Battery fit out: space + box?

[callumboater]

Hi all,

 

First post on here so please be gentle. 

 

I am looking at upping my power, and get some new/more solar panels. (any advice on these would be useful, using bimble solar for a guide currently)

 

Trouble is, I currently have no space for more leisure batteries. the battery box I inherited sits above the engine, and has just enough space for an engine battery + 2 leisure batteries. 

 

Any advice on where people have found space, I am on a narrowboat with sledges on either side above the engine where I could build a box but is this sensible, what factors do I need to take into account. 

 

Alternatively, and much more easily, I have space to add another 'layer' of three leisure batteries above my current layer. again has anyone done this, is it a nono?

 

Thanks!

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by callumboater

[Alan de Enfield]

If you stack another box of batteries above the existing box, how will you have access to check the water-levels every week ?

 

By above the engine, do you really mean ABOVE the engine or to the side of the engine ? - you can normally get 3-5 batteries each side of the engine on the flat 'swims' (is this what you call the 'sledge')

 

However you do it, you need to ensure that you have easy access to the batteries and that the installation meets the requirements of the Boat safety Examination, where only a certain amount of movement is allowed and the batteries should be fixed (strapped down or other methods)

 

Batteries are heavy things and you should try and keep the weight distributed evenly on both sides, and as low in the boat as possible. Having weight high-up makes the boat less stable.

 

Photos of your existing battery-box and 'engine hole' in general would be helpful so as to give relevant advice.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Welcome to the forum.

No answers yet, but some questions, which will help the team with the most satisfactory answers. .

• How do you use your boat? Leisure at weekends, full time living on board, what?
• Have you done a power audit? If so, how many Amp.hours do you use a day?
• How many and what capacity batteries do you currently have? Why do you think the current number is not enough?
• Most importantly, how are you charging them? How many hours/day engine running? solar? shore line? generator?

 

Having more batteries isn't as important as making sure the batteries are getting regularly fully charged. All this is assuming regular lead acid batteries of course. Also assuming the boat is 12V, not 24V.

Jen

Edited April 6, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[callumboater]

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you stack another box of batteries above the existing box, how will you have access to check the water-levels every week ?

 

By above the engine, do you really mean ABOVE the engine or to the side of the engine ? - you can normally get 3-5 batteries each side of the engine on the flat 'swims' (is this what you call the 'sledge')

 

However you do it, you need to ensure that you have easy access to the batteries and that the installation meets the requirements of the Boat safety Examination, where only a certain amount of movement is allowed and the batteries should be fixed (strapped down or other methods)

 

Batteries are heavy things and you should try and keep the weight distributed evenly on both sides, and as low in the boat as possible. Having weight high-up makes the boat less stable.

 

Photos of your existing battery-box and 'engine hole' in general would be helpful so as to give relevant advice.

 

Will get pictures uploaded tomorrow.  when I say above I mean above and behind.  the 'swims; is exactly what I meant. Will measure these up too. 

 

Just removed our pump out toilet (not a nice job) so could do with some more weight on one side anyway. 

 

Thanks for this!!!

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, callumboater said:

Just removed our pump out toilet (not a nice job)

 

 

 

 

 

UNLESS you are replacing it by a bucket full of coconut shavings that you have to keep under the bed for 3 years before you can dispose of them

Edited April 6, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[callumboater]

40 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Welcome to the forum.

No answers yet, but some questions, which will help the team with the most satisfactory answers. .

• How do you use your boat? Leisure at weekends, full time living on board, what?
• Have you done a power audit? If so, how many Amp.hours do you use a day?
• How many and what capacity batteries do you currently have? Why do you think the current number is not enough?
• Most importantly, how are you charging them? How many hours/day engine running? solar? shore line? generator?

 

Having more batteries isn't as important as making sure the batteries are getting regularly fully charged. All this is assuming regular lead acid batteries of course. Also assuming the boat is 12V, not 24V.

Jen

Thank you.

 

I am live aboard. (unfortunately for my partner who is also now living aboard)

 

I have done a power audit, will find it when home tonight along with details of current batteries - the reason for the increase is we don't have enough to run our fridge + normal lights, phone charging etc... (so mainly for fridge, although I would like to get a small tv in eventually too)

 

charging them by solar, (so extra power really needed for the dark winters). currently it is enough for everything minus fridge (and of course our webasto water heater which we need to run the engine to work)

 

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

 

 

UNLESS you are replacing it by a bucket full of coconut shavings that you have to keep under the bed for 3 years before you can dispose of them

 

Went for a small compost loo. which basically seems to be a couple bins with a toilet seat over the top and a fan blowing the smell away. 

