up boats and some people are not good at steering them either but if the edges (and the middle) were deeper it would make a big difference. Irs cheaper to tell people to slow down than dredge the canal though so in the meantime we'll just have to shout at each other and not CRT.

Most canals were not built to facilitate mooring along the towpath. It would take much more than just dredging.

[manxmike]

To be fair I wasn't complaining (much) I was commenting on the fact that hire boats seem to be listening when advised by the hire base.

Slight change of direction but I am delighted that everyone is still so friendly and helpful.

I have a theory that all high powered business men and women should be forced to spend at least a week on the canals to calm them down.

[Big Bob W]

10 minutes ago, manxmike said:

I have a theory that all high powered business men and women should be forced to spend at least a week on the canals to calm them down.

Possibly, they are the ones who are annoying you!

[MtB]

I think a lot of boaters should run a business for a year, then they'd have a better understanding of basic economics.

[Hudds Lad]

2 hours ago, manxmike said:

I have a theory that all high powered business men and women should be forced to spend at least a week on the canals to calm them down.

I saw one of those (least he thought he was) on an ABC hire boat doing a 40-point turn at Middlewich Junction, sat on the taffrail with phone in one hand glued to his head having a loud conversation whilst rooster tailing in forward and reverse whilst his family stood next to us on the towpath apologising profusely and shouting at him to put the phone down. Some folk just can't let go for a day or two.

[blackrose]

18 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

I am wondering how it is that you, and several other people on here, constantly encounter speeding boats passing to the point you/they get aggravated and feel the need to vent on here. Whereas by comparison in the 50+ years I've been boating I can barely remember any passing boats ever giving cause for irritation. None that I can remember on the Llan although it is a few years since we last did it. Could it be that your boat (or actually yourself, since it seems you are not on your own boat) are somehow jinxed or cursed? Did you ever fall out with a gypsy or druid? Failing that I can't really understand how it is that you have this problem and yet we don't.

 

I think that shows that an element of whether boats are speeding is down to perception which of course is subjective. It's a bit like noise, unless you can actually measure it one's perception is all you have to go on. What's a noisy racket to me might be fine for the next person. There is the wake of a passing boat I suppose, but again it's all a bit subjective.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

I think a lot of boaters should run a business for a year, then they'd have a better understanding of basic economics.

 

Says the man who thinks LPG prices should never rise because in 1965 it was still a waste/by-product! 🤣

 

Sorry I couldn't resist...

[Idle Days]

It seems to me to be something like country villages where everyone demand that you slow down when driving through their village.

[MtB]

40 minutes ago, Idle Days said:

It seems to me to be something like country villages where everyone demand that you slow down when driving through their village.

 

 

"Me" to a tee!! 

 

 

[MtB]

Its the cyclists that are worst, long downhill stretch to the canal bridge near my hovel, they fly down at about 40mph, almost silently! Been nearly hit on multiple occasions.

[Arthur Marshall]

59 minutes ago, MtB said:

Its the cyclists that are worst, long downhill stretch to the canal bridge near my hovel, they fly down at about 40mph, almost silently! Been nearly hit on multiple occasions.

I did inadvertently send one into the hedge a couple of weeks ago. I'm lurching down the towpath with my stick, deaf as a board, he didn't have a bell (not that I'd have heard it anyway) - no idea if he said anything before he went into the hedge. Never knew he was there till all of a sudden, he was.

As most of them have got earbuds in, you'd think they'd expect everyone else to have them too so wouldn't hear them anyway. I've given up worrying about them, and the mad runners. I'm in the middle of the path because my balance goes and I'll move over if I'm aware, but mostly, I'm not.

[Tony1]

 

From my recent experience, it is a small minority of boats that actually slow down.

The most common thing is for them to cut the revs at about 50 yards away, and then sail past in tickover but still at almost full speed. 

But most times there is no harm done, apart from a momentary irritation, so I just ignore it. It just is what it is. 

And to be honest, I can understand how people get frustrated by passing long lines of moored boats at slow speed, like the golden mile near Tattenhall. 

 

Personally, I always slow down, or nearly always. 

On one of the rare occasions when I failed to slow down I was told that I was going too fast by an older gentleman stood on the bank.

I was giving three of my younger brothers and five of their teenage boys a go at driving the boat, and in focusing too much on their steering I failed to notice they weren't slowing down to pass a few boats. 

I turned back and shouted to the guy that I thought we were only doing about 2.5 mph, at which he shouted 'rubbish!', and we carried on.

One of the nephews said: 'do they always shout like that?', and I replied that sometimes they did.

As luck would have it, the whole crew of us were walking back down the towpath about half an hour later so that the lads could get their cars, and who should we see up ahead but the shouty gentleman. 

I decided to give him a scare. My younger brothers are rather burly-looking chaps and their lads take after them, so it was quite a crew that approached the old man. 

I scowled fiercely at him as we approached, stepped out to block his path, and as angrily as I could spat out: 'hey mate!'

He stopped dead, recognising me as the man he shouted at earlier, and looked very worried. 

Then I immediately stopped scowling, and beamed at him.

'I just wanted to apologise for passing too fast earlier on,' I said brightly.

'You were absolutely right, and I just didn't realise how fast we were going. Well spotted mate.'  

Without another word I moved on and the whole clan passed him by. 

One of the things you have to bear in mind is that if you yell at anyone on the cut, there's a good chance you'll see them again a bit further on.  

 

[tree monkey]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

I think a lot of boaters should run a business for a year, then they'd have a better understanding of basic economics.

Everyone who wants to own a dog should spend a summer season on a strimmer

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Everyone who wants to own a dog should spend a summer season on a strimmer

 

Having once accidentally 'strimmed' our dogs output in our garden I understand what you mean.

 

🤮🤮🤮