Vibrating tiller

[Big Chris]

I read somewhere that trimming around 30mm from the rear of my rudder blade may reduce tiller vibration. Any advice would be welcome.

[Tracy D'arth]

So may adding a bit. 

[Bee]

The rudder is operating in its own little world of turbulence and vibrations are kind of natural. There could be be a few causes, worn rudder bearings are possible, a bit off the rudder blade here there or everywhere might help but just have a look at the propeller first, if there is anything round the prop it can make a suprising difference to the feel of the tiller.

[Mad Harold]

It may not be the rudder that is at fault, but weed around the prop or a damaged prop could cause tiller vibration.

[Cheshire cat]

I don't think builders produce boats with tiller vibration. A bent prop is the most likely reason

[Peugeot 106]

I had a badly vibrating tiller. See my 2 posts at the end of the thread on “S shape tillers”. I increased the weight and it solved it. A simple and not too expensive remedy if appropriate. You can experiment with weighting your current tiller by wrapping lead round it before going for a new one (increase dia or make solid) . A blacksmith will make a new one fairly cheaply using the old one as a template. I was told it was the bearing or cup. I fettled both and it didn’t make any difference but when I increased the weight the vibrations virtually dissappeared. Mine was a hollow tiller. I think the vibration was due to the turbulence generated by the prop and a not very elegant swim.

Anyway it’s worth a try with the lead (scrapyard). I hope you solve it as it can be a literal pain! Good luck

I should add that my boat had a new propellor shaft and bearings, rebalanced propellor, new rudder bearing and refurbished bottom cup and still vibrated until I increased the weight.

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I had a badly vibrating tiller. See my 2 posts at the end of the thread on “S shape tillers”. I increased the weight and it solved it. A simple and not too expensive remedy if appropriate. You can experiment with weighting your current tiller by wrapping lead round it before going for a new one (increase dia or make solid) . A blacksmith will make a new one fairly cheaply using the old one as a template. I was told it was the bearing or cup. I fettled both and it didn’t make any difference but when I increased the weight the vibrations virtually dissappeared. Mine was a hollow tiller. I think the vibration was due to the turbulence generated by the prop and a not very elegant swim.

Anyway it’s worth a try with the lead (scrapyard). I hope you solve it as it can be a literal pain! Good luck

I should add that my boat had a new propellor shaft and bearings, rebalanced propellor, new rudder bearing and refurbished bottom cup and still vibrated until I increased the weight.

Who was the hull builder?

[StephenA]

32 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

It may not be the rudder that is at fault, but weed around the prop or a damaged prop could cause tiller vibration.

 

It could also be the position of the prop in relation to the rudder.

[Quattrodave]

Check your prop is clean and not prop wrapped!

[Peugeot 106]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Who was the hull builder?

In my case it is a 25 foot Hallmark. I think  they were also called Liverpool boats amongst other things. I would describe it as one step up from a Springer as it is heavier built. It is actually not a bad boat but it does have a very blunt bow and swim!

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

In my case it is a 25 foot Hallmark. I think  they were also called Liverpool boats amongst other things. I would describe it as one step up from a Springer as it is heavier built. It is actually not a bad boat but it does have a very blunt bow and swim!

 

Thanks for that

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

In my case it is a 25 foot Hallmark. I think  they were also called Liverpool boats amongst other things.

 

We had a 40' Hallmark 'Millenium', I think it was one of the best handling NBs we had and it was by far the  best one for reversing.

 

They were definitely nothing to do with Liverpool boats - That is a slur - Hallmark boats were built 'straight' with both sides the same size and a far better standard of welding.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Peugeot 106]

29 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

It could also be the position of the prop in relation to the rudder.

I’m not sure how you can alter this much as you don’t want too much propshaft overhang unless it is too long already. Have you changed the engine or gearbox so that the overhang is too long and the prop too close to the rudder? I think the correct overhang is around 1.5 x shaft dia. 

[Peugeot 106]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

We had a 40' Hallamark 'Millenium', I think it was one of the best handling NBs we had and it was by far the  best one for reversing.

 

They were definitely nothing to do with LIverpool boats - That is a slur - Hallmark boats were built 'straight' with both sides the same size and a far better standard

of welding.

 

 

Well there you go. Ours is the 25’ Islander DOT and I’ve Even painted it the same colour by pure coincidence!

 

Apologies to you and Hallmark for the slur but as i’ve said I’m very pleased with it and we have another 2 month cruise planned for the summer. We could have sold it several times over on our travels and it is rust free despite its age so i’m not the only one that likes it

[Tony Brooks]

A newish boater may get tiller vibrations by  trying to go too fast for the canal depth and profile o try throttling back a little.

