Today's new newbie - barge houseboat

[Balloon]

Just now, LadyG said:

Give the man a break, he has to fit his life around things like working, rather than approaching it from a dedicated boater type. It's not easy changing from one conventional lifestyle to an unknown destination.x

Agreed. But I work full time plus a million as a headteacher and also raising a daughter on my own. And find time for all the boaty things on my own and also time to enjoy boating. It depends where your priorities are but you’ll find time for the things that matter to you. 

[PabloC]

23 hours ago, MtB said:

You're overthinking this.

23 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would go for the newer one

13 hours ago, MtB said:

Dear PabloC, read and inwardly digest this. Put away the spreadsheets, stop self-flagellating and perhaps buy one of those two boats you listed earlier. Either will do, and both will get you on the water NOW. If either of them feels nice to be on, the boat is telling you to buy it. Yes this happens.

Buy a boat you like, not one that ticks a column of boxes. You need to like being on it, it's where you're gonna spend a lot of time. It is all too easy to look at a few boats, then a few more, then more again and never make a decision from information paralysis. 

Thanks for these replies and thanks for the responses re heating.

 

I went to view today, am now seriously considering it. 

The broker suggested to bring it out the water either at a place they know or a place I choose - need to finalise the quotes for this before I make an offer. The BBS was renewed in February and blacked in 2020. 

Then just need to decide if I'm going for a marina for 6 months first or straight into CCing. Will phone the marina tomorrow - Willowtree in West London if anyone knows it.

I need to get my head around leisure or peid-a-terre mooring and what these offer and if they're worth the money. Also considering a general backwards and forwards around the corner of the Grand Union/Paddington arm. 

 

Thanks again though, smalls steps getting closer

W

[Balloon]

@PabloC were not far from you. PM me if you want to pop over and see our boat and get a feel for this life. And chat things through. I’m a risk assessy spreadsheet tick list kind of girl but love this life and would be happy to help if you think it would. 

[PabloC]

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Give the man a break, he has to fit his life around things like working, rather than approaching it from a dedicated boater type. It's not easy changing from one conventional lifestyle to an unknown destination.x

Thanks, I'm trying to approach it cautiously. I don't want to rush into a lifestyle just because it looks peaceful, cheaper etc etc on the surface. Rose tinted glasses have caused me issues in the past lol

7 minutes ago, Balloon said:

@PabloC were not far from you. PM me if you want to pop over and see our boat and get a feel for this life. And chat things through. I’m a risk assessy spreadsheet tick list kind of girl but love this life and would be happy to help if you think it would. 

That would be great! Am I ok to message you?

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, PabloC said:

Thanks for these replies and thanks for the responses re heating.

 

I went to view today, am now seriously considering it. 

The broker suggested to bring it out the water either at a place they know or a place I choose - need to finalise the quotes for this before I make an offer. The BBS was renewed in February and blacked in 2020. 

Then just need to decide if I'm going for a marina for 6 months first or straight into CCing. Will phone the marina tomorrow - Willowtree in West London if anyone knows it.

I need to get my head around leisure or peid-a-terre mooring and what these offer and if they're worth the money. Also considering a general backwards and forwards around the corner of the Grand Union/Paddington arm. 

 

Thanks again though, smalls steps getting closer

W

Summer is easy, so a month in a marina would be enough to familiarise yoursel, and you can go out for a few hours on a Sunday.

Might be a good idea to get lessons

[Balloon]

6 minutes ago, PabloC said:

Thanks, I'm trying to approach it cautiously. I don't want to rush into a lifestyle just because it looks peaceful, cheaper etc etc on the surface. Rose tinted glasses have caused me issues in the past lol

That would be great! Am I ok to message you?

Of course 

6 minutes ago, PabloC said:

Thanks, I'm trying to approach it cautiously. I don't want to rush into a lifestyle just because it looks peaceful, cheaper etc etc on the surface. Rose tinted glasses have caused me issues in the past lol

That would be great! Am I ok to message you?

It’s not rose tinted. It’s not cheaper. 
 

but it is peaceful and lovely. 

[ditchcrawler]

29 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Give the man a break, he has to fit his life around things like working, rather than approaching it from a dedicated boater type. It's not easy changing from one conventional lifestyle to an unknown destination.x

No break needed, its a fact, he wont get free hot water from his engine if he doesn't run it regularly. He will ether run his engine without going anywhere to heat the water or he will use a diesel heater, so he may as well have his air cooled engine and burn gas, it will probably be more efficient. Suggesting he may not move much, he was considering a boat with no engine so not much plan to move.

 

[IanD]

18 hours ago, PabloC said:

Thanks for these replies and thanks for the responses re heating.

