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London boaters fight for moorings


Boaty Jo

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36 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Over population leads to friction, anger and people having to fight for resources. 

 

The settled population of the UK isn't growing, it's pretty much stable, so the problem is obvious. 

The census showed the population to have increased since 2011. 

 

  • On Census Day, 21 March 2021, the size of the usual resident population in England and Wales was 59,597,300 (56,489,800 in England and 3,107,500 in Wales); this was the largest population ever recorded through a census in England and Wales.

  • The population of England and Wales grew by more than 3.5 million (6.3%) since the last census in 2011, when it was 56,075,912.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationandhouseholdestimatesenglandandwales/census2021

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37 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

I'm not a member and know nothing about their principles EXCEPT that apparently they get the blame for anything connected with CCers that isn't approved of. IF they are a group that try and bend the rules into "rights" then in principle I'm not in favour - as explained earlier this historically always ends up with rules being tightened unnecessarily to everyone's detriment. In general I believe people should follow the rules and be nice, but then I don't live in London and recognise that with the overcrowding there, those that do end up with nowhere to moor, just like the holiday people so what can they do?  Yep, I know, move out of London and that would be what I'd do. No need to apologise, it's probably just another case of you deciding what I think so that you can argue with me to make your point.

 

Exactly, I'm glad we agree on that. If those boats are licenced, the board must be satisfied?

 

I refer you to the first part of this post. If they play by the rules - nowhere to moor. I'm afraid it's likely to be a case of if you can't beat them join them anarchy on the London canals. Before you incorrectly opine that I approve of all that and start arguing with me - NO I DON'T. Good, that's clear. What I do is recognise reality. That's the reality isn't it? You don't like it, 2,000 London CCers disagree and the board are satisfied with their behaviour. But you say - it's against the spirit of the rules. They say - sod the spirit, we're trying to have a life here and if we have to duck, dive and circumvent unenforceable rules to do it, them that's the rule's fault. 

 

A friend of mine used to employ the locals who were bought up in a different culture, a non-UK culture with a different religion, but they were the majority of the population, just the locals. So, one day he finds he had a £2,000 telephone bill (this is the early eighties). It turned out one of his apprentice employees had been phoning his relatives abroad. Just a young guy so my friend went to have it out with his father. The father could not understand his point of view. It was all my friend's fault for putting temptation in his way. He should have banned overseas calls/locked the telephone. What did he expect! To him, it was like leaving the keys in your Jag and expecting nobody to steal it. Maybe he had a point, sort of. Never trust anyone?

 

And, there we have what the UK has become or is fast moving towards. It's acceptable for people and companies to cheat basically, unless they get caught or someone does something about it. Eon have a department set up absolutely to avoid repaying money they've managed to cheat their customers out of. I know this. It took me 3 months and threats to inform the fraud squad to move them from "we owe you nothing" to a £3,500 rebate. That was hard, hard work. I feel sorry for anyone who can't defend themselves against that lot and their ilk. Insurance companies do the same. Banks attract investment then immediately cut the rates. Cheating has been normalised.

 

What's the point of all the above? I'm trying to say that you should not be surprised, in the UK today, that a large section of society do not give a sh!t about rules and life has taught them to be like this. It's a sorry state that we find ourselves in. Our politicians are not blameless in this drift away from the British notion of fair play, but it is what it is.

 

The "British notion of fair play" is and always was a myth. Cheating has been a way of life here as anywhere, from wartime black markets to deliberate starvation in the good old Empire. What else was the great sell-offs of nationalised industries? Our sainted Royal family demanding amendments to tax law to benefit themselves? The only difference now is that we are less obsequious and know about it, or at least some of it.

Those gaming the system have finally learned from their "betters", to the detriment of us all.

Oh, and in every office I ever worked in, everybody used the office phone for personal calls, including abroad. Not just those of a "non-UK culture and different religion". Good grief, that's almost as bad as Waterworks' little bit of covert racism.