[syd]

14 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Well there you go. Ours is the 25’ Islander DOT and I’ve Even painted it the same colour by pure coincidence!

 

Apologies to you and Hallmark for the slur but as i’ve said I’m very pleased with it and we have another 2 month cruise planned for the summer. We could have sold it several times over on our travels and it is rust free despite its age so i’m not the only one that likes it

25ft Dot, don't get many up for sale, lovely little boat, a little trivia the range name 'Dot' named after Chris's mum after she passed away. (Chris & his wife owned Hallmark).

Edited April 21, 2022 by syd

[Peugeot 106]

3 minutes ago, syd said:

25ft Dot, don't get many up for sale, lovely little boat, a little trivia the range name 'Dot' named after Chris's mum after she passed away. (Chris & his wife owned Hallmark).

May I add for anyone that has this style of sunken companionway. Water enters the rear deck when on a mooring from the gunwhale behind the side of the cabin. I Put an ice cream container under this point on each side with flexible pipe into the hatch gutter ( jam the pipe in the gap). When cruising you need a pipe under the step into a bucket which you empty every now and then

 

Hey presto a completely dry engine bilge! I have a LPWS2 and people even comment favourably on the distinctive 2 cylinder noise! I pump the shower water overboard rather than into the bilge. The pump is under the step.

 

Making the very comfortable bed takes all of 3 minutes each night and finding moorings is a doddle as it is so short and you can turn around almost anywhere. 

 

Glad somebody else likes it and thank you Chris and Dot and Syd for the info

 

its workaday fond name  in the family is Dumpi as it’s short and dumpy and has a dumper truck engine fitted

 

[Peugeot 106]

3 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

May I add for anyone that has this style of sunken companionway. Water enters the rear deck when on a mooring from the gunwhale behind the side of the cabin. I Put an ice cream container under this point on each side with flexible pipe into the hatch gutter ( jam the pipe in the gap). When cruising you need a pipe under the step into a bucket which you empty every now and then

 

Hey presto a completely dry engine bilge! I have a LPWS2 and people even comment favourably on the distinctive 2 cylinder noise! I pump the shower water overboard rather than into the bilge. The pump is under the step.

 

Making the very comfortable bed takes all of 3 minutes each night and finding moorings is a doddle as it is so short and you can turn around almost anywhere. 

 

Glad somebody else likes it and thank you Chris and Dot and Syd for the info

 

its workaday fond name  in the family is Dumpi as it’s short and dumpy and has a dumper truck engine fitted

 

O and you can take it out of the water and put it back in somewhere else without using a yard crane with  a HIAB for £65 an hour including diesel. And the Marina is only.....£

[MtB]

All tillers vibrate to a degree. The OP's might be perfectly normal. Best way to find out is for the OP to blagg a steer of s couple of other narrowboats. 

 

Just 30 seconds holding the tiller of a few other boats will give something to compare with. 

 

Or, the OP could get an experienced boater to steer theirs for ten minutes to get an opinion.

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

40 minutes ago, MtB said:

All tillers vibrate to a degree. The OP's might be perfectly normal. Best way to find out is for the OP to blagg a steer of s couple of other narrowboats. 

 

Just 30 seconds holding the tiller of a few other boats will give something to compare with. 

 

Or, the OP could get an experienced boater to steer theirs for ten minutes to get an opinion.

 

 

Excellent idea. But if like me after half a day you have a sore hand and a wife that won’t take the helm there is probably something wrong. But  I do agree that it is easy to get things out of proportion if you have nothing to compare with. In my case a trip on a 60’ widebeam might persuade me that my 25’ boat is a load of rubbish! I will admit to never having travelled on any other boat but more importantly it may be wise not to let my wife have a go on a bigger boat with  a ready made bed, a fridge and a telly!

 

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

But if like me after half a day you have a sore hand and a wife that won’t take the helm there is probably something wrong.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree. On the other hand yours being a standard production spec boat it is unlikely that all of them do it so yours is probably damaged or modified in some way. I think the next step (after steering some other boats to compare) is to dock the boat for a look at the stern gear if you remain convinced there is a problem.

 

Did you get a survey done when you bought it? More specifically did you take hundreds of photos from all angles of under the waterline? If so, bung up some photos of the stern gear. 

 

(ALWAYS take loadsa pics when your bote comes out, for just this reason. You never know when you might need to know some underwater detail or other.)

