BMC 1.8 Starter/Staring Problems

[Puff Along]

 

I'm still having starting problems when starting from cold.Once fired up it's fine all day.

It is a reconditioned engine ,It now has a new CAV injection pump as the one supplied was not fit for purpose.The seller purchased the new one and had it sent directly to me from the wholesaler.

It never seems to spin over fast enough when cold. Batteries 2x110 amp are Fully Charged 4 years old.

I had the starter looked at by a local specialist he renewed the solenoid as it showed signs of a lot of wear .I have a picture and will try to attach it.

This however didn't fix the slowness of start.

The guy who is helping me suggested there may be a power drop.

So I have purchased so 50mm cables to run from batteries to starter.

They have not yet been fitted as he has got the lug crimper at home and not down in Torquay.

What someone asked is it the correct starter? 

Do 1.5 starters fit a 1.8 and are they the same Amps Output?

If they are different this could be the cause.

I also realise a recon is tight when newly refurbed I have put 30 hrs on the clock since fitting.

Any thoughts would be most helpful.

Thanks Nigel

[Tracy D'arth]

Starters are compatible.

 

Are you using both batteries in parallel?   After 4 years they may not be up to the mark.

 

Are they "leisure" batteries or proper starter batteries with a high cranking rating?

 

Check the ground cables as well as the positives. Is there a good earth strap from the engine to the battery negatives?  You may be earthing through control cables, exhaust and drive shaft which will not be good.

[Puff Along]

Hi Mr Darth

Yes they are in Parallel now the battery switch either 1 or 2 or both was changed 2 months back to the Tractor type either ON or OFF. batteries wired in line.

They are Leisure batteries. 110amps

The last paragraph I will have to look into.

Thanks for your time.

Picture are to large of the solenoid it looked like it had been shorting out.

I have cropped images on my phone so hopefully I can upload from that

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Puff Along said:

Hi Mr Darth

Yes they are in Parallel now the battery switch either 1 or 2 or both was changed 2 months back to the Tractor type either ON or OFF. batteries wired in line.

They are Leisure batteries. 110amps

The last paragraph I will have to look into.

Thanks for your time.

Picture are to large of the solenoid it looked like it had been shorting out.

I have cropped images on my phone so hopefully I can upload from that

Leisure batteries are not intended as starter batteries. They have thinner plates and are not designed to supply high cranking current.

[Puff Along]

Now that I didn't know tbh I don't know a lot anyway.They may not be leisure I just thought with that amperage they looked leisure like. Something else to check out this afternoon .I think i may have the invoice for them in the boat paper work somewhere.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

The contacts on that solenoid are fine if a bit off line. They always look like that, they are switching hundreds of amps every time you start. 

To all intents the starter motor is a dead short when you first turn it on!

[Tony Brooks]

Many so called leisure batteries these days are no such things. As a well respected ex member said, they are start batteries with handles. They are sometimes called dual purpose but this particular form probably does both but not as well as one designed specifically for the task could.

 

Tracy is correct that  a true leisure battery will have few but thicker plates. The Trojans and US battery types tend to be like this. True leisure batteries should not carry ratings for CCA (cold cranking amps) or MCCA (marine cold cranking amps). If they do then they are probably dual purpose  types and they should do the job. If there is only an Amp hour (Ah) capacity then they probably are true leisure batteries. I think most so called leisure batteries costing around £100 will be dual purpose.

[StephenA]

have you checked your BMS?

[Slim]

You haven't mentioned heaters. Is the engine reluctant to turn over or just fire.?

Edited April 19, 2022 by Slim

[Puff Along]

45 minutes ago, StephenA said:

have you checked your BMS?

I Know Not of BMS???/  as a Dyslexic i can tell you they are a expensive Driving School  

4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The contacts on that solenoid are fine if a bit off line. They always look like that, they are switching hundreds of amps every time you start. 

To all intents the starter motor is a dead short when you first turn it on!

I had new

contacts fitted and bench tested .Last month so that side of should be fine/[hopefully]

[StephenA]

2 minutes ago, Puff Along said:

I Know Not of BMS???/  as a Dyslexic i can tell you they are a expensive Driving School  

I had new

contacts fitted and bench tested .Last month so that side of should be fine/[hopefully]

 

Battery Master Switch.....

[Puff Along]

36 minutes ago, Slim said:

You haven't mentioned heaters. Is the engine reluctant to turn over or just fire.?

If you mean Heater Plugs they where new on the re-con but as it was slow I got the ones that give out 2x power they where quoting 8 seconds i believe but it has been taking up to 90 seconds.

 

2 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Battery Master Switch.....

Brand New 3 weeks ago.Changed it from a 1 bat 2 bat or both to a Tractor One and ON/OFF and the batteries are now inline.

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Battery Master Switch.....

Oh, Not Battery Management System then?

 

I know you say the batteries are "only" 4 years old but I would try an new proper starter battery first.  Many 2 weeks old are knakkkered.

[StephenA]

27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Oh, Not Battery Management System then?

 

I know you say the batteries are "only" 4 years old but I would try an new proper starter battery first.  Many 2 weeks old are knakkkered.