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46 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

.............................2,000 London CCers disagree and the board are satisfied with their behaviour. But you say - it's against the spirit of the rules. They say - sod the spirit, we're trying to have a life here and if we have to duck, dive and circumvent unenforceable rules to do it, them that's the rule's fault.

 

 

I suspect the board are far from satisfied with the non-movement of a great many of CCers, especially in London, but they're simply outresourced and unable to properly police a deliberately vague piece of law, so they continue to renew licences for the marginal cases and focus on a handful of boaters where they can clearly demonstrate they're disobeying the rules. If there was a neat solution to the problem, it would have been fixed by now, but there isn't.

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Oh, and in every office I ever worked in, everybody used the office phone for personal calls, including abroad. Not just those of a "non-UK culture and different religion". Good grief, that's almost as bad as Waterworks' little bit of covert racism.

Now you're being silly, it was a cultural thing. Do you have a problem with admitting there are different cultures around the world and some of them moved lock stock and barrel to the UK? I don't. A simple meeting of different cultures. I don't think you'd have lasted long running up a phone bill that was 20x your wages in a tiny company that didn't make that much profit in a month. Nor do I think you'd have been baffled that it was a problem, nor blamed the company for letting you near a phone.

9 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Those gaming the system have finally learned from their "betters", to the detriment of us all.

And that, was my point. Everyone's at it so it's no surprise that CCer's do the same in London without any guilt - it's normalised behaviour.

10 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I suspect the board are far from satisfied with the non-movement of a great many of CCers, especially in London, but they're simply outresourced and unable to properly police a deliberately vague piece of law, so they continue to renew licences for the marginal cases and focus on a handful of boaters where they can clearly demonstrate they're disobeying the rules. If there was a neat solution to the problem, it would have been fixed by now, but there isn't.

2,000 licences x £1,000 = £2M. They have the resources to police it but would rather put the money in the coffers. It's a choice.

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8 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

Now you're being silly, it was a cultural thing. Do you have a problem with admitting there are different cultures around the world and some of them moved lock stock and barrel to the UK? I don't. A simple meeting of different cultures. I don't think you'd have lasted long running up a phone bill that was 20x your wages in a tiny company that didn't make that much profit in a month.

 

You are talking cobblers if you are suggesting that only immigrants employed in the UK defraud their employers.

 

Is that really what you are suggesting, and if not what is it you are?

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@Captain Pegg

 

Yes. I think a lot of people would reconsider living on a boat on towpath if they were not allowed to stay in one place for 14 days. 

 

I may be wrong but suspect that moving every day or two would be a nightmare for a lot of people. Even 14 days is seen as quite arduous by some and a "chore". 

 

Obviously it is a huge pleasure for some to move every day but that would be a tiny minority. 

 

ETA not sure where the boats would go in this hypothetical situation. Second hand market could get a bit iffy. 

 

I do know this won't happen. 

Edited by magnetman
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20 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

You are talking cobblers if you are suggesting that only immigrants employed in the UK defraud their employers.

 

Is that really what you are suggesting, and if not what is it you are?

I'm suggesting that viewing it as fraud is missing the point. It was not fraud, it was cultural misunderstanding based on "if I can get away with it, it's not my fault you're an idiot." I don't object actually, it's not racist and I don't suggest that at all, you just like to look for an angle to shoot from.

 

Here's another. As young travellers in 1981 we arrived at Cairo airport at midnight. Taxi to the hotel - £50 - you must be joking! - No, it's a long way, £50. and so on. Daft enough to pay it? Fine. After 10 minutes - OK, I'll show you where to catch the bus and which bus to get on. I'll talk to the driver for you too so he knows where you want to get off. !0p. It's a cultural thing. EVERYTHING in Egypt was like that, it was a really fun place to be, I spent 2 months there, the people are LOVELY, but it's different. A fool and his money are easily parted on every single transaction, everything must be bartered for. In the UK we were used to going into a shop, seeing the price and paying it. One is not better. To notice and discuss that different cultures have different ways of looking at things is not racist. It would be pretty stupid to judge different cultures by one's own. That would be racist but there's no judgement from me.