 

I went to view today, am now seriously considering it. 

The broker suggested to bring it out the water either at a place they know or a place I choose - need to finalise the quotes for this before I make an offer. The BBS was renewed in February and blacked in 2020. 

Then just need to decide if I'm going for a marina for 6 months first or straight into CCing. Will phone the marina tomorrow - Willowtree in West London if anyone knows it.

I need to get my head around leisure or peid-a-terre mooring and what these offer and if they're worth the money. Also considering a general backwards and forwards around the corner of the Grand Union/Paddington arm. 

 

Thanks again though, smalls steps getting closer

W

 

CCing over the stretch from Watford to Paddington should meet the CC rules so long as you keep moving over the full length, not just shuffling backwards and forwards between a couple of (or a few) places close together. Just be aware that anywhere that's a "good mooring" (e.g. road/rail/tube access, anywhere near facilities like water/sewage/rubbish) is likely to be crowded or just plain full, because lots of other people have the same idea. Apart from the last mile or two into Paddington (which is chocka) there's plenty of mooring space on the towpath but not near any facilities and often in less salubrious areas (noisy, factories, railway lines).

 

If the boat's at Willowtree (a couple of miles from me, I cycle past it regularly) I'd suggest you moor there initially while you investigate all this, including mooring spots along this stretch of canal -- a bike will easily take you along the whole length, you can talk to people and spy out potential mooring spots.

[PabloC]

On 21/04/2022 at 16:43, IanD said:

CCing over the stretch from Watford to Paddington should meet the CC rules so long as you keep moving over the full length, not just shuffling backwards and forwards between a couple of (or a few) places close together. Just be aware that anywhere that's a "good mooring" (e.g. road/rail/tube access, anywhere near facilities like water/sewage/rubbish) is likely to be crowded or just plain full, because lots of other people have the same idea. Apart from the last mile or two into Paddington (which is chocka) there's plenty of mooring space on the towpath but not near any facilities and often in less salubrious areas (noisy, factories, railway lines).

 

If the boat's at Willowtree (a couple of miles from me, I cycle past it regularly) I'd suggest you moor there initially while you investigate all this, including mooring spots along this stretch of canal -- a bike will easily take you along the whole length, you can talk to people and spy out potential mooring spots.

Thanks for this! 

 

I'm going back and forth with offers at the moment and waiting on the marina to confirm a space.

 

Something playing on my mind is the immersion heater. I've been reliably informed that 3kw of immersion heater and clarifier will cost a lot to run, so am thinking about other options. I'm unsure if this is 12 or 230v. 

 

Does anyone have any suggestions that are an easy replacement and cheaper? I'd be looking for a system that would heat the radiator in the bedroom and that has a thermostat and/or timer option to keep the temperature regulated when I'm at work and the stoves run itself down. 

 

Would a couple of tube heaters been a suitable replacement whilst I look at fitting something more permanent? 

A gas heater off the cooker supply has also been suggested, is this an easy swap and whats the cost? Would this be a webasto type thing?

 

Thanks again!

p.s if anyones in North London/London and would be free to come for a second viewing, I'd happily pay travel costs.

 

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, PabloC said:

Thanks for this! 

 

I'm going back and forth with offers at the moment and waiting on the marina to confirm a space.

 

Something playing on my mind is the immersion heater. I've been reliably informed that 3kw of immersion heater and clarifier will cost a lot to run, so am thinking about other options. I'm unsure if this is 12 or 230v. 

 

Does anyone have any suggestions that are an easy replacement and cheaper? I'd be looking for a system that would heat the radiator in the bedroom and that has a thermostat and/or timer option to keep the temperature regulated when I'm at work and the stoves run itself down. 

 

Would a couple of tube heaters been a suitable replacement whilst I look at fitting something more permanent? 

A gas heater off the cooker supply has also been suggested, is this an easy swap and whats the cost? Would this be a webasto type thing?

 

Thanks again!

p.s if anyones in North London/London and would be free to come for a second viewing, I'd happily pay travel costs.

 

 

 

[David Mack]

Electric heating of water or space is only viable if you have a mains connection. Otherwise you want a diesel fired boiler - either the eperspacher/webasto/mikuni type, which will run from a 12V supply, or the gravity fed refleks type. Either can be used to heat the calorifier and/or radiators. Gas boilers are also available but generally cost more to run.

And if you have a water cooled engine and a twin coil calorifier you can also heat water whenever the engine is running.

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

In my opinion, not scientific, the cheapest heating overnight is oil filler rads on shore power. I have Webasto which is ok but noisy and very much "on  warm," off cool, and needs the engine run to charge the batteries,.

