London boaters fight for moorings

[magnetman]

If this was all joined up thinking it's tempting to think that the idea is to get loads of people heavily invested in the situation then rapidly change the regulations and start taking their money.

 

A bit like giving out free crack until people are addicted. 

 

Good business sense. 

 

Probably not joined up at all but if it is and suddenly living on boats starts costing the same as living in land it's going to be quite an interesting situation. 

 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

This is a really interesting point about the rings. CRT have recently started installing mooring rings in previously unmoorable areas with concrete edges and nowhere to hammer pins in.

 

I and many others have made the point to CRT often and publicly that when they are upgrading towpaths they need to either leave a bit for pins or provide an alternative way to moor boats.

 

Armco or mooring rings on the washwall are fine if they want a clear flat path in certain places.  

 

Bollards or rings on the top edge or a strip of soil left to take pins are fine too in most places.

 

What is not acceptable is edge to edge tarmac with no other provision for long distances.  Where the towpath is very narrow it might be occasionally necessary, but doing it for literally miles isn't good enough.

[TheBiscuits]

34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think that generally 'leisure boaters' that only have an odd week or two and weekends for their holidays do not tend to come out of their marina and moor up for 7-14 days, they tend to cruise most / every day to maximise their holiday.

 

Then you are only looking at part of the picture.  There are many that take their boats out of the marina and leave it on the nice visitor moorings near the pub for an extended period.  Some of them will go to a different pub after a week or two then come back.

 

If your boating style is to keep travelling - and there's nothing wrong with that - then you won't have been in one place long enough to see this.

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, Goliath said:

There will be knock on effects to the rest of us on CRT waters.

With even more 14 day moorings down to 7 day or 48hrs plus charges and booking.

 

But as Alan and Mtb say, there’s little or interest on here.

It started in Llangollen a few years ago, so its not new

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think that generally 'leisure boaters' that only have an odd week or two and weekends for their holidays do not tend to come out of their marina and moor up for 7-14 days, they tend to cruise most / every day to maximise their holiday.

 

Leisure boaters are not mooring-hoggers, it is the infrequent movment of CMers and CCers that tend to stay put for long periods because they have nothing to do and all day to do it.

Perhaps the leisure boaters who have the odd few days will be shuffling about but there’s plenty who live aboard  with home moorings that cruise ‘in season’ and hog moorings like it’s their right. 

So yes some leisure boaters are mooring hoggers just as any other type of boater can be. 
 

What a lovely idea to have all day to do nothing. I love it when it’s like that. 

One of my favourite places to be when I have time to do nothing is the Middlewich Arm. But there I’m restricted to only 2days of doing nothing. 
I’d love to spend 14 days doing nothing at Church Minshall but I can never get on those moorings because it’s always full of the home moorers doing nothing. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Goliath

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It started in Llangollen a few years ago, so its not new

We do get electricity bollards at Llangollen though, there’s at least that. 
 

 

31 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Then you are only looking at part of the picture.  There are many that take their boats out of the marina and leave it on the nice visitor moorings near the pub for an extended period.  Some of them will go to a different pub after a week or two then come back.

 

If your boating style is to keep travelling - and there's nothing wrong with that - then you won't have been in one place long enough to see this.

Alan doesn’t boat on the canals so he won’t see it. 

[TheBiscuits]

30 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Alan doesn’t boat on the canals so he won’t see it. 

 

Yes, I should have said "used to" about his cruising pattern.

 

One I saw was a commodore of an AWCC club who wanted the best mooring for the festival in three weeks so tied up in pride of place on a 48 hour VM.  Two miles from his club moorings ...

 

He quite cheerfully told me that was his plan but at least he wasn't ranting about CCers hogging the moorings at the time.

[Grassman]

7 hours ago, booke23 said:

 As it is most boaters view London as a no go area due to the current mooring situation.