 

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The same number of boats moving around the same moorings once a year or once a week will result in the exact same mooring availability for everyone ?

58 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The "British notion of fair play" is and always was a myth. Cheating has been a way of life here as anywhere, from wartime black markets to deliberate starvation in the good old Empire. What else was the great sell-offs of nationalised industries? Our sainted Royal family demanding amendments to tax law to benefit themselves? The only difference now is that we are less obsequious and know about it, or at least some of it.

Those gaming the system have finally learned from their "betters", to the detriment of us all.

Oh, and in every office I ever worked in, everybody used the office phone for personal calls, including abroad. Not just those of a "non-UK culture and different religion". Good grief, that's almost as bad as Waterworks' little bit of covert racism.

Pointing to the fact that the population of London has grown isn't racism, you poor little angry snowflake.

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5 minutes ago, waterworks said:

The same number of boats moving around the same moorings once a year or once a week will result in the exact same mooring availability for everyone ?

That seems to be a mathematical certainty but it does not take account of the reality. 

 

People live on boats on towpaths in popular areas because they are allowed to stay for two weeks. 

 

If they had to move the boat every day they would not choose to live on a boat because they would not have time to do it. 

 

I don't mean moving ten feet. I mean actually moving the boat. 

 

I have come across people who view moving the boat every two weeks as a bit of a nasty but necessary thing to have to do. 

 

These things happen. 

 

Similarly with people who use the 14 day rule as a way to avoid having a mooring. 

 

They would get moorings or if they can't afford to spend the time to move the boat or money on a mooring they would not have a boat.

 

I'm not that bothered either way in my ivory tower but it does seem interesting.

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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1 hour ago, Slow and Steady said:

hat's the reality isn't it? You don't like it, 2,000 London CCers disagree and the board are satisfied with their behaviour.

 

C&RTs 2020 survey of London boaters identified that there were (are) over 7170 boaters with C&RT licences in London & the South East

 

A couple of figures from previous boat surveys :

 

In 2017 we had to remove 101 boats from our canals and rivers as they were unlicensed or in breach of our terms and conditions.

 

In 2019/20 105 boats were removed from our canals and rivers as they were ulicensed or in breach of our terms and condituons.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

I'm suggesting that viewing it as fraud is missing the point. It was not fraud, it was cultural misunderstanding based on "if I can get away with it, it's not my fault you're an idiot." I don't object actually, it's not racist and I don't suggest that at all, you just like to look for an angle to shoot from.

 

Ok if you want to get pedantic about words then.

 

Are you suggesting that only immigrants to the UK would steal from their employer.

 

Yes stealing encompasses the notion of making unauthorised personal telephone calls at your employers expense.

 

Im not looking for anything to shoot at, it was you introduced the issue when you raised the cultural aspect.

 

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

I think we all agree that just moving for the sake of it -- especially in the middle of nowhere -- makes no sense, there's no need for it or benefit to everyone.

 

In crowded areas together with the CCing rules it should mean that popular in-demand moorings can't be permanently hogged by a few boats sitting on them all the time, but then this would mean people following the rules and moving away from the honeypot areas regularly -- and this is what people using the boats as cheap flats don't want to do.

 

Even so, if the short-term/48-hour/VMs were used as intended there wouldn't be a problem for visitors, but that's not what is happening either. It's not just a problem in London, the K&A is the same, and there are other popular places like Braunston and Whaley Bridge and many others where mooring is difficult for visitors, and for sure part of the problem is boats overstaying on VMs because I've seen them. The system relies on people behaving nicely and following the rules, but nowadays a lot of people take the "I'm all right Jack" attitude and ignore them, the problem is basically selfishness.

 

So right now nobody is happy -- people living on boats don't see why they should move in the sticks, and don't want to move in the honeypots, and visitors have trouble finding moorings there, and everyone is blaming everyone else (including CART) because that's what people do when they're unhappy... 😞

 

And please leave the snide digs out, the only reason I haven't got a boat is that it's not ready yet 😉

 

It's got nothing to do with your boat ownership status. You are telling others they are wrong if they believe there is no conflict between boaters in London but are doing so not from your boating experience but from your cycling experience. I don't think it's healthy for canal people in general to be split into factions which is why I brought it up. If your boat had been delivered but hadn't made it within the M25 it would be no different.

