All routes out if Yorkshire closed ...again

[StephenA]

15 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

It's the closure of poolstock that's a surprise. They've not done that before and it really buggers  things up... 

It's really getting beyond a joke....

 

If the flight is closed then they won't be running water down and so I think the only feed into that section is from the River Douglas  at the juction- not sure how they're going to keep the line from Wigan to Liverpool / Rufford branch open with basically nothing feeding into it.

[TheBiscuits]

19 minutes ago, Pluto said:

Not sure how you would get round as the notice suggests that they are only opening lock 86, and not lock 85. I suppose it could be a typo!

 

85 is the bottom lock of the 21 modern flight.  86 is Henhurst lock down off the junction.

 

Poolstock 1&2 and Henhurst allow passage from the Leigh Branch towards Liverpool.

[Pie Eater]

23 minutes ago, Pluto said:

Not sure how you would get round as the notice suggests that they are only opening lock 86, and not lock 85. I suppose it could be a typo!

I think that Henhurst Lock and the Poolstock 2 will only be open at 10am and 2pm on Mondays and Thursdays only so that boats can still pass from the Bridgewater Canal to the Ribble Link/Liverpool Link and vice versa.

/

Edited July 1, 2022 by Pie Eater
As biscuits said.

[GUMPY]

Why would anyone in Yorkshire want to go west?  Surely to escape the Trent is the quickest route

 

[David Mack]

26 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Why would anyone in Yorkshire want to go west?  Surely to escape the Trent is the quickest route

 

If they are more than 60 ft long?

[GUMPY]

11 hours ago, David Mack said:

If they are more than 60 ft long?

Then they are stuck.

However with all the shorter canals up there why would one have a boat over 62ft as it restricts your access before you start.😱

[Pluto]

12 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

85 is the bottom lock of the 21 modern flight.  86 is Henhurst lock down off the junction.

 

Poolstock 1&2 and Henhurst allow passage from the Leigh Branch towards Liverpool.

As a historian, I usually use the traditional lock numbers and names, and can't get used to the idea of sequential numbers for locks along the whole canal. The two long locks at Wigan will always be numbers 22 and 23 to me. The way the information is given suggests that modern lock number 87, that is number 23 to me, will continue to be open, even though lock 86/22 is regulated.

[TheBiscuits]

11 minutes ago, Pluto said:

As a historian, I usually use the traditional lock numbers and names, and can't get used to the idea of sequential numbers for locks along the whole canal. The two long locks at Wigan will always be numbers 22 and 23 to me. The way the information is given suggests that modern lock number 87, that is number 23 to me, will continue to be open, even though lock 86/22 is regulated.

 

That is correct.

 

87(#23) by the dry dock isn't being locked, presumably because it allows some access to the elsan at 86(#22). The next nearest elsan is Burscough Wharf ...

 

85(#21) going uphill from the junction will be locked up and ashed.

 

The feeder on Wigan Junction isn't enough to keep the junction navigable with no water coming down the main flight, hence the restrictions on Poolstock locks and Henhurst (86/#22)

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

 

However with all the shorter canals up there why would one have a boat over 62ft as it restricts your access before you start.😱

Visitors from the Midlands/South making the most of those parts of the network they can visit (Rochdale, Huddersfield Narrow)?

[IanD]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

Visitors from the Midlands/South making the most of those parts of the network they can visit (Rochdale, Huddersfield Narrow)?

Only 2 of the 3 cross-Pennine routes are possible with a 62' boat, to be able to do all three (to improve the odds) 60' is the absolute maximum -- with care and the possibility of getting wet... 😉

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Only 2 of the 3 cross-Pennine routes are possible with a 62' boat, to be able to do all three (to improve the odds) 60' is the absolute maximum -- with care and the possibility of getting wet... 😉

2 of the cross-Pennine routes are possible with 70ft boats. Its the routes out to the east of the Pennines that are not!

[IanD]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

2 of the cross-Pennine routes are possible with 70ft boats. Its the routes out to the east of the Pennines that are not!

Huh? How do you get a 70-footer all the way across on the L&L?

 

I thought it would have been obvious that I was talking about getting all the way across if your first-choice route is blocked...

Edited July 2, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

Just now, IanD said:

Huh? How do you get a 70-footer all the way across on the L&L?

You don't!

It's the other two cross Pennine routes that will get you over the top and down the Yorkshire side with a 70 ft boat. It's just that having done that, the only way out is back the way you came.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You don't!

It's the other two cross Pennine routes that will get you over the top and down the Yorkshire side with a 70 ft boat. It's just that having done that, the only way out is back the way you came.

Which doesn't help if you're in the situation several people have found themselves in, stuck on one side and wanting to get to the other side, with stoppages restricting which canal they can get back on -- including the one they came over on. If you can get back over all three routes (58' or 60') then the changes of getting back are higher than having a choice of two (62') or one (70'), assuming you don't want to go a *very* long way round via the Trent.

