Vibrating tiller

[Big Chris]

18 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

It may not be the rudder that is at fault, but weed around the prop or a damaged prop could cause tiller vibration.

Checked all those.

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'm inclined to agree. On the other hand yours being a standard production spec boat it is unlikely that all of them do it so yours is probably damaged or modified in some way. I think the next step (after steering some other boats to compare) is to dock the boat for a look at the stern gear if you remain convinced there is a problem.

 

Did you get a survey done when you bought it? More specifically did you take hundreds of photos from all angles of under the waterline? If so, bung up some photos of the stern gear. 

 

(ALWAYS take loadsa pics when your bote comes out, for just this reason. You never know when you might need to know some underwater detail or other.)

 

 

I've had the boat from new.

[zenataomm]

Has it been like that from new?

If so why didn't you involve the builder?

 

If it's started happening since you've owned it, what's happened in between?

Have you ...

• Struck any under water obstacles?
• Cilled it, or hung it up?
• Badly docked it?
• Clouted the back end against a coping?
• Run aground, requiring some effort to get free?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, zenataomm said:

If it's started happening since you've owned it, what's happened in between?

Have you ...

• Struck any under water obstacles?
• Cilled it, or hung it up?
• Badly docked it?
• Clouted the back end against a coping?
• Run aground, requiring some effort to get free?

 

 

And in particular did the problem start suddenly one day, or gradually develop growing imperceptibly worse over a long period of time?

[Arthur Marshall]

Mine has always juddered a bit and got worse when the rudder tube was replaced. The yard said the rudder post was bent - if they'd told me while it was out of the water I'd have replaced the lot.

There's no bearing at the top of the tube so the post is loose and rattles about unbearably. It's actually noisier than the SR2. The only cure I've found is to put a bolt behind it and a jubilee clip to pull the post back so it can't vibrate. I can't fit a new bearing because the swan neck is welded to the post so you can't separate them.

This winter I'm going to try to make a fitting in two parts that I can drop in to fill the gap and then bolt the parts together...

 

[Peugeot 106]

38 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Mine has always juddered a bit and got worse when the rudder tube was replaced. The yard said the rudder post was bent - if they'd told me while it was out of the water I'd have replaced the lot.

There's no bearing at the top of the tube so the post is loose and rattles about unbearably. It's actually noisier than the SR2. The only cure I've found is to put a bolt behind it and a jubilee clip to pull the post back so it can't vibrate. I can't fit a new bearing because the swan neck is welded to the post so you can't separate them.

This winter I'm going to try to make a fitting in two parts that I can drop in to fill the gap and then bolt the parts together...

 

I believe you can get split bearings of all sorts which could be the way to go with a housing mounted at the top of the tube

[TheBiscuits]

22 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

more importantly it may be wise not to let my wife have a go on a bigger boat with  a ready made bed, a fridge and a telly!

 

If my wife didn't have a big bed and a fridge ( she's not bothered about the telly ) I'd not be allowed to spend all our money going boating!

 

I do want a bigger boat though.  The current discussion is widebeams Vs long narrow boats ...

[Peugeot 106]

It could be worse. We are pensioners. House Vs Care Home is always a worry. 

 

Good luck. I’m not a fan of wide beams having been stuck with a few. They do seem a bit incongruous on some canals and don’t half take up a lot of canal on the move.........Quite a few seem to zig, zag along so maybe they have steerage problems too

 

However if I was a live aboard and didn’t have to move it i’m sure I would want one!

[Arthur Marshall]

9 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I believe you can get split bearings of all sorts which could be the way to go with a housing mounted at the top of the tube

The problem is fitting anything. There's about an inch and a half gap between the block at the bottom of the swan neck and the top of the tube, so any bearing has to go into that gap and drop down into the tube. I'll have a look before I start cursing at stuff in the workshop.

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The problem is fitting anything. There's about an inch and a half gap between the block at the bottom of the swan neck and the top of the tube, so any bearing has to go into that gap and drop down into the tube. I'll have a look before I start cursing at stuff in the workshop.

 

I would have thought that that gap would be enough to fit a split brass/bronze bush with a shallow flange at the top to stop

it falling down the tube. As there is probably a gap between rudder and uxter plate I suspect you can probably lift the whole assembly to get a deeper gap. It would be a case of getting such a bush custom made. As long as it did not swell when in contact with water a plastic split bush might be a better idea.

[Tracy D'arth]

35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would have thought that that gap would be enough to fit a split brass/bronze bush with a shallow flange at the top to stop

it falling down the tube. As there is probably a gap between rudder and uxter plate I suspect you can probably lift the whole assembly to get a deeper gap. It would be a case of getting such a bush custom made. As long as it did not swell when in contact with water a plastic split bush might be a better idea.

Or even a chunk of hardwood turned to a taper, then cut in half, so that it could be tapped down to take up any slack.

[Murflynn]

10 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

 

 

Good luck. I’m not a fan of wide beams having been stuck with a few. They do seem a bit incongruous on some canals and don’t half take up a lot of canal on the move.........Quite a few seem to zig, zag along so maybe they have steerage problems too

 

 

 

I believe transatlantic liners in the 19th century also had problems with Steerage - probably as a result of them peering through the bars of the barrier separating them from the First Class passengers .............     Maybe they rattled the gates too.   

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would have thought that that gap would be enough to fit a split brass/bronze bush with a shallow flange at the top to stop

it falling down the tube. As there is probably a gap between rudder and uxter plate I suspect you can probably lift the whole assembly to get a deeper gap. It would be a case of getting such a bush custom made. As long as it did not swell when in contact with water a plastic split bush might be a better idea.