 

Maybe it's in the interpretation of what you meant by the word but it takes two to have a conflict. I know of people who have cruised through London, plus me who skirted the edges, who managed it without conflict. My observations of the bit I did, and other parts of the GU on which there are large numbers of moored boats, is that if those that don't really want to move stay tied to the bank they are a lot less bother to those on longer cruises than when they move begrudgingly.

 

There are of course other reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to stay tied to the bank, but those should be of interest to residents of the area concerned more than other boaters.

 

As a hire boater have you hung around Braunston's 48 hour and 14 day moorings to know that they are full of overstayers? I pitched up at the 14 day moorings once and found a spot with no problem; then left my boat there unattended for the next 16 days. Perhaps you clocked it. I also arrived there at 1930 on a Saturday evening four weeks ago and moored a 57' boat.

 

My genuine view of 14 day visitor moorings is that they are often sought by liveaboards who deliberately stay for 14 days. That's allowed so you can't argue. Same applies to Arthur who seems to think that if a boat is not occupied it isn't OK to leave it on such a mooring for 14 days.

 

I can't help thinking you see other boaters as a problem.

 

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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8 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The claim that you are on a continuous cruise, shifting your boat over a weekend every few weeks when you can be bothered, while spending the bulk of your life in a house is nonsense, but it works out nice and cheap as a way to avoid mooring fees.

It's also the only way most of us get to visit the waterways which are more than a few days boating away from the home mooring.

I CCd Belfast for 3 years, taking a different (private) winter mooring each winter. In that time my travels ranged from Hertford and Bishops Stortford to Preston Brook and Sowerby Bridge, including 4 passages of the full length of the Rochdale Canal. The only time I stopped in one spot for more than 14 days (other than the winter moorings) was when the Rochdale was closed due to gate failure, and CRT agreed that it was reasonable for full length boats (there were several of us) to stay at Littleborough rather than shuttling back and forth between Littleborough and the other side of Rochdale.

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30 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Ok if you want to get pedantic about words then.

 

Are you suggesting that only immigrants to the UK would steal from their employer.

 

Yes stealing encompasses the notion of making unauthorised personal telephone calls at your employers expense.

 

Im not looking for anything to shoot at, it was you introduced the issue when you raised the cultural aspect.

 

You are ridiculous, go and pick at someone else. lol

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Just now, Slow and Steady said:

You are ridiculous, go and pick at someone else. lol

 

Is that your best answer?

 

The truth hurts though doesnt  it?

 

You were talking utter nonsense.

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37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C&RTs 2020 survey of London boaters identified that there were (are) over 7170 boaters with C&RT licences in London & the South East

 

A couple of figures from previous boat surveys :

 

In 2017 we had to remove 101 boats from our canals and rivers as they were unlicensed or in breach of our terms and conditions.

 

In 2019/20 105 boats were removed from our canals and rivers as they were ulicensed or in breach of our terms and condituons.

 

 

I was trying not to exaggerate. Google thinks there are 4,000 boats on London canals and half have permanent moorings.

Looks like CRT go for roughly 100 a year over the entire country and hope the example will have an effect?

Just now, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Is that your best answer?

 

The truth hurts though doesnt  it?

 

You were talking utter nonsense.

Sad unhappy little man. lol

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Just now, Slow and Steady said:

Sad unhappy little man. lol

 

Oh how very droll. Very happy fella.

 

I just like to test out folk that post cobblers on the internet.

 

And you were posting cobblers. If you can back up your claim feel free to have another go though.

 

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1 hour ago, waterworks said:

The same number of boats moving around the same moorings once a year or once a week will result in the exact same mooring availability for everyone ?

Pointing to the fact that the population of London has grown isn't racism, you poor little angry snowflake.

Stating that it's problems with any growth are caused purely by immigrants is, however. It really must be quite unpleasant in your head. No wonder you whinge like a spoiled brat when called on it.