 

I'm surprised there isn't a separate engine battery - I'd certainly not want to run everything off two paralleled off batteries, no matter how good they are.

Also I'm not sure if the 1 bat, 2 bat or both would be the battery master switch or distribution switch

[Tony Brooks]

53 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Also I'm not sure if the 1 bat, 2 bat or both would be the battery master switch or distribution switch

 

Could be either or both depending upon how it is wired.

[Slim]

1 hour ago, Puff Along said:

If you mean Heater Plugs they where new on the re-con but as it was slow I got the ones that give out 2x power they where quoting 8 seconds i believe but it has been taking up to 90 seconds.

 

Brand New 3 weeks ago.Changed it from a 1 bat 2 bat or both to a Tractor One and ON/OFF and the batteries are now inline.

OK. When you energise the heater plugs do they physically ģet warm? Do you have a volt meter in the circuit and does the voltage drop down to about 10 volts? I'm trying to determine whether  the heater plugs are actually working . You still haven't answered whether when trying to start the engine cold it turns over slowly.  My 1.8 will eventually start from cold even if I ďoñ't energise the heater plugs but it's  a long slog.

 

 

 

[Quattrodave]

Hmmm sound like a great reconditioned engine you got there... Any way, start at the beginning.  Your starting battery, how many CCA, Have you fully charged it, is the standing voltage 12.6v / 12.7v.  Get a decent set of jump leads and connect battery directly to the starter motor, how quickly does it turnover now?

[Steve56]

Have the carbon brushes in the starter been checked, both for condition and ensuring they are free in the holders. Also is the commutator clean. Any issues here could cause starter to spin slowly.

[john.k]

A recond engine may be very tight.......at least a few hundred hours running to free up.........the starter pictured is new ,dont know if thats the problem one.

[Slim]

8 hours ago, Slim said:

OK. When you energise the heater plugs do they physically ģet warm? Do you have a volt meter in the circuit and does the voltage drop down to about 10 volts? I'm trying to determine whether  the heater plugs are actually working . You still haven't answered whether when trying to start the engine cold it turns over slowly.  My 1.8 will eventually start from cold even if I ďoñ't energise the heater plugs but it's  a long slog.

 

 

 

Sorry, missed that "never seems to spin fast enough" line in your first post. Will drop out of debate as others are covering subject.  

[john.k]

Yes,there are so many dodgy BMC s its hard to keep up...........maybe I should offer my prized "AUSTIN DIESEL" badge as a trophy for the wonkiest BMC.

Edited April 20, 2022 by john.k

[Tracy D'arth]

I am curious.

 

Where did this "reconditioned" engine come from please? How long ago?  What colour is it painted?  It may be a relevant question.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[Tony Brooks]

Some thoughts.

 

Try working some oil into the bush supporting the shaft at the pinion end. It should have been soaked in oil for a time before fitting so it absorbs oil for long time lubrication but it is not unknown for this not to happen and you do get "flat battery" symptoms and low cranking speed. For those who don't know the starter bushes are made form compressed bronze powder so they will absorb oil.

 

It is easy to check for undersized cable and bad connections as long as there are two of you and you have a multi-meter.

 

Set multi-meter to 20 volts DC and if necessary extend one of the cables.

 

Connect the meter between battery positive and the terminal where the link between solenoid and starter is fitted to the body. It should read battery voltage but ignore this. Operate the starter and while it is spinning take the reading. If it is more than 0.5V then you have volt drop that needs finding. Move the cable on the starter to the solenoid main positive cable and repeat. If the reading has dropped it is because of resistance in the solenoid connections or contacts. Step back to the load/engine side of the master switch & repeat, then the battery side until you find the point where the volt drop disappears. If the reading just drops a little at each step the cable is probably undersized.

 

Repeat but this time between the battery negative and a clean point on the starter body or any negative terminal on the body. This time expect a maximum of 0.25V. If it is higher move to the engine block, and then if it is  a metal boat the engine bed, then the CONDUCTORS in the terminal that forms the bond to the hull.

 

[Puff Along]

13 hours ago, john.k said:

A recond engine may be very tight.......at least a few hundred hours running to free up.........the starter pictured is new ,dont know if thats the problem one.

Yes it was new on the re con.

20 hours ago, Slim said:

OK. When you energise the heater plugs do they physically ģet warm? Do you have a volt meter in the circuit and does the voltage drop down to about 10 volts? I'm trying to determine whether  the heater plugs are actually working . You still haven't answered whether when trying to start the engine cold it turns over slowly.  My 1.8 will eventually start from cold even if I ďoñ't energise the heater plugs but it's  a long slog.

 

 

 

HeTmater Plug new and heating voltage drops from 14.5 to 10 volts on instrumentation and have been multi meterd

[Tony Brooks]

Just the heaters should not drop the battery voltage to 10V. The starter load will, but not the heaters. Modern heaters tend to draw a very high current quickly dropping to about 50 amps total for all four plugs. That 10V makes me suspect a battery problem or resistance in cables, but not the glow plug cable. Either in the negatives or between battery positive and wherever the voltmeter is connected.  If you are using a voltmeter on a glow plug then it could be a cable or switch problem but that does not square with the low cranking speed unless the problem is in the master switch.