 

I will be 'braving it' doing this in June/July. Mainly the Lea & Stort navigations starting from Limehouse. I will probably have a long first day before finding an overnight mooring but at least it will be daylight until 10.30pm that time of year! After that it's the Paddington Arm/Regents Canal but at least I have a few days moorings at Paddington pre-booked for then.

 

I hope CRT continue with creating more VM's even if they make some of them them pre-bookable and chargeable. Whilst I know there's a danger of increasing the setting of a precedent doing that, I haven't a problem provided it keeps to just London and it doesn't spread to other cities. The first time I booked the Little Venice moorings (in 2018) I was moaning to some of our non-boating friends about having to pay, and they all said where else could you stay in the middle of London for a tenner a night?

 

I appreciate what they're saying but the trouble is I've boated there 20+ years ago when finding moorings was easy and free of charge so I can't pretend there isn't a little feeling of resentment from me in there.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Please let us know how you get on 

Lots of photos too 😃

It’d be great to read an up to date experience 

 

 

[Grassman]

11 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Please let us know how you get on 

Lots of photos too 😃

It’d be great to read an up to date experience 

 

 

Will do 👍. But I thought someone said nobody on here was interested much in the the London canals/rivers  😀

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

We do get electricity bollards at Llangollen though, there’s at least that. 
 

 

Alan doesn’t boat on the canals so he won’t see it. 

 

 

Not now but had almost 40 years doing both canals/rivers and the sea. Always had at least two boats on the go so we could choose whichever we felt like. Its only in the last 2 or 3 years we are now 100% on the sea.

Canals got too much like hard work - I retired in 2005 and want an easy life, dragging along a muddy ditch and then needed to call on the staff to work the locks - too stiff you know !!

 

No fun.

[enigmatic]

8 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

I think they should make all towpath moorings 48hrs only with exceptions for stoppages etc - It seems to work on the Wey and Basingstoke and then give everybody free say 4 scratch cards each year allowing for further stays  of up to 14 days with additional  cards available at extra cost on a  scale. Of course this could all be done electronically as seems to be happening with parking.

Is this a strategy to get people to pay for winter moorings?

 

I enjoyed Anglian Waterways in the middle of summer where every mooring was 48hrs, but there are times of year when moving every other day often isn't fun.

[magnetman]

CRT did do winter moorings on London canals up until a few years ago. Probably about ten years ago? Time flies.

 

I'm not quite sure what happened (someone will know) but it was either issues with local authorities and residential use of craft without PP or may have been other mooring providers objecting to the competition. 

 

Seemed like a good idea, people are happy to pay, but towpath based winter mooring option is no longer offered in the central areas of the capital. 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by magnetman
Edit to remove racist sex preferences

[Arthur Marshall]

5 hours ago, Goliath said:

 

One of my favourite places to be when I have time to do nothing is the Middlewich Arm. But there I’m restricted to only 2days of doing nothing. 
I’d love to spend 14 days doing nothing at Church Minshall but I can never get on those moorings because it’s always full of the home moorers doing nothing. 

Only two of us there this week - me at the end where you get close to the bank and one the far end, obviously been there a while. All the rest empty. 

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

It’s hard to feel sorry for folk who’ve signed up to CC and move in accordance with the laws/bylaws, then admit they’ve been doing the opposite for quite some time and are upset now the party is over.

 

Yes, but these days with our identity culture everyone acts like a victim. All you have to do is buy a boat and then pretend that you're somehow part of a deep rooted culture that's been doing things this way for centuries. Most of these kids have only been on boats for a couple of years.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

CRT did do winter moorings on London canals up until a few years ago. Probably about ten years ago? Time flies.

 

 

Interestingly the winter moorings at Great Bedwyn on the K&A which CRT have traditionally handed over to fee-paying WMers for five months of the year didn't happen this winter. Proper CCers had use of the VMs all winter. A major improvement IMO.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

CRT did do winter moorings on London canals up until a few years ago. Probably about ten years ago? Time flies.

There were winter moorings at Uxbridge over winter 2017/18. I remember arriving there in Spring 2018 and the signs were still up, even though they had finished a week or two earlier.