 

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10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

It's got nothing to do with your boat ownership status. You are telling others they are wrong if they believe there is no conflict between boaters in London but are doing so not from your boating experience but from your cycling experience. I don't think it's healthy for canal people in general to be split into factions which is why I brought it up. If your boat had been delivered but hadn't made it within the M25 it would be no different.

 

Maybe it's in the interpretation of what you meant by the word but it takes two to have a conflict. I know of people who have cruised through London, plus me who skirted the edges, who managed it without conflict. My observations of the bit I did, and other parts of the GU on which there are large numbers of moored boats, is that if those that don't really want to move stay tied to the bank they are a lot less bother to those on longer cruises than when they move begrudgingly.

 

There are of course other reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to stay tied to the bank, but those should be of interest to residents of the area concerned more than other boaters.

 

As a hire boater have you hung around Braunston's 48 hour and 14 day moorings to know that they are full of overstayers? I pitched up at the 14 day moorings once and found a spot with no problem; then left my boat there unattended for the next 16 days. Perhaps you clocked it. I also arrived there at 1930 on a Saturday evening four weeks ago and moored a 57' boat.

 

My genuine view of 14 day visitor moorings is that they are often sought by liveaboards who deliberately stay for 14 days. That's allowed so you can't argue. Same applies to Arthur who seems to think that if a boat is not occupied it isn't OK to leave it on such a mooring for 14 days.

 

I can't help thinking you see other boaters as a problem.

 

I see *some* other boaters as a problem, specifically the ones who ignore the rules about mooring and CCing, who block short-term and VMs from the use they're intended for, and prevent any kind of fair access for boaters in honeypot areas.

 

Regarding busy places like Braunston, of course I'm not saying there are never any mooring spaces, or that all boats don't move on as required -- but if I go past a place twice a week apart and the same boats are moored in exactly the same 48h mooring (which has happened many times when I've been looking to moor) the obvious reason is that they haven't moved.

 

In life generally there's a conflict of beliefs and attitudes and interests between those who generally believe in obeying the law and following rules and those who don't and will do anything they can get away with if it's to their advantage. The canals are no different, and no amount of pretending that boaters are one big happy family will change that... 😞

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I see *some* other boaters as a problem, specifically the ones who ignore the rules about mooring and CCing, who block short-term and VMs from the use they're intended for, and prevent any kind of fair access for boaters in honeypot areas.

 

Regarding busy places like Braunston, of course I'm not saying there are never any mooring spaces, or that all boats don't move on as required -- but if I go past a place twice a week apart and the same boats are moored in exactly the same 48h mooring (which has happened many times when I've been looking to moor) the obvious reason is that they haven't moved.

 

In life generally there's a conflict of beliefs and attitudes and interests between those who generally believe in obeying the law and following rules and those who don't and will do anything they can get away with if it's to their advantage. The canals are no different, and no amount of pretending that boaters are one big happy family will change that... 😞

 

No one pretends it's one big happy family but that's a long way from my issue which is that discord amongst boaters is something that is negative for all users.

 

Of course there are people that don't abide by the rules in any walk of life but they don't prevent most of us from doing what we want to do in life in general and the same is true on the canals. It's a more enclosed environment so perhaps it's more obvious on the canals but all you achieve by getting worked up about other people who aren't directly preventing you doing what you wish to do, is to spoil your own enjoyment.

 

The most likely reason you'll struggle to moor on any short stay VM - at least outside of London - is folk leaving git gaps.

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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17 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Alperton is four miles from Kensal Green so that's a big difference.

 

So only cruisable by the visitor if pre-planned and booked? 

Thinking a bit more, I reckon the serious congestion starts between Alperton and Kensal Green.

 

When I went through London as a visitor, I pre-planned and booked and I'm very glad I did.  You might get away with it and find somewhere to squeeze in (more so with a small boat), but I personally wouldn't risk it.  I genuinely don't know how the regulars down there do it.  I've heard tales about designated move days, when they all swap places, so maybe that's it?

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