When I am off grid, on shore power they still need charged by a charger.

On shore power portable rads can be placed where you are, ie bedside, or in saloon. Tubes keep you from freezing.

The solid fuel stove is essential on the cut imho. Mine heats one tiny rad and gives warm water.

I use engine for showering, that is to say, after moving the boat there is hot water, and if batteries are low, I fire up engine. All these things are inefficient. Mains power rocks.

Edited April 29, 2022 by LadyG

[PabloC]

29 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Electric heating of water or space is only viable if you have a mains connection. Otherwise you want a diesel fired boiler - either the eperspacher/webasto/mikuni type, which will run from a 12V supply, or the gravity fed refleks type. Either can be used to heat the calorifier and/or radiators. Gas boilers are also available but generally cost more to run.

And if you have a water cooled engine and a twin coil calorifier you can also heat water whenever the engine is running.

There will be a mains connection, but I'm expecting the cost to be too high to run as I'd like.

So I should really be looking to get a diesel fired boiler fitted? Can these be run on a timer?

I believe with the boat I'm looking at that there is the option to run the heat off the engine - not sure how practical this would be though, suppose it depends on how long the heat lasts after being turned off.

 

25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

In my opinion, not scientific, the cheapest heating overnight is oil filler rads on shore power. I have Webasto which is ok but noisy and very much "on  warm," off cool, and needs the engine run to charge the batteries,.

When I am off grid, on shore power they still need charged by a charger.

On shore power portable rads can be placed where you are, ie bedside, or in saloon. Tubes keep you from freezing.

The solid fuel stove is essential on the cut imho. Mine heats one tiny rad and gives warm water.

I use engine for showering, that is to say, after moving the boat there is hot water, and if batteries are low, I fire up engine. All these things are inefficient. Mains power rocks.

Would an oil filled rad be trusted to be safe when not on the boat?

I will have the stove which no doubt will go a long way, I'm just a little in the dark how long the heat would last for if let die down during the day/over night.

 

I guess it comes down to how much I'm happy to spend using mains power.

Thanks for the replies.

[alias]

20 minutes ago, PabloC said:

There will be a mains connection, but I'm expecting the cost to be too high to run as I'd like.

 

By law marinas cannot charge you more per unit than they pay. They can however make a charge for provision of infrastructure to supply the power. This means that if you have power at all then that will come with a significant daily charge however much you choose to use. 

[Tracy D'arth]

29 minutes ago, PabloC said:

There will be a mains connection, but I'm expecting the cost to be too high to run as I'd like.

So I should really be looking to get a diesel fired boiler fitted? Can these be run on a timer?

I believe with the boat I'm looking at that there is the option to run the heat off the engine - not sure how practical this would be though, suppose it depends on how long the heat lasts after being turned off.

 

Would an oil filled rad be trusted to be safe when not on the boat?

I will have the stove which no doubt will go a long way, I'm just a little in the dark how long the heat would last for if let die down during the day/over night.

 

I guess it comes down to how much I'm happy to spend using mains power.

Thanks for the replies.

It has become obvious that you have no idea of how to heat a boat or how you power such heating. Or what forms of heating and appliances are available.

You have a lot of research to do if you really intend living on a boat.

[PabloC]

14 minutes ago, alias said:

 

By law marinas cannot charge you more per unit than they pay. They can however make a charge for provision of infrastructure to supply the power. This means that if you have power at all then that will come with a significant daily charge however much you choose to use. 

I'm just waiting to hear back from the marina, I guess this varies?

 

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

It has become obvious that you have no idea of how to heat a boat or how you power such heating. Or what forms of heating and appliances are available.

You have a lot of research to do if you really intend living on a boat.

This is why I'm here asking.

I have a fair idea of the heating options and the practicality of them, especially in regard to the boat in question - am just trying to get as much info as I can.

I'm happy to hear advice from anyone - if you think I have a lot of research still to do, please let me know what that research is - at the moment that comment isn't really that useful.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

16 minutes ago, PabloC said:

I'm just waiting to hear back from the marina, I guess this varies?

 

This is why I'm here asking.

I have a fair idea of the heating options and the practicality of them, especially in regard to the boat in question - am just trying to get as much info as I can.

I'm happy to hear advice from anyone - if you think I have a lot of research still to do, please let me know what that research is - at the moment that comment isn't really that useful.

 

Research  what fuels are available to you on a boat, whether it is out on the cut or in a marina. 

What appliances you can use on a boat with bottled gas, diesel, electricity, solar and solid fuel.