 

Works for us.... currently. But I haven't dared have a curry yet so can report back. 

 

no coconut shavings or sawdust or maintenance of any kind.... so far

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, callumboater said:

...........and a fan blowing............

 

Thats why you need more batteries.

 

Have you read the thread on C&RTs view on Composting Toilets ?

 

64 pages of why a Composting Toilet doesn't work on a boat

 

 

 

[callumboater]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thats why you need more batteries.

 

Have you read the thread on C&RTs view on Composting Toilets ?

 

64 pages of why a Composting Toilet doesn't work on a boat

 

 

 

Thanks, read every forum out there I think. Works for us, fan doesn't seem to detract too much from power, Its the fridge we can never keep running. 

 

New I shouldn't have mentioned the toilet.... would rather keep this battery focused. 

 

Thanks though, 

 

[Tony Brooks]

What battery monitoring are you using? From some of your comments I have a feeling your batteries are never or rarely fully charged so may now have only a fraction of their nominal capacity. If you are relying on a solar controller for battery monitoring there is every chnace it is lying to you and overstating the state of charge.

 

FWIW for several years we got by with 2 x 110Ah batteries running an electric fridge ,florescent lights and phone charging. Adding another 110Ah battery allowed the use of a computer and an Alde boiler, but we did change the most used lamps to LED.  However we did long days cruising and I was happy to run the engine to charge the batteries when needed. Originally we had no solar, then about 60 watts and much later 160W.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, callumboater said:

and of course our webasto water heater which we need to run the engine to work

 

The Webasto should be capable of running without the engine running - why do you need to run the engine ?

 

You would appear to be running two 'water heating' appliances (unles you have an air cooled engine), just running the engine alone should heat the water, and just running the Webasto should heat the water.

 

The only thing I can think as to why you need to run the engine is that your batteries are crackered and do not hold enough leccy to power the Webasto.

 

Have you done a battery capacity check to see what the current capacity is (it will probably be well down on what they were new)

[Jen-in-Wellies]

If the batteries are not being fully charged regularly, then adding more isn't going to help. You will just end up with more batteries not being fully charged. With lead acids, they will lose capacity if not regularly, like a minimum of once a week, but better if every other day, fully charged up. This is why the questions you are being asked are going in the direction they are.

Over the depths of winter, the amount of charge you can get from solar will likely be only a tenth of what you can get in mid summer, on the average, so most boaters will need another means of battery charging for the winter months.

Have you considered turning off the fridge during the coldest months and storing food outside? It needs protection from rodents, both of the Rattus Norvegicus and Homo Sapiens variety, but will save you a lot of power each day.

[callumboater]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

What battery monitoring are you using? From some of your comments I have a feeling your batteries are never or rarely fully charged so may now have only a fraction of their nominal capacity. If you are relying on a solar controller for battery monitoring there is every chnace it is lying to you and overstating the state of charge.

 

FWIW for several years we got by with 2 x 110Ah batteries running an electric fridge ,florescent lights and phone charging. Adding another 110Ah battery allowed the use of a computer and an Alde boiler, but we did change the most used lamps to LED.  However we did long days cruising and I was happy to run the engine to charge the batteries when needed. Originally we had no solar, then about 60 watts and much later 160W.

 

Sounds like it could just be needing new batteries then. I will go get details of batteries currently have, and have a look at power output from them. 

 

Trouble is we are only moving one day every two weeks, and a away most of the day, so often no chance to run the engine.

 

The wabesto has always needed engine running to work. Or at least to start up. the engine on its own doesn't heat the water. 

 

 

 

[Onewheeler]

1 minute ago, callumboater said:

 

Sounds like it could just be needing new batteries then. I will go get details of batteries currently have, and have a look at power output from them. 

 

Trouble is we are only moving one day every two weeks, and a away most of the day, so often no chance to run the engine.

 

The wabesto has always needed engine running to work. Or at least to start up. the engine on its own doesn't heat the water. 

 

You may have an automotive Webasto which needs more volts to start than the marine version. Ours is reluctant to start after a couple of days moored off shore power (but plenty of charge left), and needs a bit of a boost from the engine to get it going. (And before anyone chirps up, the connections are fine!)

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, callumboater said:

Sounds like it could just be needing new batteries then. I will go get details of batteries currently have, and have a look at power output from them. 

 

Do you know how to do a battery capacity check ?

[callumboater]

Just now, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If the batteries are not being fully charged regularly, then adding more isn't going to help. You will just end up with more batteries not being fully charged. With lead acids, they will lose capacity if not regularly, like a minimum of once a week, but better if every other day, fully charged up. This is why the questions you are being asked are going in the direction they are.