 

 

[Murflynn]

the problem of how to cure a fluttering rudder has a parallel with the Mercedes F1 porpoising issue and even their huge team of engineers can't fathom it out.   Fluid dynamics (in water or in air) can defeat rational analysis in either case.

[Peugeot 106]

You can go round a marina trying various tiller/rudders at rest but it is difficult to feel anything. In terms of simplicity trying my method of altering the weight is easiest with lead to try first. My tiller was hollow. The only hollow one i’ve ever seen. The cup on the skeg is an easy refurbish if you have a decent welder and the boat is out of the water. Replacing the top bearing will need the tiller rudder post separating.( Big hammer, puller and blow torch). Once you get into stern gear if you think the prop is in the wrong place  you may need to shorten the prop shaft or get a longer one. This isn’t too expensive but if you have to take the shaft out the boat  you will have to be out of the water. I do most of the work myself but am aware that if you have to lift out and pay somebody else that the pennies soon add up

In my case we fitted a new engine and I have no idea if it vibrated with the original engine though I was told it did. We also altered the pitch on the propellor. 

I’m not sure about altering the rudder. The speeds are so slow and the arrangement so crude that I doubt it would make much difference. It’s not a racing yacht and I doubt that the builders pore over rudder designs.

MtB’s plan is definitely best as a first step before trying anything to get a feel but beware of taking advice off“knowledgeable” people. I was pissed off when I refurbished the cup on advice and it made no difference even though the boat was already out for blacking.

it could be a damaged skeg/ rudder but i’m not sure how that would make it vibrate though I would expect it to feel different

I am pushing the tiller weight theory hard as it was simple, quick and cheap to diagnose but only as it was definitely my problem and solved it but recognise that what worked for me may not be your problem. You could quickly try it and eliminate this as a cause of your problem

you have my sympathies as ours is very pleasant now and it’s not as simple to solve as I at first thought like everything else on these boats!

In the first instance suggest you hitch a ride on a few similar boats as suggested. Maybe hang around a lock with your thumb out

Meanwhile steer with your hips/tummy where possible!

Let us know how you get on. 

good Luck

[70liveaboard]

16 hours ago, syd said:

25ft Dot, don't get many up for sale, lovely little boat, a little trivia the range name 'Dot' named after Chris's mum after she passed away. (Chris & his wife owned Hallmark).

Nice surprise Hallmark boats, I'm a fan of them, do you have one ?

Your right about the range name.

[Big Chris]

17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

A newish boater may get tiller vibrations by  trying to go too fast for the canal depth and profile o try throttling back a little.

Tony, Thankyou, I have owned this boat for 12 years and am quite experienced. I acknowledge the relationship of

speed and depth of water. I have checked all the basics re condition of the prop, fouling, and shaft wear. This is an ongoing issue.

5 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

You can go round a marina trying various tiller/rudders at rest but it is difficult to feel anything. In terms of simplicity trying my method of altering the weight is easiest with lead to try first. My tiller was hollow. The only hollow one i’ve ever seen. The cup on the skeg is an easy refurbish if you have a decent welder and the boat is out of the water. Replacing the top bearing will need the tiller rudder post separating.( Big hammer, puller and blow torch). Once you get into stern gear if you think the prop is in the wrong place  you may need to shorten the prop shaft or get a longer one. This isn’t too expensive but if you have to take the shaft out the boat  you will have to be out of the water. I do most of the work myself but am aware that if you have to lift out and pay somebody else that the pennies soon add up

In my case we fitted a new engine and I have no idea if it vibrated with the original engine though I was told it did. We also altered the pitch on the propellor. 

I’m not sure about altering the rudder. The speeds are so slow and the arrangement so crude that I doubt it would make much difference. It’s not a racing yacht and I doubt that the builders pore over rudder designs.

MtB’s plan is definitely best as a first step before trying anything to get a feel but beware of taking advice off“knowledgeable” people. I was pissed off when I refurbished the cup on advice and it made no difference even though the boat was already out for blacking.

it could be a damaged skeg/ rudder but i’m not sure how that would make it vibrate though I would expect it to feel different

I am pushing the tiller weight theory hard as it was simple, quick and cheap to diagnose but only as it was definitely my problem and solved it but recognise that what worked for me may not be your problem. You could quickly try it and eliminate this as a cause of your problem

you have my sympathies as ours is very pleasant now and it’s not as simple to solve as I at first thought like everything else on these boats!

In the first instance suggest you hitch a ride on a few similar boats as suggested. Maybe hang around a lock with your thumb out

Meanwhile steer with your hips/tummy where possible!

Let us know how you get on. 

good Luck

Many thanks