 

Forget domestic gas boilers and oil boilers.  Appliances on a boat are like nothing domestic. How are you going to heat water? Using an engine is grossly inefficient. You cannot get enough solar all year to heat  the water never mind run central heating.

 

If you are not on a shore line for electricity, using it for any form of heating is impossible as it takes twice to thrice the amount of energy to recharge the battery fully. And if you don't recharge fully lead acid batteries are doomed to a very short life.  Lithium may be better but you are still operating on a very inefficient system.

 

Think how you will buy smokeless fuel, gas and diesel at an economic rate, a 13kg propane bottle lasts a very short time heating a boat all day.

 

How are you going to run timers if you are not on a shore line?

 

If your answer is to be on a wide beam behemoth stranded in a marina which it will never leave, plugged into a shore line with only 16A available then you would be much better off in a flat or house. A house does not need blacking every 2 or 3 years.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[Alan de Enfield]

56 minutes ago, PabloC said:

There will be a mains connection, but I'm expecting the cost to be too high to run as I'd like.

 

If you consider that expensive you should maybe just stand back and consider if boating is for you.

 

Taking all of the costs into account it works out at about £5 (5 pounds) per Kw to produce electricity using the boat engine.

It will cost you 20p - 30p per Kw to plug into the shore line.

 

20x the cost of buying it from the grid !!

 

This is why you should NEVER use electricity for heating (in any form -  boiling the kettle, electric fire, oil filed radiators or immersion heater etc) unless you are plugged into the shoreline.

 

Electricity from your batteries should be used for small appliances such as phone chargers, computers, lights and pumps.

[Slow and Steady]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If your answer is to be on a wide beam behemoth stranded in a marina which it will never leave, plugged into a shore line with only 16A available then you would be much better off in a flat or house. A house does not need blacking every 2 or 3 years.

 

While that made me chuckle, living on a boat even in a marina is more than economics. Location, location, location.

I've suddenly got the capital to buy a house and probably will to keep up with prices, but actually living in it? I'm not so sure I want to. So peaceful here on the boat in the marina - a simple life away from the hurly burly.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Slow and Steady

[PabloC]

 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Research  what fuels are available to you on a boat, whether it is out on the cut or in a marina. 

What appliances you can use on a boat with bottled gas, diesel, electricity, solar and solid fuel.

 

If you are not on a shore line for electricity, using it for any form of heating is impossible as it takes twice to thrice the amount of energy to recharge the battery fully. And if you don't recharge fully lead acid batteries are doomed to a very short life.  Lithium may be better but you are still operating on a very inefficient system.

 

Think how you will buy smokeless fuel, gas and diesel at an economic rate, a 13kg propane bottle lasts a very short time heating a boat all day.

 

How are you going to run timers if you are not on a shore line?

Thanks for breaking this down. - especially about the batteries.

 

The boat in question, in a marina - 

 

Immersion heater

Hot water via engine

Solid fuel stove - smokeless fuel 

Gas cooker

680w Solar

On shore if necessary

 

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you consider that expensive you should maybe just stand back and consider if boating is for you.

By 'as I'd like', I meant mid-winter 3 hours in an afternoon before coming back from work and 3 hours early morning before getting up.

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Taking all of the costs into account it works out at about £5 (5 pounds) per Kw to produce electricity using the boat engine.

It will cost you 20p - 30p per Kw to plug into the shore line.

30p is what I was working to when considering the immersion heater from onshore - but I have no idea if people consider that a cost effective way of heating, or if there are alternatives. 

 

Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I would be connected to the shore line, or at least have access to the shore line if necessary. 

 

1 hour ago, Slow and Steady said:

While that made me chuckle, living on a boat even in a marina is more than economics. Location, location, location.

I've suddenly got the capital to buy a house and probably will to keep up with prices, but actually living in it? I'm not so sure I want to. So peaceful here on the boat in the marina - a simple life away from the hurly burly.

This is very much my thinking - I don't do well with hurly burly. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by PabloC

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, PabloC said:

680w Solar

 

Remember that for 5 or 6 months of the year you will get next to nothing out of the Solar.

 

5 minutes ago, PabloC said:

By 'as I'd like', I meant mid-winter 3 hours in an afternoon before coming back from work and 3 hours early morning before getting up.

 

An immersion heater will not heat the boat. All you can do is have a couple of electric 'fires' on timers running from the shoreline. ENSURE you clear this with your insurers as they may not be happy.

 

6 minutes ago, PabloC said:

Solid fuel stove - smokeless fuel 

 

This is by far the 'normal' way of heating a NB. With a back-boiler and leave it on 'low' all day it will tick over keeping the boat comfortable, when you get home crank-it-up a bit and within a few minutes you can be toasty warm.