[dmr]

Winter Moorings certainly still happen. Maybe they are no longer done in really busy places like London and Bedwyn?   The NBTA did threaten to mount a legal challenge (a classic case of shooting themselves in the foot?) so maybe CRT do not do winter moorings in the NBTA strongholds????

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

CRT did do winter moorings on London canals up until a few years ago. Probably about ten years ago?

 

2021/2022 winter moorings list is here:

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/42374-winter-moorings-location-and-price-bands.pdf

 

Some of them sound quite London to me ...

[magnetman]

I probably should have said "inner London".. 

 

The closest to central London on that list is Kensal Green which while being in zone 2 on the transport is actually quite a suburban area.

 

It's also on the Paddington arm rather than the Regent's section of the GU. 

 

It does seem to be the case there are no CRT winter moorings in inner London in the sense of places like Islington, Camden, Hackney etc. The Regent's section and Limehouse cut have no towpath winter moorings. They did until a few years ago but it was stopped. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, dmr said:

Winter Moorings certainly still happen. Maybe they are no longer done in really busy places like London and Bedwyn?   The NBTA did threaten to mount a legal challenge (a classic case of shooting themselves in the foot?) so maybe CRT do not do winter moorings in the NBTA strongholds????

 

One of the 'associations' (was is the NBTA ?) legal advice determined that the provision of Winter moorings, and 'roving mooring permits' were illegal and in effect were the boater just paying protection money to allow them to overstay.

 

From memory it was something like the use of a fixed area for mooring for more than 30 days meant it was a change of use from 'casual mooring' to a more permanent mooring and planning permission was needed. It was also questioned as to the need for 'residential use' planning permission, or, if 'leisure use' planning permission was needed.

 

NABO did note that C&RTs requirement for a "boat with no home mooring" is bona fide navigation throughout the period of the licence. If the boater takes a mooring, then it is no longer a "CCing" boat and it has become a boat with a home mooring - ergo the place it is attached is a mooring which needs permission to exist.

 

Extract :

 

Of further interest NABO noted that http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/4434.pdf paragraph 57 under the heading “Throughout the period … without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days …”

CRTs legal team stated  : 57. Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the 1995 Act additionally requires that the “bona fide navigation” is “throughout” the period of the licence, which would ordinarily be for a period of 12 months, but will be for at least 3 months. This again emphasises the requirement of a genuine passage or transit for the entirety of the duration of the licence.  

 In NABO’s view the above defence would appear to strongly argue against the case of the introduction of Roving or Community Mooring Permits as advocated by CRT or indeed Towpath Winter Mooring Permits.

[cuthound]

On 04/04/2022 at 15:32, ditchcrawler said:

It started in Llangollen a few years ago, so its not new

 

Indeed, was a fiver a night in the 90's and still only £6 per night (although you do get free water and electricity for that).

 

Multiply that by the 4,000? boats around London and CRT could generate an additional£8,760,000 per annum.

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Multiply that by the 4,000? boats around London and CRT could generate an additional£8,760,000 per annum.

 

 

That'd cover the costs of a couple more Directors, and maybe even pay for a few moorings and a tap. Adding a sanni station may be pushing it a bit tho.

[cuthound]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That'd cover the costs of a couple more Directors, and maybe even pay for a few moorings and a tap. Adding a sanni station may be pushing it a bit tho.

 

I didn't realise each additional tap and/or sanni station needed it's own director .. 😂🤣

Edited April 5, 2022 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, was a fiver a night in the 90's and still only £6 per night (although you do get free water and electricity for that).

 

Multiply that by the 4,000? boats around London and CRT could generate an additional£8,760,000 per annum.

But you get free water at every CRT water point, well not free, it came out of that £900 you gave them.

I have never moored overnight in Llangollen in the summer months since. If I want a marina mooring I will happily pay for it, likewise electricity, but I expect to moor on the towpath paid for out of what I have already given them.