Over the depths of winter, the amount of charge you can get from solar will likely be only a tenth of what you can get in mid summer, on the average, so most boaters will need another means of battery charging for the winter months.

Have you considered turning off the fridge during the coldest months and storing food outside? It needs protection from rodents, both of the Rattus Norvegicus and Homo Sapiens variety, but will save you a lot of power each day.

 

This makes sense. I Was going to add more solar too.

 

We do that in the winter already, it is more for the between times of year when it is too warm outside, but not that sunny. 

 

Year round solar gives us enough for everything except the fridge. So my thought was to add some more solar, plus more energy storage, for the warm but not too bright days.

 

I think sounds like I need to:

- have a re-look at what power I need and am using. taking into account how much this will lower in winter/ dark days

- Have a look at current battery performance. 

- share what batteries currently have + solar

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Do you know how to do a battery capacity check ?

Only how much power it can release when fully charged, not how much power it can hold?

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

If you've not yet read the battery charging primer, pinned to the top of Boat Building & Maintenance, then I'd recommend it.

 

[Bod]

17 minutes ago, callumboater said:

 

Sounds like it could just be needing new batteries then. I will go get details of batteries currently have, and have a look at power output from them. 

 

Trouble is we are only moving one day every two weeks, and a away most of the day, so often no chance to run the engine.

 

The wabesto has always needed engine running to work. Or at least to start up. the engine on its own doesn't heat the water. 

 

 

 

Before spending money on new batteries, how exactly do you recharge the current ones, both method and length of time charging, on a daily basis?

It's almost pointless to buy new batteries, if you cannot recharge them properly, they will be wrecked in a very short time. (Think days)

 

Bod.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, callumboater said:

 

This makes sense. I Was going to add more solar too.

 

We do that in the winter already, it is more for the between times of year when it is too warm outside, but not that sunny. 

 

Year round solar gives us enough for everything except the fridge. So my thought was to add some more solar, plus more energy storage, for the warm but not too bright days.

 

I think sounds like I need to:

- have a re-look at what power I need and am using. taking into account how much this will lower in winter/ dark days

- Have a look at current battery performance. 

- share what batteries currently have + solar

 

Only how much power it can release when fully charged, not how much power it can hold?

 

 

 

 

A new battery is rated at so many Ah (typically a NB battery is 110Ah) when you fail to recharge it daily it starts to sulphate (get blocked up with mud as an analogy) this reduces the capacity it can hold.

Imagine a  5 litre bucket, put an inch of mud in the bottom and it only holds 4.5 litres, do the same the next day and it now holds 4 litres and repeat, repeat, it is still a 5 litre bucket but its capacity irs reduced.

 

You can get a 12v battery the size of a finger nail, or the size of a small car - both are 12 volt but they have a very different capacity for holding 'leccy.

 

If you have not charged your battery until full, then the 'mud' in the bottom contiues to fill up the battery, your 110Ah battery is now (possibly) only 25Ah which means it does not have enough energy to start the WEBASTO.

 

I'D SUGGEST THAT YOU DO NOT BUY ANY MORE BATTERIES UNTIL YOU LEARN HOW TO LOOK AFTER AND MAINTAN THE ONES YOU HAVE - YOU CAN KILL NEW BATTERIES WITHIN A MATTER OF A COUPLE OF WEEKS

 

To do a capcity check you need a known load (an old fashioned - non LED - car headlight is a good one), ideally something around 120watts / 10 amps is ideal

 

FULLY charge the battery until it has remained at around 14.4-14.6 volts and the charging current is under 2% of the battery bank (say 4 amps) and this has not changed for 2 hours.

Turn everything electrical off.

Note the time.

Attach the load and wait.

Every half hour or so check the battery voltage with a multimeter - dont use any 'gadets like the solar controller - they lie.

When the battery voltage gets to 12,2 volts, switch off the load,

Note the time.

Wait 10 minutes and test the voltage again, if has risen to (say) 12.3 or 12.4 volts 

Note the time

Reattach the load

Check the voltage and when it gets down to 12.2 volts disconnect the load.

Note the time.

 

Work out the total time the load has been connected - lets say it was 4 hours.

 

12.2 volts is 50% state of charge for a 12v battery.

We know the load was 10 amps

We have timed it as being 4 hours

 

By taking the battery from 100% to 50% we have used 10 amps x 4 hours = 40Ah

Therefore the battery is now an 80Ah battery

 

If it had taken 3 hours to reach 12.2 volts then the battery (100% to 50%) would be 10 x 3 = 30Ah
Therefore the battery would now a 60Ah battery.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[bizzard]

Bung em anywhere you can get at them properly, even on the roof rather on the swim tops under the deck which is absolutely ridiculous for access.