The solution before the new tube was a bit of platic washing up bottle shoved down the gap and held in place with a jubilee clup. Still do that but the gaps bigger now. I need to make something the exact size.

[Bee]

What diameter are we talking about here? 

[Arthur Marshall]

55 minutes ago, Bee said:

What diameter are we talking about here? 

If that's to me, the post is about 45mm and it looks like a 3mm gap. It's a bit hard to meadure because of all the jubilee clips stopping the vibration. After this cruise I'll lob them off and get a micrometer on it.

[David Mack]

12 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 I can't fit a new bearing because the swan neck is welded to the post so you can't separate them.

Why? The whole point of the standard arrangement is that it can be dismantled for maintenance.

[Peugeot 106]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would have thought that that gap would be enough to fit a split brass/bronze bush with a shallow flange at the top to stop

it falling down the tube. As there is probably a gap between rudder and uxter plate I suspect you can probably lift the whole assembly to get a deeper gap. It would be a case of getting such a bush custom made. As long as it did not swell when in contact with water a plastic split bush might be a better idea.

I made a small bearing out of acetal for a sail furling. I machined at the local Technical College in the evenings it was easy to machine. Direct Plastics website is vey good. I suggest properties required are economical, tough, slippery, non swelling in water, easy machining. Get enough to make spares. If it doesn’t work you won’t have broken any banks and can try something else. Bronze does sound nice though. Maybe make a prototype out of plastic for a machine shop to copy? Good Luck

[Peugeot 106]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why? The whole point of the standard arrangement is that it can be dismantled for maintenance.

Where would the fun be  if that were the case!

I thought the whole point of Narrowboats was that they all built differently and a lot were like submarines and you have to cut the whole thing in two to access the oil filter....

Is there a Haynes manual I have not yet discovered that will explain all....

[Arthur Marshall]

34 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why? The whole point of the standard arrangement is that it can be dismantled for maintenance.

Why is the swan neck welded to the post? I dunno. It just is. I don't think it was when I bought the boat, but at some stage about twenty five years ago someone was doing some work on the boat (can't remember what) and, finding something wrong with it they couldn't fix, welded it. 

If the yard who rebottomed the old tub had told me there was a problem, I'd have had it renewed when they put the new rudder tube in, but they didn't. I've never seen another fitting quite like mine, either.

[bizzard]

24 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Why is the swan neck welded to the post? I dunno. It just is. I don't think it was when I bought the boat, but at some stage about twenty five years ago someone was doing some work on the boat (can't remember what) and, finding something wrong with it they couldn't fix, welded it. 

If the yard who rebottomed the old tub had told me there was a problem, I'd have had it renewed when they put the new rudder tube in, but they didn't. I've never seen another fitting quite like mine, either.

It's not that unusual, your rudder stock probably passes through a tube welded in the rudder secured with pinch and through nut and bolt, release these and the whole stock and tiller can be removed from the top leaving the ruddder blade behind.

[Bee]

Arthur, I've got some Delrin in the shed that night be a solution to that, Whenever you can send me some measurements I can make up a split or some sort of bearing, the wall thickness is a bit on the thin side but I can have a go, we are away for 3 months from May 10 so either in the next few days or when we get back would be fine if that helps. 

[Peugeot 106]

35 minutes ago, Bee said:

Arthur, I've got some Delrin in the shed that night be a solution to that, Whenever you can send me some measurements I can make up a split or some sort of bearing, the wall thickness is a bit on the thin side but I can have a go, we are away for 3 months from May 10 so either in the next few days or when we get back would be fine if that helps. 

Now there’s an offer. I could do with a few mates like that

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Arthur, I've got some Delrin in the shed that night be a solution to that, Whenever you can send me some measurements I can make up a split or some sort of bearing, the wall thickness is a bit on the thin side but I can have a go, we are away for 3 months from May 10 so either in the next few days or when we get back would be fine if that helps. 

That's terrific. I'm back home next Monday, so will dismantle all the gubbins, measure everything properly and PM you the details. I'll obviously reimburse you whatever costs you incur and for your time. It's a very generous offer and is very much appreciated.

[Peugeot 106]

I think Delrin is ideal. It’s not good with any adhesive or mastic so you may have to come up with a way to hold it down. Pipe clamp, hole and split pin, jubilee clip or even foam wrapped round the gap and taped. Or if Bee has enough Delrin and the energy could he machine a bolted collar to hold it down.

 

I hope you can report on the result with photos. They will be interesting

 

[Arthur Marshall]

29 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I think Delrin is ideal. It’s not good with any adhesive or mastic so you may have to come up with a way to hold it down. Pipe clamp, hole and split pin, jubilee clip or even foam wrapped round the gap and taped. Or if Bee has enough Delrin and the energy could he machine a bolted collar to hold it down.

 

I hope you can report on the result with photos. They will be interesting

 

I'll report in due course. Very grateful for all suggestions.

[Peugeot 106]

Loads of nylon hydraulic pipe clamps from nylon so won’t scratch your delrin collar on google/eBay in loads of sizes. Thickness could be cut down if an issue. They are even square so will match your fitting

sorry I don’t know how to attach a web page.

 

This has been a good diversion for me as I am recovering from a tooth extraction which reminded me of getting exhaust bolts out...... Dentist cut it in two before taking it out in the end but thankfully was more sophisticated than a gas axe, angle grinder, multitool, chisel and hammer or explosives. Unlike many of my jobs he finished what he started the same day

 

heyho and good luck. All these rattling tillers look like shaking the fish up