Has the boat got radiators ?

Provides all the hot water (showers, pot washing etc) that you could need.

 

Personally I'd go for an eberspacher (diesel heater) programmed to come on and off exactly the same as a domestic central heating system.

Has the boat got radiators ?

Provides all the hot water (showers, pot washing etc) that you could need.

 

Another alternative, seldom found on NBs, but normal on GRP boats is a blown hot air system. Again a diesel fired Eberspacher. The benefits being that unlike hot water / radiator systems that can take 'hours' to warm up, the blown hot air system is instant, within 5 minutes the boat can go from 'cold' to 20 degrees.

This is the system we have on our current GRP Cruiser - we switch the system on and it stays on for 4, 5, 6 ..... months or until we leave the boat. Works on a thermostat and you wake up on cool frosty mornings to a warm cabin.

The down side of this system is it does not provide hot water.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Taking all of the costs into account it works out at about £5 (5 pounds) per Kw to produce electricity using the boat engine.

It will cost you 20p - 30p per Kw to plug into the shore line.

... per kWh!!!!

19 minutes ago, PabloC said:

The boat in question, in a marina - 

 

Immersion heater

Hot water via engine

If you are on a shore line, that will be the cheapest way of heating water if that is all you want to do. If you are running the engine for other reasons, or running a diesel stove to heat the radiators, then you may as well let that heat the water at the same time.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Slow and Steady said:

While that made me chuckle, living on a boat even in a marina is more than economics. Location, location, location.

I've suddenly got the capital to buy a house and probably will to keep up with prices, but actually living in it? I'm not so sure I want to. So peaceful here on the boat in the marina - a simple life away from the hurly burly.

Obviously depends on the housing, but when I did my budget the cost of boat living as a cc was equivalent to living on land, the Council tax being the same as a Licence. The marina I  first lived in was about £2k per year, but heating was about the same as on land, maybe a bit more. So I'd say that the extra costs are the cost of the marina, a nice marina is £3k, and that's in the North. Not all marina moorings have power, that's a huge disadvantage.

As to being quiet and peaceful, it depends where you live.

Edited April 29, 2022 by LadyG

[Slow and Steady]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Obviously depends on the housing, but when I did my budget the cost of boat living as a cc was equivalent to living on land, the Council tax being the same as a Licence. The marina I  first lived in was about £2k per year, but heating was about the same as on land, maybe a bit more. So I'd say that the extra costs are the cost of the marina, a nice marina is £3k, and that's in the North.

Nice 100 boat marina here in Rufford = £2060 for 60ft.

I moved from a large double fronted victorian house - my elec, cooking and heating costs went down 90%. my licence compared to rates went down 40%. My commuting costs went down 100% because I retired, my alcohol & food costs went down 95% when I got divorced because my ex was a fat greedy drunken slob. And toilet paper - my god, what do women do with it all? 

 

Going to be a different equation for everyone isn't it? There's no one size fits all here, it's apples and oranges but with rising diesel prices and the cost of generating your own electric I doubt there's much cost difference between a cheap marina and CCing.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Slow and Steady

[PabloC]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is by far the 'normal' way of heating a NB. With a back-boiler and leave it on 'low' all day it will tick over keeping the boat comfortable, when you get home crank-it-up a bit and within a few minutes you can be toasty warm.

Has the boat got radiators ?

Provides all the hot water (showers, pot washing etc) that you could need.

 

Personally I'd go for an eberspacher (diesel heater) programmed to come on and off exactly the same as a domestic central heating system.

Has the boat got radiators ?

Provides all the hot water (showers, pot washing etc) that you could need.

 

Another alternative, seldom found on NBs, but normal on GRP boats is a blown hot air system. Again a diesel fired Eberspacher. The benefits being that unlike hot water / radiator systems that can take 'hours' to warm up, the blown hot air system is instant, within 5 minutes the boat can go from 'cold' to 20 degrees.

This is the system we have on our current GRP Cruiser - we switch the system on and it stays on for 4, 5, 6 ..... months or until we leave the boat. Works on a thermostat and you wake up on cool frosty mornings to a warm cabin.

The down side of this system is it does not provide hot water.

Thanks, that's really helpful!

The boat has one radiator in the bedroom.

I'll look into an eberspacher, and possibly a blown hot air system. 

 

31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you are on a shore line, that will be the cheapest way of heating water if that is all you want to do. If you are running the engine for other reasons, or running a diesel stove to heat the radiators, then you may as well let that heat the water at the same time.

sorry, just to clarify - the immersion heater will be the cheapest way of heating water, unless I had the diesel stove on which could heat both water and air?