[callumboater]

16 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you've not yet read the battery charging primer, pinned to the top of Boat Building & Maintenance, then I'd recommend it.

 

Oh no! Another rabbit hole to see everything I am doing wrong!

 

Thank you for this!

 

[callumboater]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A new battery is rated at so many Ah (typically a NB battery is 110Ah) when you fail to recharge it daily it starts to sulphate (get blocked up with mud as an analogy) this reduces the capacity it can hold.

Imagine a  5 litre bucket, put an inch of mud in the bottom and it only holds 4.5 litres, do the same the next day and it now holds 4 litres and repeat, repeat, it is still a 5 litre bucket but its capacity irs reduced.

 

You can get a 12v battery the size of a finger nail, or the size of a small car - both are 12 volt but they have a very different capacity for holding 'leccy.

 

If you have not charged your battery until full, then the 'mud' in the bottom contiues to fill up the battery, your 110Ah battery is now (possibly) only 25Ah which means it does not have enough energy to start the WEBASTO.

 

I'D SUGGEST THAT YOU DO NOT BUY ANY MORE BATTERIES UNTIL YOU LEARN HOW TO LOOK AFTER AND MAINTAN THE ONES YOU HAVE - YOU CAN KILL NEW BATTERIES WITHIN A MATTER OF A COUPLE OF WEEKS

 

To do a capcity check you need a known load (an old fashioned - non LED - car headlight is a good one), ideally something around 120watts / 10 amps is ideal

 

FULLY charge the battery until it has remained at around 14.4-14.6 volts and the charging current is under 2% of the battery bank (say 4 amps) and this has not changed for 2 hours.

Turn everything electrical off.

Note the time.

Attach the load and wait.

Every half hour or so check the battery voltage with a multimeter - dont use any 'gadets like the solar controller - they lie.

When the battery voltage gets to 12,2 volts, switch off the load,

Note the time.

Wait 10 minutes and test the voltage again, if has risen to (say) 12.3 or 12.4 volts 

Note the time

Reattach the load

Check the voltage and when it gets down to 12.2 volts disconnect the load.

Note the time.

 

Work out the total time the load has been connected - lets say it was 4 hours.

 

12.2 volts is 50% state of charge for a 12v battery.

We know the load was 10 amps

We have timed it as being 4 hours

 

By taking the battery from 100% to 50% we have used 10 amps x 4 hours = 40Ah

Therefore the battery is now an 80Ah battery

 

If it had taken 3 hours to reach 12.2 volts then the battery (100% to 50%) would be 10 x 3 = 30Ah
Therefore the battery would now a 60Ah battery.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for this!!!

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, callumboater said:

Trouble is we are only moving one day every two weeks, and a away most of the day, so often no chance to run the engine.

 

You can run the engine at any speed without the gear being engaged and by the sound of it even a couple of hours each evening until 8PM at about 1200 to 1500 RPM. However if you don't have engine heated water because the engine is an air cooled Lister there may be more to it than that, so also what make and model of engine do you have? If you don't know post a photo.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, callumboater said:

Only how much power it can release when fully charged, not how much power it can hold?

 

Power has a very specific meaning, especially with electrics and it only has a passing implication for how much electricity a battery can hold. The unit of power is the Watt, how much electricity a NEW battery can hold is measured in Amp hours (Ah) and it gets less and less as the battery ages or is left even partially discharged for any period of time. The longer it is left the greater the permanent loss of capacity (Ah)

[callumboater]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You can run the engine at any seed without the gear being engaged and by the sound of it even a couple of hours each evening until 8PM at about 1200 to 1500 RPM. However if you don't have engine heated water because the engine is an air cooled Lister there may be more to it than that, so also what make and model of engine do you have? If you don't know post a photo.

Can do, I have Bukh Dv36. It wont be every evening though, maybe 3/4 days  week I can do that.

 

I don't have engine heated water. unfortunately

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Is the fridge a 12v one or a mains one running from an inverter. If the latter how much electricity (Amps) does the inverter use to work itself? A cheap inverter may use more electricity than a decent 12V fridge.

 

There have been three way fridges - gas, 12V DC, or mains. If you run one of these on 12V you might as well just buy new batteries every week. They have no thermostat on the 12V heater and draw about 8 amps so over 24 hours that is 192 Ah about twice what it is safe to expect your pair of batteries to supply (assuming 110Ah batteries)