 

Or am I missing something?

[Pluto]

On 02/07/2022 at 09:43, TheBiscuits said:

 

That is correct.

 

87(#23) by the dry dock isn't being locked, presumably because it allows some access to the elsan at 86(#22). The next nearest elsan is Burscough Wharf ...

 

85(#21) going uphill from the junction will be locked up and ashed.

 

The feeder on Wigan Junction isn't enough to keep the junction navigable with no water coming down the main flight, hence the restrictions on Poolstock locks and Henhurst (86/#22)

 

 

The legal requirements regarding water taken from the Douglas at Wigan date to the Liverpool Waterworks Act of 1847 (IIRC), when they were allowed to take 10 lockfulls per day. The lockfull was the traditional way of measuring water on the L&LC, one lockfull being 80,000 gallons. There may be more recent legislation, but as the feeder below Appley Bridge is also still in use, things may still be the same. The level of the Douglas below Wigan was lowered in the 1930s, such that the feed at Dean Locks no longer worked, with the feed then being moved further down river.

[TheBiscuits]

29 minutes ago, Pluto said:

The legal requirements regarding water taken from the Douglas at Wigan date to the Liverpool Waterworks Act of 1847 (IIRC), when they were allowed to take 10 lockfulls per day.

 

I didn't know that so thanks Mike.

 

The problem is that transit from the Leigh Branch to Wigan dry dock takes three lockfuls off the junction pond.  As both Poolstock and Henhurst leak like sieves ten lockfuls probably only allows one cycle per lock per day, so realistically two narrow boats or one widebeam is all the feeder can support.

 

I was hoping they would do some leak repairs during the stoppages, but if they are allowing booked passages through Poolstock twice a week there's less chance of any major works.

 

 

[Pie Eater]

I would have thought that CaRT would at least repair the snapped off towpath side ground paddle on Poolstock no 2 lock as that area is where a lot of the leakage is.

[George and Dragon]

I'll ask again: where is the flying pig icon/emoji?

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, George and Dragon said:

I'll ask again: where is the flying pig icon/emoji?

 

[dmr]

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I didn't know that so thanks Mike.

 

The problem is that transit from the Leigh Branch to Wigan dry dock takes three lockfuls off the junction pond.  As both Poolstock and Henhurst leak like sieves ten lockfuls probably only allows one cycle per lock per day, so realistically two narrow boats or one widebeam is all the feeder can support.

 

I was hoping they would do some leak repairs during the stoppages, but if they are allowing booked passages through Poolstock twice a week there's less chance of any major works.

 

 

ok I give up, why is it three lockfulls rather than two? (or only one if Henhurst just happens to be full when you get to it). Or are you just throwing in an extra lockful to compensate for leakage?

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, dmr said:

ok I give up, why is it three lockfulls rather than two? (or only one if Henhurst just happens to be full when you get to it). Or are you just throwing in an extra lockful to compensate for leakage?

 

Because you usually need to empty Poolstock Top to get enough water to transit Poolstock pound, then refill Top to get through it.  Henhurst usually leaks empty so needs filling.

 

If you're the first boat through in the morning you usually need to run all paddles on Poolstock Top for 45 minutes or so to make the pound navigable, so maybe 6 or 8 lockfuls.

 

With the restrictions on, this is being done by CRT staff before they take the padlocks off which makes life easier.

[dmr]

21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Because you usually need to empty Poolstock Top to get enough water to transit Poolstock pound, then refill Top to get through it.  Henhurst usually leaks empty so needs filling.

 

If you're the first boat through in the morning you usually need to run all paddles on Poolstock Top for 45 minutes or so to make the pound navigable, so maybe 6 or 8 lockfuls.

 

With the restrictions on, this is being done by CRT staff before they take the padlocks off which makes life easier.

 

Right, so it was a "leakage estimate lockfull". Have not been into Liverpool for a while now due to Covid so have no recent experience of Poolstock locks, just remember that they have a "not good" feel about them. 😀

[Pie Eater]

I cannot understand why the Poolstock pound is still not on this year's winter works programme as millions of gallons of water have been lost to the Bridgewater Canal over the last couple of years.

[dmr]

32 minutes ago, Pie Eater said:

I cannot understand why the Poolstock pound is still not on this year's winter works programme as millions of gallons of water have been lost to the Bridgewater Canal over the last couple of years.

I suspect leakage is not a top factor in gate replacement. If there is an easy fix, like a "cill repair section" then it might get done, but if the entire gates are towards end of life it probably makes sense to wait till they need replacing.  Water is shortest in summer and thats the boating season so the leakage when conpared to loss through locking might be considered acceptable?

[Pie Eater]

The top gates leak no more than others in the Wigan area although the bottom gates are in need of attention.

 

It is the broken towpath side ground paddle which drains the pound every night.